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Yet Another Mwo Suggestion Thread


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#1 SoulRcannon

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Posted 12 October 2020 - 05:03 PM

What with Daeron's hiring and with that the potential for new engagement with the community and development into MWO, I've collected a few ideas as to what could be done to revitalise it. Better to make a post here and link it than try to jam all this into it.

My intention is to look at how the game is monetized and any improvements that can be made to existing systems with an aim of getting the most out of any time utilized to improve (develop) the game at this state of its lifespan. I feel like the game that the bones of MWO and MW5 could be if combined and iterated upon for a successor to these games is a different discussion, so I'm looking at this in terms of what could be done to streamline what is already there, to make the best from what is left. Also I'm attempting something stupid by trying to appeal to the lore-lovers and the l33t pilots, the coin-counters, the whales and the f2p'ers at the same time. Silly, I know.

First things first, regarding the new player experience.

Put new players in T4 please. This would help mitigate the risk that their initial gameplay involves them facing T1's straight away, so less people leaving <20 games in. That aside...

We're at a point where all existing champion (C) builds need redefining, streamlined around simplicity, survivablity and efficacy, where from there new champions for newer mechs would be welcomed. Better still is if it were possible to enable full survival and sensor tree on trial mechs,and maybe consumables. This would enable play in trial mechs for anyone at any time without feeling like you're disadvantaging your team, and gives new players a better chance of surviving (both in game and in choosing to stay on to enjoy the game). Big, if at all possible.

A new new player guide would be handy, maybe in video format? For basic stuff, going through using the mechlab (engine types, slots and wieght saving measures, heat sinks, ammo and crit slots), weapon mechanics (lock ons, uac, gauss) and hotkeys (vision, arm unlocking, stealth, ecm, masc), anything to help the new players through the game's early learning curve.

Also, Phil @ Ngng recently went over what a player's first few mechs should be, so it would nice to see a shortlist of these mechs and the range of builds they can start with. Better yet, can you add build codes to the player client, patch it in or something? Especially if these mechs become part of a possible bundle. Here's a careful selection of mechs (builds in brackets): VL-5T (5MPL, 2LL/3ERML), HMN-Prime (2UAC10, SRM, ATM, 8MPL, Gauss/6ERML), BSW-X2 (2LBX10/3SRM2, 2LBX10/2ML, 2UAC10, 3SRM6/2MPL, Ac20/SNPCC, MRM60), LBK-H (2HLL/4ERML, 6MPL, 6SRM6), WHM-6R (2LBX20, 2gauss/4ERML, 2LB10/6ML, 2UAC10/4ML, 2AC10/2PPC, MRM40 6ML), MCII-B (UAC 10s/5s, UAC10s/LBX10s, Gauss/ER-PPCs) and BLR-1G (5ERLL, 3LPL/4ML).

Monetization

Mech packs – Apparently this might be being phased out. Maybe. I still think there will be mech packs, as it can provide chassis to sell separately in both MWO and MW5 – or both, with extras to sweeten the deal. For MWO, all mech packs should come bundled with GSP on top of anything else, maybe even retroactively. A shortlist for mechs both games would appreciate now include the Wasp, Stinger, Valkyrie, Whitworth, Clint, Crusader, Ostroc/sol, Longbow and Devastator. That's a start; otherwise it'd suck to not see new mechs until many dlcs into MW5.

Thinking about it, this game's model needed GSP to be handed out like confetti when skill tree hit, with mech packs, with events, everything - to help the newbies and actively encourage mech purchase and monetization. Better late than never though. Generous GSP rewards are required to ensure fun where you have a skill tree (which I'll go into later). But for now though, other options to implent soon might include upgrading an owned mech to an (S) variant with hero bonuses for MC. And if XP conversion was ~80 % cheaper than it is now it might actually be used, so that might also be another welcome change.

If a “battle-pass” seasonal-ticket model is being looked at then here's a list of features it could include. Incorporating 2 sets of events into MWO is a good step one (a set for everyone as it is now, and one for battle pass owners with unique or otherwise costly rewards like bolt ons, colours, drop decks or chassis camo). Gradual introduction of tech (Ammo swapping for more accurate depiction of LBX/ATM/MML, then more ammo types, then guns like Light ACs, HAGs, Streak LRMs, Er/Xpulse, tech like XXL engines, TSM, Heavy Ferro and other armour types) might be ok to be part of the pass but only where it's quickly added for general use after the season (as in, immediately after a season). It could also be a means to hand out Voice Packs, mech skin/geometry packs (careful with this), free premium time/improved premium time benefits for owners of the pass, monthly GSP, access to new variants and new chassis.

Worth noting; please, please do not introduce mechanics like premium ammo in WoT, anything that'd alienate this game's audience further. No gold mechs again, MWO isn't quite a gacha game and that's good. Getting past the initial player experience and into the game, MWO has decent F2P mechanics (for now), don't mess with that so much where the issue is trying to find something for a (new) player that is worth spending money on to bring them into the game quickly to where they can enjoy it. At the moment it feels like the cash shop is full of noob traps.

For existing players, to ask for more money and be successful in doing so can only be possible by combining community input with the value represented by what you'd be willing to offer to put into the game(s) as a result. Earning goodwill by working on enough of the community's recommendations feels necessary as a first step. After that, community involvement like voting on new variants (with unique hardpoints or tech combinations of things like ecm/masc) for release, or on new mechs/maps/modes before they're developed in MWO would be awesome.

Would there be a way to offer content, bundled and themed together that would be reflected/present in both MWO and MW5 simultaneously on release? Clomp it together to promote both better... Say a new biome gets released for MW5, could it come with a similar map in MWO? Or for game modes with different takes? And of course, the mechs themselves.

What would I offer new players as a good value bundle to help get them into the game? Look at the mech suggestions in the new player experience section – I'd give them a pack with those mechs, all the components/cbills needed to build all of the referenced mech's builds (yes all of them), a hefty chunk of GSP and access to this season's battlepass which in itself would perhaps give out monthly GSP and unlockable rewards... one per account and keeping the price low enough to draw in the most people, and importanly offered after you've tightened up enough things to allow for such a pack to help promote the new feel of the game. And if that's enough to whet their whistle, I'd maybe also offer a more deluxe one-per-account package with all the trimmings consisting of 4-6 hero mechs (featuring variants like the HBR-Virago or TDR-Top Dog).

Balance considerations (for fun)

Reconsidering agility values is absolutely necessary. I'm not sure that resyncing the engines is the best idea considering how fraught the process might be(I don't believe something that encompassing could be re-implemented without a hitch). I feel like more passes should be done on a per-mech basis for the game's worst offenders, and then done again in broader terms for entire weight classes and subdivisions. It'll work out well for raising the skill ceiling of the game and increase average TTK too, a win-win. Comparing a Griffin to Dervish is night and day in terms of agility, and mechs like the Timber Wolf and the Marauder 2 need that agility to either better take advantage of the chassis' purported (lore) features, or from a balance perspective to compensate for issues with hitboxes or weapon geometry.

The skill tree... This isn't Path of Exile, we don't have the smaller number of characters they have on an avg account there. We have (for playmodes and hardpoint/quirk loadouts) dozens if not hundreds of mechs. I think Ash's idea of reconsolidating the tree is the best path to go down at this point. For a rough idea of what I mean, maybe this involves reducing max SP cap to 50 skill points, cut dead nodes (and the whole Jump Jet Tree where JJ's just need to be better baseline), consolidate (combine) weak nodes and have a number of nodes taken off the tree and put back separate from the tree, maybe with some lower separated nodes locked behind a prerequisite investment in that tree required to unlock them (I dub these “fruit” nodes, 'cus to get to the fruit you'd need to grow the tree).

Rescaling mechs - What is present in the game cannot be descibed as properly volumetric in any way whatsoever. As it currently stands, a Flea can practically fit into the space between an Annihilator's legs and we're supposed to believe 5 of those wee things voltron together into something equivalent to the Gausszilla mech itself. If this is to be done properly, to check practically all boxes including the lore, better framing of the existing scale on maps, improved TTK on targets, then pretty much all the mechs larger than 25 tons need to be scaled DOWN. Some more than others, the 35 tonners stand out for their largeness, and often it feels like our biggest mechs are simply the easiest to kill, not score kills in (which I'm sure assault performance in QP would attest to). Alongside potential animation tweaks, this likely needs to be considered with facets like agility, armor/structure quirks, geometry and hitboxes. We can't expect TT values to convert to an FPS simulator game, we can maybe try for the best of both.

Requirkening – Those niche mechs that were more fun once could do with being fun again. Not much needs to be said about this where it'd just be fun to feel like we had those mechs back. As in, the more chassis that feel usable simultaneously, the better the game feels to play.

Now for weapon/equipment tweaks:

+1 Ac20 hsl (they're tennis ball machine cannons, what the heck are you afraid of?)

IS (non-ER/Heavy) PPC's could have a touch less heat/more velocity and no-one would notice.

+1 Pepsigoose hsl <- (While doing this may trigger some people, but we live in a world of ATM's and Dual HG, let high skill ceiling players have more choices too. More variety is good.)

LPPC/Light Gauss HSL group made/separated from main PPC/Gauss group

C-ERPPC now deals 12.5/2.5 splash damage

Last 3 enabling 40-odd ppfld for IS/Clan. Oh no, more playstyles and a higher skill ceiling! Gosh!

C-SPL and SPL brought back AT LEAST midway to where they were before being gutted

ML, ERML, C-MPL, C-ERML made to have equal cycle time (cd+duration) to their respective large counterparts. <- (this not being the case just triggers me slightly, it's not an actual suggestion).

ATM's need their velocity cut back a bit. Y'know, so it's not so much of a magic trick, where a player being fired upon with them can actually react to them before their armour disappears.

Make Jump Jets good again. Balancing JJ's against outliers like the Viper isn't for the best.

Can IS XL engines work like the Flesh Wound perk in Mordhau? A ST blows, you get a few seconds with your heat spiralling out of control to try and avenge yourself. I think it sounds fun.

Other stuff

MapsPlease consider maybe throwing a competition where the “prize” is implemented in-game, to allow modders to help. And from that add however many maps as float your boat. Any maps made like Hibernal Rift would be welcome, like for example a Grim Plexus re-skin combining beach/coast aspects from Forest Colony and desert elements from Canyon Network, for an actual Oasis surrounded by mesas. Perhaps more level design elements to consider to make more areas of existing/new maps more attractive to take/keep, and to make it harder to nascar if possible, like giving clearer viable alternatives to the central features of many maps.

Modes/Queues – The queue. Can we admit that some of the implementation of soup queue is a little fraught? 4 people (or a 2 and 3 man) together is too much influence on the average folk in a QP match. You could limit it to trios or duos, but another thing to consider is perhaps the number of people in a game – 12v12 or 8v8? But surely a 4-man in an 8v8 main QP queue would be even worse? Maybe, maybe not. 8v8 allows for less pack tactics and makes for less of a possibility of being swept away by numbers – it allows individual player performance to stand out, which would help counter some behaviors and help with queue times too... And again, is Battle Royale or all v all possible in Solaris? Even if it's just 4 (1v1v1v1), it could be so much fun. And could check boxes be by Solaris Divisions to allow for matchmaking with people in those divs? I heard about an “event queue” from Matt Newman – and that sounds pretty fun too! And just so we're clear, are you guys absolutely certain 8v8 group queue with solo opt in is off the table?

Performance. Particularly on Solaris City, or if the time of day changes, it could be tightened up.

Fix the spawns please. At the very least, please no assaults in Alpha lance anymore. Maybe add a 4th spawn and give players more of a chance to choose their spawn location before the match begins, but that depends on how/if it can be implemented. Some spawn location tweaks too?

This last one's a bit out there, but It might be worth including? Feel free to ignore it.

ARM FUNCTION – aside from how your arms unlock when you unlock them, the movement axes etc, there's currently no implementation of arm component/use mechanics in this game, but I feel like there should be.

A lot of mechs with upper arm actuators are considered better than their lower arm/hand counterparts, for their high gun/hardpoint position, which might make a player wonder why the latter exists at all. You're playing in a mech, not using the arms feels off, like it's just a glorified tank and not these all encompassing adaptive machines that these mechs represent to some. The mechs have arms. Let us use them!

I suggest the following – 4 arm positions only for mechs with lower arm actuators, where those actuators are now a new positive for their adaptability. Configurable in mechlab maybe?

1. Arm up – this is the standard position for mechs without lower arm actuators, involves straightening the arm and bringing the gun up closer to head height.
2. Hip Fire – the default position of arms with lower arm actuators/hands in MWO.
3. Limp – how mechs without weaponry on an arm are positioned in MW5.
4. Shield – swinging an arm round/forward in an attempt to maximise the arm hitbox for both side and front profile.

And what about mechs with hands? Why melee ofc, pick up an arm from that downed mech and go ham! I thought to add this at the end because it's more fanciful and to be considered least among priorities at least when regarding MWO. Perhaps in a later game? At any rate, perhaps just an addendum among the myriad things to suggest be done to bring these title(s) forward.

Edited by SoulRcannon, 12 October 2020 - 07:52 PM.


#2 The6thMessenger

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Posted 12 October 2020 - 06:30 PM

I agree with many parts, but I don't agree with the CERPPC part.

It's a 6-ton weapon of clanners that generally go well anyways. Reduce total damage to 12, and heat to 11. Let it work better with other clan weapons instead.

Also the ATMs, it's clearly an OP weapon, I'd rather see it nerfed and even reworked to 1.6/2.00/2.4 damage/missile with no minimum range.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 12 October 2020 - 06:31 PM.


#3 thievingmagpi

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Posted 12 October 2020 - 07:01 PM

Clan ppcs are fine

#4 SoulRcannon

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Posted 12 October 2020 - 08:01 PM

View Postthievingmagpi, on 12 October 2020 - 07:01 PM, said:

Clan ppcs are fine


View PostThe6thMessenger, on 12 October 2020 - 06:30 PM, said:

I agree with many parts, but I don't agree with the CERPPC part.

It's a 6-ton weapon of clanners that generally go well anyways.


I was just trying to consider how perhaps making lppcs/light gauss their own separate HSL group might affect IS/Clan balance. I'm glad that you at least scanned all that and that that was your takeaway. Appreciate the feedback!

Edited by SoulRcannon, 12 October 2020 - 08:02 PM.


#5 The6thMessenger

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Posted 12 October 2020 - 08:25 PM

View PostSoulRcannon, on 12 October 2020 - 08:01 PM, said:




I was just trying to consider how perhaps making lppcs/light gauss their own separate HSL group might affect IS/Clan balance. I'm glad that you at least scanned all that and that that was your takeaway. Appreciate the feedback!


I like the idea of LPPC and LGR being separate from GH, and in fact I would advocate that for the Clan CACs and standard ACs as well.

That being said, I still don't find ANY use for LPPC, as it still competes on the very thing it automatically loses.

#6 LordNothing

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Posted 12 October 2020 - 09:28 PM

buff ppcs a lot and then introduce blueshield.

#7 MW Waldorf Statler

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Posted 12 October 2020 - 11:28 PM

First Construction Area: the Def/Staff Crew from PGI

#8 Willard Phule

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 05:50 AM

What would really be useful is a queue where new players can go to learn how to play without being farmed by more experienced players. Something like a "Solo Queue" or a "Quick Play" sort of deal. We used to have one, once upon a time, but the powers that be decided it wasn't really the experience they were looking for.

#9 The6thMessenger

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 06:59 PM

View PostWillard Phule, on 13 October 2020 - 05:50 AM, said:

What would really be useful is a queue where new players can go to learn how to play without being farmed by more experienced players. Something like a "Solo Queue" or a "Quick Play" sort of deal. We used to have one, once upon a time, but the powers that be decided it wasn't really the experience they were looking for.


DOTA2 has this Limited Heroes mode, it's mainly used by newbies.

I think we should have separate balance on separate environments. Like in Comp, the weapons are geared for more precision effectiveness, while the Casual environment would be more forgiving.

#10 VeeOt Dragon

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 11:28 PM

first off i am glad to see someone who suggest some weapon balance options without attacking LRM (they are rather balanced right now though a slight increase to lock circle would be nice, nothing big mabey just a few degrees.), seems every time balance comes up the comps and meta cry babies scream to nerf LRM.

now onto the post. i agree with a lot of it though with the monetization i have to say that you need to really careful. though how about a special mode for your comp players were the private lobby starter can fiddle with a few values making some weapons more effect or less effective (make this a feature only available to those who buy the Battle pass thing or other fee.) also if they gave some kind of rebate for buying the full mech pack i think more people would buy them. (i still wouldn't as i find paying more than a AAA game for a couple of mechs a bit outrageous.)


new maps are definitely a plus though they have to careful so that they are maps were nascar isn't the be all end all tactic. part of the prevalence of the nascar tactic is bad map design, having some structure or combination of structures in the center of the map just leads to everyone running in circles.

i also like new game modes

as for having the playerbase vote on changes well i would leave weapon or mech balancing out of that. any voting system would also have to be IN GAME since very few players actually come to the forum and most of those that do are the competative players so you would get an automatic bias. we need to keep an equal view on all of the playerbase not one group over any other.

it would take a lot for me to come back to the game though i still pop in every now and again to check out changes as i really do love the game just got boring.

#11 MW Waldorf Statler

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 11:46 PM

Quote

ARM FUNCTION – [color=#959595]aside from how your arms unlock when you unlock them, the movement axes etc, there's currently no implementation of arm component/use mechanics in this game, but I feel like there should be.[/color]

[color=#959595]A lot of mechs with upper arm actuators are considered better than their lower arm/hand counterparts, for their high gun/hardpoint position, which might make a player wonder why the latter exists at all. You're playing in a mech, not using the arms feels off, like it's just a glorified tank and not these all encompassing adaptive machines that these mechs represent to some. [/color][color=#959595]The mechs have arms. Let us use them![/color]

[color=#959595]I suggest the following – 4 arm positions only for mechs with lower arm actuators, where those actuators are now a new positive for their adaptability. Configurable in mechlab maybe?[/color]

[color=#959595]1. [/color][color=#959595]Arm up – this is the standard position for mechs without lower arm actuators, involves straightening the arm and bringing the gun up closer to head height.[/color]
[color=#959595]2. [/color][color=#959595]Hip Fire – the default position of arms with lower arm actuators/hands in MWO.[/color]
[color=#959595]3. [/color][color=#959595]Limp – how mechs without weaponry on an arm are positioned in MW5.[/color]
[color=#959595]4. [/color][color=#959595]Shield – swinging an arm round/forward in an attempt to maximise the arm hitbox for both side and front profile.[/color]


[color=#959595]And what about mechs with hands? Why melee ofc, pick up an arm from that downed mech and go ham! I thought to add this at the end because it's more fanciful and to be considered least among priorities at least when regarding MWO. Perhaps in a later game? At any rate, perhaps just an addendum among the myriad things to suggest be done to bring these title(s) forward.[/color]
a lot of Animations ,and problems with collision and Hitreg (hit the arm in Hip Position or the hip...and 5 Mechs in Meleee...which part hits which part from which Mech? and nothing coders and Programmers for the problems with it ,thats the same Problem ,we not become Collision Knockdown and Feet/Leg Inverse Kinetic back ...not guys for it avaible on the Job Market.

Problem : NO Coders and Programmers,and so only work with the basic Funtions in the Game ,and Maps from the community ..PGIs statement over all Years = a Clear NO

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 14 October 2020 - 01:32 AM.


#12 B0oN

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Posted 14 October 2020 - 12:08 AM

And you guys believe Daeron can make that critical, nay, magical impact to " MAKE MWO GRAET AGAIN" ?

Colour me dubious ...

#13 The6thMessenger

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Posted 14 October 2020 - 12:13 AM

View PostB0oN, on 14 October 2020 - 12:08 AM, said:

And you guys believe Daeron can make that critical, nay, magical impact to " MAKE MWO GRAET AGAIN" ?

Colour me dubious ...


You're right, PGI is the only one who could do that, and quite frankly I am not confident. That being said, I am still going to give them a chance, worst case scenario I can just leave, or who knows they might be able to pull this off and be quite the happy surprise.

#14 Monkey Lover

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Posted 14 October 2020 - 12:14 AM

View PostB0oN, on 14 October 2020 - 12:08 AM, said:

And you guys believe Daeron can make that critical, nay, magical impact to " MAKE MWO GRAET AGAIN" ?

Colour me dubious ...


Only thing Daeron can do is make the game fun enough to give Russ time to make a new game we can all switch too.

#15 Willard Phule

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Posted 14 October 2020 - 05:41 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 13 October 2020 - 06:59 PM, said:


DOTA2 has this Limited Heroes mode, it's mainly used by newbies.

I think we should have separate balance on separate environments. Like in Comp, the weapons are geared for more precision effectiveness, while the Casual environment would be more forgiving.


Here's an idea: Anyone who's registered as a "comp" player gets a bonus to range and damage, with a reduction in heat for every weapon system across the board as well as a +25% armor boost. This will allow the comp players to more efficiently harvest those stupid solo players that simply can't learn how to play like the comp players.

Making this change should, in theory, force those unwashed, inbred solo players to get the hell out of QP and go somewhere else. Then, we can rename "QP" to "Group Queue" and anyone that matters will be happy. Sure, the solos will be pissed, but who really cares about what they think, right?

The only other option is to have a way for solos to "opt in" to playing with groups, kind of like how you can pick what servers to play in (NA, Euro, Oceanic). The downside to that is that it's entirely possible that more solos will opt out of playing with groups, which will end up with increased matchmaking time for the comp players...and that's unacceptable.

#16 SoulRcannon

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 02:09 PM

View PostVeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 11:28 PM, said:


i agree with a lot of it though with the monetization i have to say that you need to really careful.

we need to keep an equal view on all of the playerbase not one group over any other.

it would take a lot for me to come back to the game though i still pop in every now and again to check out changes as i really do love the game just got boring.


Definitely don't disagree here, can't be said enough that any potential changes need to be carefully considered in such a way as to please the most people simultaneously. Changes should happen though, if only to make the best of what's left of the game now, that low hanging fruit to make it less boring, make unfun things fun again and open it up to more people.

I do have to say though, IMO the better players of this game would only benefit from the game doing better, there's nothing to gain if their suggestions on changes were framed for their benefit alone, the game would just die and they know that too. Which is why I don't think they're suggesting things with that kind of exclusive mindset. Their knowledge of game mechanics is valuable here, and at this point it's just not worth dismissing any input.

View PostWillard Phule, on 14 October 2020 - 05:41 AM, said:


Here's an idea: Anyone who's registered as a "comp" player gets a bonus to range and damage, with a reduction in heat for every weapon system across the board as well as a +25% armor boost. This will allow the comp players to more efficiently harvest those stupid solo players that simply can't learn how to play like the comp players.

Making this change should, in theory, force those unwashed, inbred solo players to get the hell out of QP and go somewhere else. Then, we can rename "QP" to "Group Queue" and anyone that matters will be happy. Sure, the solos will be pissed, but who really cares about what they think, right?



I mean, I get the snark, soup queue is far from ideal for solo players, it can be downright alienating. Which, as it so happens, is exactly the position these "comp" players took when it was force fed to us, so aiming the ire at them doesn't make as much sense? I'd have loved an 8v8 group queue with solo opt in which would've left solo queue alone, but Paul dismissed that outright and I'm still puzzled as to why.

View PostMW Waldorf Statler, on 13 October 2020 - 11:46 PM, said:

Problem : NO Coders and Programmers,and so only work with the basic Funtions in the Game ,and Maps from the community ..PGIs statement over all Years = a Clear NO


You're right here, no problem. It's likely completely outside the purview of what can be done with MWO at this point. Which is kind of what I'd said above that section and in the last paragraph there, it's likely only worth even considering on a more modern game. I mean, it's there in what you quoted...

#17 MW Waldorf Statler

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 11:46 AM

MWO has only Mangers and a little technical Crew for servers and little fixes and XML data changes ...its like a Derby Team with mangers and old damaged cars,no drivers and no Technical Crew ,and all new IT Mechatronic Guys can not repair this old cars





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