71 replies to this topic

[Zirconium Kaze]

dario03, on 07 September 2020 - 02:25 PM, said:

In my experience there has been way to many lock-on weapons around lately. An lrm boat or two on a team is fine but lately it seems like 50-75% of teams are lock ons. Which might explain how we get these threads. Players expect the games oddly balanced streaks to auto win vs lights for them but when ecm/stealth (or min range on atms) stop that from happening they don't know what to do because they haven't learned how to shoot lights with anything else.

Na, it's just the game's terrible hit reg and net coding. High speed + latency armor not provided by the game. Even streak srms seem to do little damage sometimes because of lag/hitreg magic. When the game isn't providing them lag/hitreg armor they get put down like they're supposed to. Furthermore, lights in general are only a threat when their target is engaged with an even greater threat exposing their backside. Lights that tend to score high also tend to be ignored. That speaks volumes of who the real threats are because if someone is engaged with something like a bloodasp and they turn around to go after the light that needs like 3 to 5 volleys to kill him from behind, they'll be put down in one volley by the bloodasp from behind. Every time I have gotten behind someone as close as a light pilot in something with actual fire power, they go from full back ct armor to dead in less than 2 seconds. I even had a game in a dire wolf where I got behind like half of the enemy team on a flank. I got 4 kills in less than a minute stricly because I alphaed them down from behind (over 300 meters away at that). I get in my flea and not only do I have to get closer to be effective, but I need more time as my first alpha strike will never put them down from behind.

If PGI would fix their game to make it where when I graphically see a 70 damage alpha strike go into a flea count as 70 damage, then they seriously wouldn't be a problem ever. It's the combination of hitreg bugs, odd latency issues, and speed that makes them seem op. I have even had matches in frozen city where I'm in the middle of the enemy wildly shooting and zig zagging in between them like an animal and their odd net code makes it where my mech moves and slides all over the place without my input because of whatever is going on with their net code. When my guy is teleporting around because of this odd bug, I wonder if the enemy team firing me sees their lasers and crap hitting my flea but only seeing like 2 points of damage being applied. I also did very well that round. People who claim there isn't hitreg/netcode problems are ignorant. Just the other day I even got a 60 alpha strike on a flea square in its ct. He literally darts towards me and off the side and all that actually applied was enough to change his armor a different color. I imagine on his screen he began running while I took the half a second to center my shot. Regardless, If the game actually counted the shot, he would have died. Like that pirahana in another game that came running to me in a straight line. All it took was one salvo at over 200 meters and I didn't even take the time to aim ct.

Edited by Zirconium Kaze, 08 September 2020 - 07:34 AM.

[Mochyn Pupur]

"It's an outstanding mech but not for the reasons you think; People can't aim, so you can legit just power through people and destroy them. The flea is meant to be a aggro/distraction mech; You tickle their rears, they turn around, your team (hopefully) destroys them for being distracted. You use it to break down LRM mechs that are pooping on your team (figuratively and literally), and gimp their DPS via side torso strip, then you move onto the next target."

Actually, you don't know what I'm thinking, nor can you read and understand sarcasm, a noticeable failing in people now-a-days. If you take time, you will see that I haven't said it's an outstanding mech, just one that fits nicely into the game mechanics that makes it a higher threat to mechs that have steadily been damaged by successive nerfs or "improvements" over the years; and no, I don't mean the IIc Jenners, all Jenners took a hit on the rescaling.

If anyone can find the thread where someone did a great job of showing the impact of rescaling at that time, I'd love to see it again.

In the end, all you've done is agree with me, so thank you; next time, try not to agree with me like my wife and daughter do by arguing the same point without thinking first

[Capt Deadpool]

I think most can agree that whatever positive attributes the flea possesses does not remotely place it into the OP tier. Particularly after the soup que merger where MM doesn't seem to give a sh!t about matching like weight classes on opposite teams, causing players who enjoy light mech gameplay to inordinately gimp their team in comparison to dropping in a light in old solo que.

But maybe what positive attributes the flea does have allows some players to play the game in a unique/interesting/fun way in which their impact cannot necessarily be implied by damage or match score (Scout Derek listed a number of them). I know for a fact that I can contribute significantly to wins with under 200 damage, and likewise can contribute significantly to losses with 600+ damage (if that damage was mostly from strikes), depending on how the games plays out, how the enemy is defending against me, and knowing that there are plenty of games where we would have won if I would have just brought some high alpha machine and contributed to pumping damage into CT's. And though I like to win, I play this game for fun, not money, and the flea is a giggle machine.

For those who struggle hitting the flea, please remember, despite the higher learning curve of the game, the basic skillset has a significantly lower skill ceiling than Counter-strike 1.6, CS:GO, and a wide number of existing e-sport titles. I have no problem hitting other fleas myself at all (in fact I generally see them as easy prey), and neither do plenty of other posters in this thread, and I know exactly which players in-game will insta-leg me as soon as they see me no matter what speed I am going, and I make damn sure I do not cross their line of sight if they are fielding a PPFLD loadout. I promise you, if you have the desire to improve your aim by practicing (there are training apps that can help you), asking questions, watching videos, and making sure your controls are set up correctly you can achieve the aim of top level players, and fleas will trouble you no more.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 08 September 2020 - 10:14 AM.

[Kamikaze Viking]

TL:DR : 150kph+ = Void Armour

[Darian DelFord]

Kamikaze Viking, on 08 September 2020 - 04:22 PM, said:

TL:DR : 150kph+ = Void Armour

You were Saying.....






And





Whoops.... Found another one....





Wait... Wait... Wait..... Another










Hate to Say it.... but Skill is greater than any Lag Shield you THINK a light mech has.

[Zirconium Kaze]

Darian DelFord, on 08 September 2020 - 07:19 PM, said:

You were Saying.....






And





Whoops.... Found another one....





Wait... Wait... Wait..... Another










Hate to Say it.... but Skill is greater than any Lag Shield you THINK a light mech has.

When I used to be a christian I too used to cherry pick things.

[RickySpanish]

^ bruuuutal, lol.

BTW command wheel -> target spotted as a Light slinks back into cover will ruin their day. Hardest thing to do is leading something with Masc unless it doesn't know that You Know.

Edited by RickySpanish, 08 September 2020 - 08:29 PM.

[JediPanther]

PeppaPig, on 08 September 2020 - 09:19 AM, said:

... a higher threat to mechs that have steadily been damaged by successive nerfs or "improvements" over the years; and no, I don't mean the IIc Jenners, all Jenners took a hit on the rescaling.

If anyone can find the thread where someone did a great job of showing the impact of rescaling at that time, I'd love to see it again.

In the end, all you've done is agree with me, so thank you; next time, try not to agree with me like my wife and daughter do by arguing the same point without thinking first

Behold the NERF of REscaling the lights:



So when do we REscale the fleas?

[Nightbird]

JediPanther, on 08 September 2020 - 08:37 PM, said:

Behold the NERF of REscaling the lights:



So when do we REscale the fleas?

There won't be a rescale. PGI scales by front and side profile, not volume. The fleas are the same size as the locusts which are correct according to the bad scale formula.

https://mwomercs.com...metric-scaling/

[Darian DelFord]

Zirconium Kaze, on 08 September 2020 - 07:59 PM, said:

When I used to be a christian I too used to cherry pick things.

You'll have to explain to me how I am cherry picking my own deaths. Those are just prime examples, I have many many many other examples of me dying.

I would be more than happy to post them, to show you just how easy it is to kill a light.

[General Solo]

Darian DelFord, on 08 September 2020 - 07:19 PM, said:

You were Saying.....






And





Whoops.... Found another one....





Wait... Wait... Wait..... Another










Hate to Say it.... but Skill is greater than any Lag Shield you THINK a light mech has.

Your from Florida
The same continent as the server.
They lack void armor on my OZ local server

But I dont get many games there, most my games are NA
HSR has a hard time with the fastest mechs, highish player ping plus opponents ping plus high speed mean bad hit reg

I can kill Locusts and Pirhanas pretty easy on NA but Fleas and Commandoes give me more trouble.
Difficult to one shot unlike the Locusts and Pirhanas
Sure aim for the hip will wear them down, but when 3 come at you the one shot comes in handy and is missed.

[Mech Walesa]

this is why you should be scared of a good flea pilot
1291dmg pure lazor dmg


i find them borderline. there is no better light for me. ecm, speed (177 with masc), 5 med lasers (4 in arms!). i'd love to undust my LCT-PB but it lacks 1 lazor and arms. +20kph sustained cruise speed is not enough to jump ship.
a good flea can win a match (by distracting and doing dmg) but a team of 2/3 fleas is just ridiculous

[LordNothing]

Zirconium Kaze, on 08 September 2020 - 07:59 PM, said:

When I used to be a christian I too used to cherry pick things.

lights walk a thin line between feast and famine. you are always one clean shot from an early grave. but if you survive you will feast on the backs of fatmechs and kill the wounded with brutal efficacy. its a simple case of high risk high reward, and it seems only the good pilots are willing to take risks.

with assaults you have armor and that buys you time, not a lot of time because it will be front loaded, but some. certainly enough to either deal with a squirrel or evade until help arrives. most assault pilots live in a sad little world where squirrels are not a threat (interestingly enough these are the ones light pilots recognize and exploit for immediate cookies). once you realize that the power dynamic is circular, the most important skill an assault pilot needs is the ability to deal with light mechs and that starts in the mechlab*. knowing how to deal with the greatest threats to your mech is the key to dominating the battlefield.

* i think the assaults with lower hardpoints and cockpits are better. the anihilator has a really high cockpit and fairly high primary hardpoints in relation to 20 tonners, its better to use teamwork tactics to keep lights off of you with that one. dires and king crabs on the other hand have those low cockpits and low slung arms almost right at flea level. it costs you the ability to hill hump, but the first battle is staying alive. anything with lower arm actuators is also good as you can aim those instantly, good place to stick your lb10, srms or your biggest pulse lasers. for weapons go with short duration lasers (pulse usually, though ive seen others with really good quirks), lb autocannons, streaks (srms are better imho). some swear by hgauss, and those can instagib lights if used right. big thing is you have armor and it dont, so take your time and dont overheat.

Edited by LordNothing, 10 September 2020 - 01:00 AM.

[Isolar]

It's not just the fleas but a handful of mechs that make queue not fun, ruin the experience. Putting aside hit-reg issues, everyone here (if they are honest) has experienced fleas, piranhas, locusts, commandos running through the center of your entire team, clumsily running into your legs, getting shot repeatedly, yet none of the damage sticks. These mechs are so fast and agile, so small, lacking firepower, yet, they are the only practical choices for a light harasser mech. Mechs you rarely see are jenners, people can make them work, to great effect, but we all consider a pirahna more dangerous. With the flea side by side to the jenner, the flea is about as tall and wide as a jenner's leg, probably taking up about the same amount of volume. The flea is about belt height to a commando, the commando is about belt height to a wolfhound. The scaling is messed up, some mechs apparently were made to be huge targets and the ones that get abused are missed by the devs and get all the love from the player base. I know the main defense of light pilots, is tonnage and weapons and 'pilot skill', but you should come clean with it and admit that you suck (plain truth), you COULD NOT perform the same in a jenner or an incubus, using the largest engine on either. Its not about speed or maneuvering or skill. The problem is scaling unequally across the board. I understand smaller tonnage = smaller, the jenner and flea comparison spells this out easiest, the flea should be 3/4 the size of a jenner not 1/4 scale. The piranha should be 3/4 the size of an incubus not 1/4.

On top of all this, these lights with tiny moving hitboxes work as a hard counter for any laser equipped mechs, especially clan, because of burn time, heat, and damage were nerfed across the board. The laser nerf has to be the worst pandering to noobs the dev team has ever done. Doesn't mean I don't understand why this was done, but the consequences just breaks it, the logic of the game and lore of the battletech universe.

tl;dr flea, piranha, locusts, pilots are scrubs. These 20 ton recon mechs break the immersive feel of the game, especially, when they are unafraid to stroll through your entire team, get shot by EVERYONE, then, not only does it live, it is routinely the last mech standing, dragging the game out for five minutes longer than it needed to be.

[John Bronco]

Literally everyone agrees the jenner is way too ******* big. That proves nothing.

[Nightbird]

I don't agree that the Jenner is too big, it's just fine as a mech. Above average chassis.

[thievingmagpi]

Isolar, on 10 September 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

It's not just the fleas but a handful of mechs that make queue not fun, ruin the experience. Putting aside hit-reg issues, everyone here (if they are honest) has experienced fleas, piranhas, locusts, commandos running through the center of your entire team, clumsily running into your legs, getting shot repeatedly, yet none of the damage sticks.

Sure.

And I've also experienced turning a corner and getting 1-shot by a dual heavy gauss mech.

And I've also experienced getting farmed at 1200m by an AC2 rifleman.

What's your point?

Isolar, on 10 September 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

These mechs are so fast and agile, so small, lacking firepower, yet, they are the only practical choices for a light harasser mech.

6 MPL K9
7 ML Javelin
6 ML Osiris
6 ERML Incubus
6 ERML Wolfhound
6 ERML Kit Fox
1 HLL 6 ERML Cougar

etc

Isolar, on 10 September 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

Mechs you rarely see are jenners, people can make them work, to great effect, but we all consider a pirahna more dangerous.

Yeah, Jenners are bad now. Many people agree, but that has to do with removing its arm armour.

Isolar, on 10 September 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

With the flea side by side to the jenner, the flea is about as tall and wide as a jenner's leg, probably taking up about the same amount of volume. The flea is about belt height to a commando, the commando is about belt height to a wolfhound. The scaling is messed up, some mechs apparently were made to be huge targets and the ones that get abused are missed by the devs and get all the love from the player base.

Jenner was a-ok before it got its arm armour nerfed.

Isolar, on 10 September 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

I know the main defense of light pilots, is tonnage and weapons and 'pilot skill', but you should come clean with it and admit that you suck (plain truth),you COULD NOT perform the same in a jenner or an incubus, using the largest engine on either.

Some mechs are inherently worse than others.

That doesn't mean good players can't perform well in them.

Isolar, on 10 September 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

On top of all this, these lights with tiny moving hitboxes work as a hard counter for any laser equipped mechs, especially clan, because of burn time, heat, and damage were nerfed across the board. The laser nerf has to be the worst pandering to noobs the dev team has ever done. Doesn't mean I don't understand why this was done, but the consequences just breaks it, the logic of the game and lore of the battletech universe.

Some gameplay counters other gameplay.

Isolar, on 10 September 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

tl;dr flea, piranha, locusts, pilots are scrubs.

Can you put up 1000 damage with a flea on a regular basis?

Go ahead, I'll wait.

Isolar, on 10 September 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

These 20 ton recon mechs break the immersive feel of the game,

Immersion lol

Isolar, on 10 September 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

especially, when they are unafraid to stroll through your entire team, get shot by EVERYONE, then, not only does it live, it is routinely the last mech standing, dragging the game out for five minutes longer than it needed to be.

Most people can't aim.

Edited by thievingmagpi, 10 September 2020 - 03:09 PM.

[Isolar]

Not that it is too large, maybe some mechs are too large, several mechs for sure are too small. I think the jenner is almost appropriately sized nowadays compared to similar chassis, still small, but, it is squishy, it is a 35 ton light, which was the point, to be clear, so you understand, it should be squishy. If I argued at your level, i would just tell you that you are wrong, but you already know you are. ;D

[Deadead]

Isolar, on 10 September 2020 - 03:15 PM, said:

Not that it is too large, maybe some mechs are too large, several mechs for sure are too small. I think the jenner is almost appropriately sized nowadays compared to similar chassis, still small, but, it is squishy, it is a 35 ton light, which was the point, to be clear, so you understand, it should be squishy. If I argued at your level, i would just tell you that you are wrong, but you already know you are. ;D

In a multiplayer game like this, every player needs to have a fighting chance.
This isn't tabletop or single player where lights are some expendable scouts/clay pigeons for you to shoot at.
They must be as viable as an assault or their availability cannot be justified.

What this means is sure, assaults have a lot of armor, but they should be large and easy to hit to an extent.

Similarly, sure lights have very little, they are obviously squishy. *but they must be given another means to survivability in order to remain viable*. If you have little armor and you have to be equally viable, you have to be harder to hit. Being harder to hit comes from 2 traits. being *smaller*, and being *dramatically faster*.
Tha requires either A: speed, and B: size.

Since the 'resize' pass, a great many lights and mediums are the same damn size as heavies and assaults.
Some are even bigger. that's damned stupid. All they have then is mobility. and most lights top out at the same max speed cause PGI had a hit reg issue for a while.
*NO* light is very hard to hit in MWO. The flea may be slightly harder, but that's not the same as hard.

You're sitting here bitching that the one light that has decent survivability is *op* whereas the fact is it's one of the few that's actually somewhat viable. it would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

If a guy running 4 medium lasers and constantly overheating can so dramatically outdo you in damage when your guns weigh more then his whole mech, and your one component has more armor then his ct+ st both, in a machine that is so fragile 1 good shot can and often does take them out, maybe, just maybe the problem isn't that said *mech* is op, its that you can't shoot for ****,

Lights are supposed to be small, not the size of a house. The jenner has a CT bigger then many heavies. tell me again that's how it's a good thing.

Those flea pilots put up good numbers because they're just *that much better* then most players. not because the underarmored, undergunned, constantly overheating little clay pigeons they drive are overpowered. the idea that they are, is frankly just ******* laughable.

For context, when bored i like to play in an 82 kph panther with an XL engine, as bad as that is and I regularly outdamage / kill/ assist outlast the heavies and assaults on my team. so while im not the best, i'm certainly not bad. I can't even *begin* to play a 20 tonner as well as those flea guys. Every time i try im lucky to do 200 dmg. many games i go under 100. because they're just THAT unforgiving. One mistake and you're done.


You guys bagging on their mech are just plain insulting great players buy insisting that the POS they drive does all the work for them.

[Isolar]

Deadead, on 10 September 2020 - 03:55 PM, said:

In a multiplayer game like this, every player needs to have a fighting chance.
This isn't tabletop or single player where lights are some expendable scouts/clay pigeons for you to shoot at.
They must be as viable as an assault or their availability cannot be justified.

That's why there is a tonnage system in place. duh.
I'm replying to that specifically because rather an an argument, or a misrepresentation, i feel what you wrote is a misunderstanding or a lack of understanding. Everything else is a misrepresentation, for sure, like most things in this thread, of the reality of the, what a game is, and how they work to be enjoyable. Balance.

Repeatedly I read, something something BUT BRUH DO YOU HAVE A SCREENSHOT OF DOING 1000 DAMAGE?
...no, but I have done it, many, many times, and it's not that hard. If you are reading this, all it takes is run the best dps to ton weapons in the game, spl, mediums or medium pulses. Stay alive, longer than 5 minutes. All the aforementioned mechs need to do is move, mechs like the flea take shots, eat entire burns, while moving and spread the damage not because of skill, but because of the size of their hitboxes.

Something anecdotal, introducing new friends to the game, they do 1000 damage but break nothing, no kills, because they spam medium lasers. I actually recommend new players play the locust or the flea, and they do well, survive and would pass for any tier of player in this game, given the circumstances of the game, the teammates. Save maybe at the professional level. They do well because if coming from other shooters, you know, not getting shot, not getting seen, is the best defense. I think maybe it has to do with the older nature of the player base of this game, but people genuinely, less often, jokingly i hear you guys say that holding W key is skill. Not an exact quote. If your side torso is the size of another mechs cockpit, maybe it is too small.