544 replies to this topic

[DAEDALOS513]

AnAnachronismAlive, on 17 October 2020 - 02:45 AM, said:

Unsure if this is the right spot to place this stuff into (since the discussion seems to have shifted into tons of subthreads etc. which is not a good thing to compress / keep an overview regarding the feedback of what quality it may be anyhow).
A lot of game modes feel like „Killing the opposition and care about objectives afterwards“ (if at all). While I understand that the general mech combat is the central source of joy MWO provides, making a lot / most of the game modes feel like some sort of skirmish makes the gameplay experience feel somewhat „interchangeable“.

While I am kinda unsure, if such ideas are on the table anyhow and the following proposals are most likely flawed in terms of their applicabilty, may be some of the more experienced / tech-savy community members are able to think these „work in progress ideas“ through and properly refine them to some sort or – in case they are not viable at all – dismiss them totally if these thoughts ain’t viable at all.

Main focus should be on a more diverse gameplay experience in between game modes without sacrificing the central element of mech combat and too much work on the coding-side.

• Protect the Prototype / protect the MobileHQ
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Rebrand the former VIP-mode into a „Protect the Prototype“ or „Protect the MobileHQ“ kinda mission, in which a random player controls a heavily armored but very close range or very lackluster (high risk, high reward gameplay) weaponized version of a mech (with global ECM) that needs to get into an extraction zone / or an installation alive.
  
  Ye could even implement this Prototype to be a version of a soon to be released chassis / hero mech for a limited timeframe (like 1 week pre-release). Else make it some sort of a slow but heavily armored MobileHQ (movement and minor weapons controlled via a gun-turret somewhat similar to a mech-turret, so no insane amounts of coding are required).
  
  If I recall correctly former VIP mode had maps being dotted with minor turrets and capturable ECM-nodes all over the place. Those generally have not been much more than a nuisance for most mechs though. How about replacing them with some sort of more heavily guarded and defendable intel-points kinda denying certain areas of the map by firepower and damage taken if you just pass it. Conquering the first provides 1 true and 4 false positions of the VIP on the minimap, second provides 1 true and 2 false and last provides the true position). The more of these intel points you take, the more power the Prototype / MobileHQ has to redirect into his ECM-module and therefore it is slowed down (use some leg-modificators here).

Could this or some sort of modification turn out to be a fun and – in terms of ressources needed – realistic game play option? Some folks on the Comp-Discord (join the discussion there too please) implied ye could have such a mode implemented with some sort of bomb a certain player can carry.

I like your ideas, very creative.. I always liked the original VIP mode.. the only thing that made it bad was the players that didn't know how use the mini-map and defend the VIP.. and predictably so, they would whine and blame the game mode for the loss.. I don't care if the vip is drunk and running around in circles.. use the map and defend it. Now that there is a map/mode voting system they should bring it back. The best part was fighting in parts of a map you rarely fought in before..

PS. if they could combine your idea where one live pilot controls the VIP to get to tha choppa.. or destination.. that would be awesome.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 17 October 2020 - 04:58 PM.

[Threat Doc]

Here's a look for various types of missions based on game-play through the past. Note that I have NOT played MW5 as I can't afford a rig that will allow me to run it, just now.

http://www.wolvesau.net/CMTC3.pdf

All participants in this conversation are welcome to enjoy this.

[Alreech]

Most of the ideas of the last pages don't fit into the Arena-Teamdeathmatch Gameplay of Solo Quickplay.

MWO doesn't need new maps if most players vote for the same 2 or 3 small maps that work great in NASCAR.
MWO doesn't need more Mechs with bad hardpoint placement. You only need 2 - 3 Mechs of each class for effective builds.
MWO doesn't need AI Tanks, VTOLs or Infantry. They would just add things to kill after all enemy players are removed from the game, prolonging the match for the winning team.
MWO doesn't need faction bonus for skins because factions don't matter in Solo Quickplay.
MWO doesn't need more game modes, because it always breaks down to Team Deathmatch.

Horseman, on 17 October 2020 - 05:48 AM, said:

The reason the VIP mode was so annoying was that even the defending team HAD NO IDEA WHERE THE VIP WAS GOING. I mean, like... that's the one thing they absolutely needed to plan a strategy and they didn't have it.

Retooling the mode slightly to make the VIP a mobile capture objective for the attackers might help.

VIP mode is bad because it focus the team on fullfilling objectives instead of just killing the enemy team.

[C337Skymaster]

Alreech, on 18 October 2020 - 03:39 AM, said:

Most of the ideas of the last pages don't fit into the Arena-Teamdeathmatch Gameplay of Solo Quickplay.

MWO doesn't need new maps if most players vote for the same 2 or 3 small maps that work great in NASCAR.
MWO doesn't need more Mechs with bad hardpoint placement. You only need 2 - 3 Mechs of each class for effective builds.
MWO doesn't need AI Tanks, VTOLs or Infantry. They would just add things to kill after all enemy players are removed from the game, prolonging the match for the winning team.
MWO doesn't need faction bonus for skins because factions don't matter in Solo Quickplay.
MWO doesn't need more game modes, because it always breaks down to Team Deathmatch.



VIP mode is bad because it focus the team on fullfilling objectives instead of just killing the enemy team.

Geezum crow..... Is that the most toxic post I've ever read. Especially that last line: "VIP mode is bad because it focused the team on the objective instead of just the same-old boring **** that we play day in and day out and are sick and tired of but do it anyway because we like the IP and the chance to shoot live players and not AI automatons".

[Mochyn Pupur]

VIP mode was a decent enough idea, just badly implemented. Poor AI (so disheartening to see the VIP turn back and retrace its steps because of a 1s blockage on its semi-predetermined path allowing opposition plenty of time to find it), watching a 100 t mech inanely amble at a slow walk, then stand and face fire with no retaliation. Yes it had insane amounts of armour, but the lack of reaction meant it was as good as a sitting duck once found - even more so if any mech stood in front of it.

Perhaps with lessons learned from MW5, they could revisit this mode and actually make it work? Anything is worth a shot at this point of the game's life.

[Galahad2030]

PeppaPig, on 18 October 2020 - 08:50 AM, said:

VIP mode was a decent enough idea, just badly implemented. Poor AI (so disheartening to see the VIP turn back and retrace its steps because of a 1s blockage on its semi-predetermined path allowing opposition plenty of time to find it), watching a 100 t mech inanely amble at a slow walk, then stand and face fire with no retaliation. Yes it had insane amounts of armour, but the lack of reaction meant it was as good as a sitting duck once found - even more so if any mech stood in front of it.

Perhaps with lessons learned from MW5, they could revisit this mode and actually make it work? Anything is worth a shot at this point of the game's life.

I have the benefit of having never seen escort/VIP game mode in this game, but my idea for VIP/escort is that a player is designated the VIP, and it plays like a standard skirmish except VIP kill is a win condition.

edit:
The VIP would be a player, and the VIP would be awarded a large matchscore bonus and xp for playing it. It would not be a disabled mech or civilian PC.

Edited by Galahad2030, 18 October 2020 - 11:18 AM.

[Alreech]

Galahad2030, on 18 October 2020 - 08:57 AM, said:

I have the benefit of having never seen escort/VIP game mode in this game, but my idea for VIP/escort is that a player is designated the VIP, and it plays like a standard skirmish except VIP kill is a win condition.

That doesn't work in Quickplay.

The VIP would have to play very carefully, so he don't do much damage & kills, leading to a bad matchscore.
Even worse, a sneaky VIP may end the game while most Mechs are still active, robbing the other players of the chance to rank up in tiers via kills & damage.

[Galahad2030]

Alreech, on 18 October 2020 - 09:16 AM, said:

That doesn't work in Quickplay.

The VIP would have to play very carefully, so he don't do much damage & kills, leading to a bad matchscore.
Even worse, a sneaky VIP may end the game while most Mechs are still active, robbing the other players of the chance to rank up in tiers via kills & damage.

VIP player would be given a large bonus for staying alive in that case (match score and xp). Kills could receive more matchscore points from a VIP player. There's always a way to adjust to make things work.

[C337Skymaster]

Galahad2030, on 18 October 2020 - 08:57 AM, said:

I have the benefit of having never seen escort/VIP game mode in this game, but my idea for VIP/escort is that a player is designated the VIP, and it plays like a standard skirmish except VIP kill is a win condition.

That's how Critical Rocket and friends played it when they came up with it as a game to play in their Private Lobby matches (They used an Atlas, they dictated that the Atlas not fight back, etc. The entire mode was a complete ripoff of him and his group with no credit given).

That said, I agree with the escort being an NPC, however, it should be controllable by whoever takes Company Command, and shouldn't be a 'mech, but rather a convoy of some sort. My personal preference is to recreate the MW3 Mobile Field Base, which could be directed to a series of predetermined waypoints where it would set up and repair the first 'mech that shut down in between them. Only armor and ammo would receive repairs in-game, and there should only be enough time to repair 6 'mechs before you're too late to make the rendezvous. The CC can decide if they want to travel quickly and go straight to the rendezvous, or if they want to travel more slowly on a more hidden path, or stop for repairs along the way, etc. This would be instead of all the turrets and ECM towers all over the map. There would only be the escorting team, and the MFB's, and all MFBs would need to be destroyed to achieve the objective. (They should be a "normal" durability, not the super-insane tank that the VIP Atlas was).

[Galahad2030]

C337Skymaster, on 18 October 2020 - 10:56 AM, said:

That's how Critical Rocket and friends played it when they came up with it as a game to play in their Private Lobby matches (They used an Atlas, they dictated that the Atlas not fight back, etc. The entire mode was a complete ripoff of him and his group with no credit given).

That said, I agree with the escort being an NPC, however, it should be controllable by whoever takes Company Command, and shouldn't be a 'mech, but rather a convoy of some sort. My personal preference is to recreate the MW3 Mobile Field Base, which could be directed to a series of predetermined waypoints where it would set up and repair the first 'mech that shut down in between them. Only armor and ammo would receive repairs in-game, and there should only be enough time to repair 6 'mechs before you're too late to make the rendezvous. The CC can decide if they want to travel quickly and go straight to the rendezvous, or if they want to travel more slowly on a more hidden path, or stop for repairs along the way, etc. This would be instead of all the turrets and ECM towers all over the map. There would only be the escorting team, and the MFB's, and all MFBs would need to be destroyed to achieve the objective. (They should be a "normal" durability, not the super-insane tank that the VIP Atlas was).

The blocker for PGI is the AI needed for the NPC. That is why I suggest a player VIP. No AI to code. fast and simple implementation (compared to writing an AI/script for the NPCs).

[C337Skymaster]

Galahad2030, on 18 October 2020 - 11:07 AM, said:

The blocker for PGI is the AI needed for the NPC. That is why I suggest a player VIP. No AI to code. fast and simple implementation (compared to writing an AI/script for the NPCs).

The catch being that they're unable to script asymmetric engagements, so the defending team would be a man down in the defense.

[Galahad2030]

C337Skymaster, on 18 October 2020 - 11:11 AM, said:

The catch being that they're unable to script asymmetric engagements, so the defending team would be a man down in the defense.

The VIP would be a player, and the VIP would be awarded a large matchscore bonus and xp for playing it. It would not be a disabled mech or civilian PC.

[C337Skymaster]

Galahad2030, on 18 October 2020 - 11:18 AM, said:

The VIP would be a player, and the VIP would be awarded a large matchscore bonus and xp for playing it. It would not be a disabled mech or civilian PC.

No, my point being that the defending team would be 11 combat-capable 'mechs and the VIP, and the attacking team would be 12 combat-capable 'mechs. So you're already fighting at a 12-11 deficit. The AI nature of the VIP/Convoy allows the combat to take place between three full lances of 'mechs on each side. The AI for a Mobile Field base doesn't have to be any more complicated than the one they already have: it just moves along a set path at a set speed. The difference would be the ability for the Company Commander to dictate objective waypoints, so they can adjust the convoy route.

The real "cream of the crop" (which still shouldn't be TOO hard to code, I'd hope) would be the repair functionality.

[Galahad2030]

C337Skymaster, on 18 October 2020 - 11:40 AM, said:

No, my point being that the defending team would be 11 combat-capable 'mechs and the VIP, and the attacking team would be 12 combat-capable 'mechs. So you're already fighting at a 12-11 deficit. The AI nature of the VIP/Convoy allows the combat to take place between three full lances of 'mechs on each side. The AI for a Mobile Field base doesn't have to be any more complicated than the one they already have: it just moves along a set path at a set speed. The difference would be the ability for the Company Commander to dictate objective waypoints, so they can adjust the convoy route.

The real "cream of the crop" (which still shouldn't be TOO hard to code, I'd hope) would be the repair functionality.

My suggestion was that the defending team's VIP is an actual player with a combat mech. Compensating for early leavers and the fact the VIP will probably avoid combat, the game will award a large survival bonus to the VIP player at the end of the round, and bonus score for kills by a VIP player.

You seem to have ignored my comment and focused on the AI aspect which I suggest be removed.

[Alreech]

Most players voted against Escort, so why do you think bringig it back would work?

[Lance McRaven]

I liked escort, because it made the teams work together more...trying to get to the destination.

[C337Skymaster]

Alreech, on 18 October 2020 - 01:45 PM, said:

Most players voted against Escort, so why do you think bringig it back would work?

The purpose of this discussion is to improve MWO, and make it what we all expected it would eventually become. Escort matches, PROPERLY IMPLEMENTED, can present a unique challenge and an interesting change of pace.

PGI's version was not "properly implemented", and its sloppiness discouraged most of the community from enjoying it.

[Threat Doc]

C337Skymaster, on 18 October 2020 - 08:06 AM, said:

Geezum crow..... Is that the most toxic post I've ever read. Especially that last line: "VIP mode is bad because it focused the team on the objective instead of just the same-old boring **** that we play day in and day out and are sick and tired of but do it anyway because we like the IP and the chance to shoot live players and not AI automatons".

I have to disagree with you, here, C337. Alreech, whether he meant to or not, has outlined exactly what was wrong with the game. If he meant that those things didn't need to be there to play, because he prefers the wash-rinse-repeat race-track bonehead option of Quick Play, then he has outlined why we don't need or want Players like him in the game, unless an implementation can be made for scut Players to remain in the scut.

Alternately, if he was being facetious about what he was saying, then he's arguing for a much better game to be produced, in which case he would be an example of exactly the sort of Players we need, here.

Either way, he's right and, frankly, I don't see why the post was so toxic?

Give scut Players the ability to play anywhere they can find a match, join a team, wreak some havoc, get their jollies, and help move the universe along at the same time, which is a control item on them, and everyone wins. Right now, only the Scuts win in this game. However, give EVERYONE something to do -and there are at least twenty different aspects of BattleTech AND MechWarrior that can be implemented simultaneously- and everyone wins. Command Staff Players could have their resource and unit management and the Scuts/Ghosts would be none the wiser as they mindlessly do the bidding of those in Command Staff's, without ever having to raise a paw in salute. Let them go out and kill like the ravenous unattached they want to be while everyone actually in the team gets to go take care of objectives. Team Players would get to act like a team, PLAY AS A TEAM, which I already know is extraordinarily deadly, and advance their MechWarrior careers so they feel like they're actually a part of something, and all sides of the equation sleep well at night. Let Commanders schedule matches for everything from Reconnaissance to Skirmishes to Planetary Assaults and/or contract completion, with BattleTech-style contracts, outlining pre-programmable choices for how those contracts are to be completed, and then let each Commander select three close-by dates for the conflict, like we used to do in the various leagues that once existed, and then when it's time for the fight, those who show up to each team to fight get primary slots and the Ghosts get the pickin's of what remains (Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault, or overall weight split with others), and drop when you get close to play the mission.

What 99% of you do not understand, regardless of how smart you THINK you are, is BattleTech is a WHOLE set of rules, circumstances, ideas, and management that bring a warfare universe to life. What we have been playing since play testing began in July 2012, has only the most peripheral involvement with the names BattleTech and MechWarrior. You have the chassis, the weapon names and the basic descriptions, but you don't have BattleTech. And, before the jackasses who like to scream about this not being a tabletop game chime in, I'm not talking about making it the tabletop game. It's a great combat simulator, it's just like World of Tanks, with frickin' 'Mechs; but, that's ALL it is. The reasons the game is in the state it is, right now, is because Piranha went soft and programmed a good (not best) 'Mech simulator, and then all the killer kids came in, the ones who love Call of Duty and all those other games that are "get into an arena, mindlessly kill one another, get out of the arena, and do that stupid **** all over, again, all day long, so you can remain stupid but feel like you're actually accomplishing something".

Would anyone like something that allows those who LIKE to THINK and PLAN and MANAGE to be able to do that, and then allow various levels of involvement down to the basest JUST KILL IT ALL players? Ne'ry does one level need to interact with one another UNLESS they're trying to get to the next higher level and have a reason to give a damn about the game, rather than just getting their jollies. I love to think and plan and manage; I love the idea of training with my organized unit, making real-world friends in a fun-time simulated environment -yes, I have one that has been with me since '97, and a few I'm sure I could send emails to and get warm welcomes from even though we haven't spoken in some time- and then going out and stomping a big fat mudhole in opponents like we used to do because we were trained and organized and could follow instructions. Unlike the everyone gets a trophy for participation crowd that most Ghosts come from.

Good evening.

[C337Skymaster]

Threat Doc, on 18 October 2020 - 03:08 PM, said:

Either way, he's right and, frankly, I don't see why the post was so toxic?

So the possibility of satire did occur to me, about an hour after I hit "post". In short: his post was extremely triggering, as that mindset is exactly what frustrates the crap out of me, personally, since I feel like I run into it almost everywhere. Most of the voices I hear calling for "balance" also scream "screw the lore, just make a pokey shooter", which I feel completely dishonors the game we're playing, and strips away anything and everything that is special about it. Seeing it in writing in such a "straight faced" tone set me off. IF it was, in fact, satirical, then Alreech, I apologize. If it was not, then... I dunno... I'm on board with isolating those people into a "cannon fodder" role that everyone more interested in the rest of what makes Battletech "Battletech" can manage and throw into the line of fire.

The life of "the only nerd in class" surfacing unbidden, once again.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 18 October 2020 - 03:54 PM.

[Bowelhacker]

Alreech, on 18 October 2020 - 01:45 PM, said:

Most players voted against Escort, so why do you think bringig it back would work?

If it was so rarely voted for why remove it at all? At least it was another tiny bit of variation in an increasingly monocultured game.