68 replies to this topic

[Willard Phule]

ChenGGez, on 08 October 2020 - 09:03 AM, said:

There isn't enough population in MWO for a full balance pass and unique faction weapon aspects and feels to be implemented. That would require a test server with enough pop to get enough data to properly balance it.

At this point all PGI would be capable of doing within reason is minor tweaks based on the metrics they gathered from the live server such as minor heat adjustments like they did with the IS LPL in the past.

Or, you know, take a look at the mechs they made unplayable a long time ago. Simply adding tweaks to those would make them playable again.

[Buster Machine 0]

Willard Phule, on 08 October 2020 - 09:14 AM, said:

Or, you know, take a look at the mechs they made unplayable a long time ago. Simply adding tweaks to those would make them playable again.

The quirkening 2.0 is for chassis balance issues. I'm concerned with weapon balance issues and weapons that are no longer "competitive".

[Monkey Lover]

Willard Phule, on 08 October 2020 - 08:05 AM, said:

So, in essence, until there's enough of a population that you can separate tiers properly, there's no point in trying to balance anything.

You can balance mechs even if you don't go after weapons. Maybe we would see more jenners and less commandos.

But really if you want to talk about improving the game No balance pass has "fixed" the game in the last 4 years. If we didn't have covid this game would have been under 5k players by now.

[General Solo]

Willard Phule, on 08 October 2020 - 08:05 AM, said:

So, in essence, until there's enough of a population that you can separate tiers properly, there's no point in trying to balance anything.

Unless match maker is tweaked good to make good match up's with a low population, Yes
As how do you increase population when low population is dissatisfied with making making.
Make match maker better able to deal with low population is the answer.

Remember school and the games in the playground, you didn't need 10,000 students then.

In fact you only needed enough students for one game lol mind blown.

Then what happen?

The two best were the captains and each took turns at picking the next best player etc and so on.

So its not rocket science, just a little bit of logic.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 08 October 2020 - 10:34 AM.

[thievingmagpi]

Monkey Lover, on 08 October 2020 - 09:55 AM, said:

You can balance mechs even if you don't go after weapons. Maybe we would see more jenners and less commandos.

But really if you want to talk about improving the game No balance pass has "fixed" the game in the last 4 years. If we didn't have covid this game would have been under 5k players by now.

wtf happened in between season 20 and 25??

[Nightbird]

thievingmagpi, on 08 October 2020 - 11:33 AM, said:

wtf happened in between season 20 and 25??

Jan-March 2018, a series of weapons and mech stats/quirks rebalancing

[Monkey Lover]

thievingmagpi, on 08 October 2020 - 11:33 AM, said:

wtf happened in between season 20 and 25??

Faction play updates in 19
Solaris in season 21
new map in 22

Sadly ,basically a year(+?) of work for 3 month temporary bump. Small bump around 12 season was the new tech as i remember.

https://mwomercs.com...march-april-may

Edited by Monkey Lover, 08 October 2020 - 12:06 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Monkey Lover, on 08 October 2020 - 09:55 AM, said:

You can balance mechs even if you don't go after weapons. Maybe we would see more jenners and less commandos.

But really if you want to talk about improving the game No balance pass has "fixed" the game in the last 4 years. If we didn't have covid this game would have been under 5k players by now.

No denying that. At best, PGI could hope to...maybe....draw back some of the die-hard BT/MW fans that kept this, and other MW titles alive, back and increase both it's population and reputation IF they made a series of good decisions and improvements with the game. Right now, population kills any sort of "balancing" they could manage with weapons. We saw that back before the gauss mechanic. The guys that could poptart a pair of those with PPCs were brutal.

Difference is, a "fix it" pass to 'Mechs they made unplayable way back when, like the Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf or Atlas, is a whole lot easier than trying to uncluster the f*ck that balancing already is. There are any number of mechs of the same weight class that are entirely playable to use as a baseline.

OZHomerOZ, on 08 October 2020 - 10:34 AM, said:

Unless match maker is tweaked good to make good match up's with a low population, Yes
As how do you increase population when low population is dissatisfied with making making.
Make match maker better able to deal with low population is the answer.

Remember school and the games in the playground, you didn't need 10,000 students then.

In fact you only needed enough students for one game lol mind blown.

Then what happen?

The two best were the captains and each took turns at picking the next best player etc and so on.

So its not rocket science, just a little bit of logic.

True, but now you're talking something that's entirely out of context with regard to the current state of matchmaking. One of the baseline facts you MUST accept is that unless they start the Group Queue up again, 4 man or more groups are going to be a "thing" in QP. Maybe they will, IF they increase population enough to create a demand. Currently, population is so low that finding T3s in matches with T1s (even T1 premade groups) are fairly common.

Premade groups have their own weight restrictions, unlike solos in QP. That's supposed to be like some kind of front loaded balancing thing so the MatchMaker doesn't have to try to build a team around the premade group while it fails miserably at the whole equal distribution of weight thing. Until such time as the groups have their own queue again, there is NO WAY that the matchmaker will ever be able to make a "balanced and even" match with regard to either weight distribution or PSR rating. Hell, from reading the notes, I'm pretty sure there isn't even an aggregate average of the PSR in groups that's used. I think they just toss them into whatever is queuing up at the time.

I'm not disagreeing with you, all I'm saying is that unless they do something to stop the arterial flow of players, the only thing they'll be able to do is open up the MM all the way and allow full 12 man premades into QP. And, oddly enough, the hardcore players that have left are probably the best chance they have of doing that. Nothing they can do is going to generate a huge crop of derps from nowhere. Matchmaking is far from the first thing they'd have to do to draw them back. Fixing mechs that a lot of those guys still have gathering dust is a good first step at getting their attention. Still, if they come back into this septic tank of a solo queue, they'll tire of it quickly.

Edited by Willard Phule, 08 October 2020 - 02:31 PM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Willard Phule, on 08 October 2020 - 02:30 PM, said:

No denying that. At best, PGI could hope to...maybe....draw back some of the die-hard BT/MW fans that kept this, and other MW titles alive, back and increase both it's population and reputation IF they made a series of good decisions and improvements with the game. Right now, population kills any sort of "balancing" they could manage with weapons. We saw that back before the gauss mechanic. The guys that could poptart a pair of those with PPCs were brutal.

This is something I think a lot of player forget this game is post too be adaptation of Battletech and it post to be a mech sim

[Heavy Money]

I think it's worth noting that there's actually several separate issues that are worth looking at on their own. The devs probably need to do something for each of these:

• Bringing in new players
  
• Re-engaging older players and whales
  
• Stopping player base bleed due to demoralization
  
• Monetizing

From seeing people's discussion in this and other threads, its clear that most people only care about a couple of these issues, and the devs themselves only care about 1-3 insofar as it lets them achieve 4 enough to keep the game solvent.

Now, i hate to say it, but No.2 is more optional than the others because money spent by a noob is worth just as much as money spent by a vet. Getting people who have already played for years and bought lots of stuff to buy more is hard. If they have to make a choice between appealing to newer players vs older, they are actually better off trying to bring new people in, as they are more likely to buy a bunch of mechs. But that's entirely contingent on 3, stopping player bleed.

If we think lots of new players aren't sticking with the game because they get stomped by experienced players, then the solution may be to adjust matching based on Tier even more. Skew match times against skilled players and in favor of new.

That said, do we actually know for sure that the game is bleeding players because of the noob stomp effect? Is there any way that this effect, or its size, could be verified?

[East Indy]

Requirking is as about as easy it gets for adding a little life to the game. Chris was wrong, Daeron's here for change. Action time!

[Willard Phule]

Heavy Money, on 08 October 2020 - 03:05 PM, said:

I think it's worth noting that there's actually several separate issues that are worth looking at on their own. The devs probably need to do something for each of these:

• Bringing in new players
  
• Re-engaging older players and whales
  
• Stopping player base bleed due to demoralization
  
• Monetizing

From seeing people's discussion in this and other threads, its clear that most people only care about a couple of these issues, and the devs themselves only care about 1-3 insofar as it lets them achieve 4 enough to keep the game solvent.

Fix #2 and #3, if you want to keep it alive beyond life support. #1 and #4 aren't even possible if #2 and #3 are an issue. Triage the patient before you start treating it.

Heavy Money, on 08 October 2020 - 03:05 PM, said:

Now, i hate to say it, but No.2 is more optional than the others because money spent by a noob is worth just as much as money spent by a vet. Getting people who have already played for years and bought lots of stuff to buy more is hard. If they have to make a choice between appealing to newer players vs older, they are actually better off trying to bring new people in, as they are more likely to buy a bunch of mechs. But that's entirely contingent on 3, stopping player bleed.

I will counterargue by saying that the "Vets" that you're referring to are the "Veteran Founders" that spent enough money to get this thing off the ground in the first place, are the organized players in leagues that spent money in a reliable fashion since the beginning, spent stupid money for Gold Omnimechs when they released the Clans and tend to be the one source of income PGI can bank on month by month. New players might drop a few bucks if their Cadet matches haven't chased them off, but they'll never be the guaranteed income that the "Vets" have been.

First thing is to stop the bleeding. Fix QP. Do something about the premade group roflstomps and try to get some kind of even weight distribution going on, even if you can't do anything about the tier issues. Start new players off at T5 instead of T3. The pool will filter itself. Then, bring the old guys back. Fix the mechs they've had sitting around doing nothing for years so they're playable. Like we saw with the Gargoyle when ER Micros first came out. Or MRMs with any number of IS mechs. Give them a reason to come back and they'll stay if it's even remotely playable.

Heavy Money, on 08 October 2020 - 03:05 PM, said:

If we think lots of new players aren't sticking with the game because they get stomped by experienced players, then the solution may be to adjust matching based on Tier even more. Skew match times against skilled players and in favor of new.

There are two issues at play here. The first is the Matchmaker and Tier spread. The primary reason for the effect we're seeing is that new players are set at T3, right in the middle. If they started at T5, they'd be out of reach of the T1s-T2s long enough to get used to the game and start to figure out some of the aspects of teamwork. As it is right now, Cadets in their first 25 matches are ending up in matches with T1 solos. I know, because I'm a T1 solo. That either happens because population is so low that the +1/-1 thing loosens up, or we all ended up in a T2 match that needed filler on both sides. Population is key here. PGI probably starts people out at T3 specifically to fill slots so matches can be formed within a certain timeframe, since people ***** about wait time.

The other issue is the addition of premade groups to QP, which was prior to the merger, completely solo. There was a Group Queue, but it shut down due to lack of interest. Complaints were made, which effected that guaranteed income thing, so they opened up QP to 4 man groups or below. From what I read in the notes, they've got their own weight restrictions based on number of players in the group in an effort to "front load" weight distribution in the hopes of using it to distribute weight evenly. From what I read. It obviously doesn't work. Also, I don't think it averages the tiers of the group players at all. 3 T1s could drop with a T3 or vice versa and it wouldn't make a difference in what match they end up in.

Heavy Money, on 08 October 2020 - 03:05 PM, said:

That said, do we actually know for sure that the game is bleeding players because of the noob stomp effect? Is there any way that this effect, or its size, could be verified?

It's bleeding players due to a history, a published history, of bad choices and implementations of everything from weapons balancing to matchmaking. This latest one, the merging of the group queue, had the unfortunate timing of having happened before the whole reworked Tier thing and Tier reset had a chance of completely working itself out. Tier reset drove off a bunch, then the merger drove off even more.

[General Solo]

Willard Phule, on 08 October 2020 - 02:30 PM, said:

True, but now you're talking something that's entirely out of context with regard to the current state of matchmaking. One of the baseline facts you MUST accept is that unless they start the Group Queue up again, 4 man or more groups are going to be a "thing" in QP. Maybe they will, IF they increase population enough to create a demand. Currently, population is so low that finding T3s in matches with T1s (even T1 premade groups) are fairly common.

Premade groups have their own weight restrictions, unlike solos in QP. That's supposed to be like some kind of front loaded balancing thing so the MatchMaker doesn't have to try to build a team around the premade group while it fails miserably at the whole equal distribution of weight thing. Until such time as the groups have their own queue again, there is NO WAY that the matchmaker will ever be able to make a "balanced and even" match with regard to either weight distribution or PSR rating. Hell, from reading the notes, I'm pretty sure there isn't even an aggregate average of the PSR in groups that's used. I think they just toss them into whatever is queuing up at the time.

I'm not disagreeing with you, all I'm saying is that unless they do something to stop the arterial flow of players, the only thing they'll be able to do is open up the MM all the way and allow full 12 man premades into QP. And, oddly enough, the hardcore players that have left are probably the best chance they have of doing that. Nothing they can do is going to generate a huge crop of derps from nowhere. Matchmaking is far from the first thing they'd have to do to draw them back. Fixing mechs that a lot of those guys still have gathering dust is a good first step at getting their attention. Still, if they come back into this septic tank of a solo queue, they'll tire of it quickly.

Man I disagree about the context stuff, boils down to low player population and how to make good with that, because that what we have.

And I'm not asking for a match maker rework.
I'm asking for a small modular addition to the match builder to be added, in essence something like this:

If "condition normal" use "normal match builder", else use "Special Low population match builder, that is all

What is normal is up for debate but to me its if player resources are insufficient to build two teams where the PSR delta meets criteria for making good matches

This PSR delta criteria need to be tweeked to ensure that their are good matches and the intial setting can be grabbed from the normal population current match builder baseline for good matches.

If a group is in the match you balance with other groups and highest PSR soles till PSR delta is in spec, giving lowest PSR team those high PSR player/groups to balance PSR delta.

As for weight matching for groups...
imo tough, your in a group and have a advantage by being in a group, if the group can't use their group advantage that the groups problem.

What do they want auto win maximum advantage minimum risk training wheels.
Yeah
Many, they do

[MechWarrior414712]

I think balance is "ok" right now, but I'd like to see the following changes (but not limited to):

-No superquirk mechs (IV4). pretty much any quirk over 20% or a combo of quirks over 20% like, for example something with general heat/cooldown quirk and a specific similar quirk applied on top.
-No unnecessary quirks for mechs (Vapor Eagles).
-Spl slight buff.
-Atms slight nerf. Not necessarily a dps nerf. Make them shoot faster with less damage to keep the dps same. So the burst isn't game over in quick play if you get hit once.
-No mechs that are so clumsy that they even have problems aiming. Try the Kodiak-3, good example.
-IS PPC linear damage dropoff like it used to be long ago so they still do damage below 90 but decreasing to 0 damage when approaching 0.

[VonBruinwald]

Willard Phule, on 08 October 2020 - 02:30 PM, said:

Premade groups have their own weight restrictions, unlike solos in QP. That's supposed to be like some kind of front loaded balancing thing so the MatchMaker doesn't have to try to build a team around the premade group while it fails miserably at the whole equal distribution of weight thing. Until such time as the groups have their own queue again, there is NO WAY that the matchmaker will ever be able to make a "balanced and even" match with regard to either weight distribution or PSR rating. Hell, from reading the notes, I'm pretty sure there isn't even an aggregate average of the PSR in groups that's used. I think they just toss them into whatever is queuing up at the time.

Actually, there may be a way around it:

Remember back when sync dropping was major issue the per-mades/synchers claimed it wasn't unbalanced because they were just as likely to fight against each other and happy to do so...

If we allow the matchmaker to split group players between teams games would become a lot better balanced than what we have now.

[Willard Phule]

VonBruinwald, on 09 October 2020 - 04:19 AM, said:

Actually, there may be a way around it:

Remember back when sync dropping was major issue the per-mades/synchers claimed it wasn't unbalanced because they were just as likely to fight against each other and happy to do so...

If we allow the matchmaker to split group players between teams games would become a lot better balanced than what we have now.

Or even better, just get rid of groups in QP altogether and start new players at T5 instead of T3. If group players want to group up, there's still FP. Or, maybe if enough of them complain loud enough, they'll start the group queue back up.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Willard Phule, on 09 October 2020 - 06:31 AM, said:

Or even better, just get rid of groups in QP altogether and start new players at T5 instead of T3. If group players want to group up, there's still FP. Or, maybe if enough of them complain loud enough, they'll start the group queue back up.

Like the idea of making QP solo only and making FP the group queue.

[Willard Phule]

SirSmokes, on 09 October 2020 - 07:52 AM, said:

Like the idea of making QP solo only and making FP the group queue.

Evidently, there's not enough of them to keep FP running, either. Just enough to ruin QP and take a dump on the aftermath.

[VonBruinwald]

Willard Phule, on 09 October 2020 - 11:19 AM, said:

Evidently, there's not enough of them to keep FP running, either. Just enough to ruin QP and take a dump on the aftermath.

That's a lie.

The problem is the bigger groups stomp the smaller groups. So the smaller groups avoid the queue.

So now the smaller groups can stomp the pugs; now the pugs are leaving.


A better fix would have been to reduce max. group sizes to 4 in group queue so smaller groups could drop without facing a 12 man.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Willard Phule, on 09 October 2020 - 11:19 AM, said:

Evidently, there's not enough of them to keep FP running, either. Just enough to ruin QP and take a dump on the aftermath.

Super

Edited by SirSmokes, 09 October 2020 - 12:09 PM.