78 replies to this topic

[The pessimistic optimist]

Pajama Boy, on 14 October 2020 - 11:50 AM, said:

I'm just catching up on the lock-on weapons debate and I'm kind of understanding the problem. But I don't think the solution is to nerf or even at the extreme, remove lock-on weapons. I think it's actually a map design issue. some maps like Polar give you no cover at all against LRMs and other maps like HPG give players the tools and cover to fight missiles. The imbalance (I believe) is relative to the maps and not the base stats of the missile weapons. My personal solution is to rework maps to be more vertical with more cover.

A lot of players think MWO should be a twitch shooter

[Pajama Boy]

SirSmokes, on 14 October 2020 - 12:14 PM, said:

A lot of players think MWO should be a twitch shooter

How do you define twitch shooter? Relative to other games in the market even in the fastest mech in the game, MWO doesn't come close to matching the pace of Halo for instance. And people argue if Halo can even be defined as a twitch shooter. I think twitch shooter is kind of a buzz-word in this community with not a ton of substance.

[JediPanther]

Pajama Boy, on 14 October 2020 - 11:50 AM, said:

I think it's actually a map design issue. some maps like Polar give you no cover at all against LRMs and other maps like HPG give players the tools and cover to fight missiles. The imbalance (I believe) is relative to the maps and not the base stats of the missile weapons. My personal solution is to rework maps to be more vertical with more cover.

Polar has a lot of cover. It's just because people lemming into that open h 9 area are being really dumb. There's a few buildings with ramps spread around on the map and there are a lot of trenches. What most people never learn is that lrms and atms follow an arched path down to a target. A lot of the time I can just wait for them to start down wards to my mech and just move to the side as they impact the ground.

You can also invest in radar deprivation,mount ams on nearly every mech for 2-3 tons or lams for 1.5 tons. Also google mwo and lrm counters. I made a thread trying to count every single way you can avoid lrms and that count was into the forties.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Pajama Boy, on 14 October 2020 - 12:22 PM, said:

How do you define twitch shooter? Relative to other games in the market even in the fastest mech in the game, MWO doesn't come close to matching the pace of Halo for instance. And people argue if Halo can even be defined as a twitch shooter. I think twitch shooter is kind of a buzz-word in this community with not a ton of substance.

Well twitch shooter is were tactics and strategy take a backseat shooting fast and accurately. Very simple

Edited by SirSmokes, 14 October 2020 - 12:29 PM.

[Pajama Boy]

SirSmokes, on 14 October 2020 - 12:27 PM, said:

Well twitch shooter is were tactics and strategy take a backseat shooting fast and accurately. Very simple

That sounds exactly like something a Mechwarrior player would say. But if you want to say tactics and strategy take a back seat in a game like Rainbow 6 or Halo. Just. No. It's a different type of strategy, one where the results become apparent much faster. But things like positioning, movement and in Halo's case, power positions/weapons on a map are just as important in those games as they are in MW. "Twitch shooter" at least in my opinion implies that you're snapping from target to target so quickly it can almost emulate a twitch in your hand, but MWO's movement speed and open maps means that even at it's fastest, the pace just isn't the same as a popular FPS.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Pajama Boy, on 14 October 2020 - 12:34 PM, said:

That sounds exactly like something a Mechwarrior player would say. But if you want to say tactics and strategy take a back seat in a game like Rainbow 6 or Halo. Just. No. It's a different type of strategy, one where the results become apparent much faster. But things like positioning, movement and in Halo's case, power positions/weapons on a map are just as important in those games as they are in MW. "Twitch shooter" at least in my opinion implies that you're snapping from target to target so quickly it can almost emulate a twitch in your hand, but MWO's movement speed and open maps means that even at it's fastest, the pace just isn't the same as a popular FPS.

Well then why do so many player want lock on weapon removed?

[thievingmagpi]

SirSmokes, on 14 October 2020 - 12:27 PM, said:

Well twitch shooter is were tactics and strategy take a backseat shooting fast and accurately. Very simple

Weird that positioning is probably one of the most, if not the most important skill in mwo.

Weird that because of high ttk and the overall mechanics of weapons/armour/hitboxes, unless you're getting headshotted every single match you don't even need great aim or accurate snap shots to be effective.

SirSmokes, on 14 October 2020 - 12:37 PM, said:

Well then why do so many player want lock on weapon removed?

because mwo is an online pvp shooter not a 90s Sierra point and click game.

[Pajama Boy]

SirSmokes, on 14 October 2020 - 12:37 PM, said:

Well then why do so many player want lock on weapon removed?

You tell me. I'm fine with lock-on weapons being in the game and from my perspective the balance comes from map design. I think you're just seeing the MW community at work.

[The pessimistic optimist]

thievingmagpi, on 14 October 2020 - 12:40 PM, said:

Weird that positioning is probably one of the most, if not the most important skill in mwo.

Weird that because of high ttk and the overall mechanics of weapons/armour/hitboxes, unless you're getting headshotted every single match you don't even need great aim or accurate snap shots to be effective.



because mwo is an online pvp shooter not a 90s Sierra point and click game.

https://www.merriam-...nary/adaptation https://store.steamp...090/BATTLETECH/
god you normies are so slow

Edited by SirSmokes, 14 October 2020 - 12:43 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

SirSmokes, on 14 October 2020 - 12:41 PM, said:

https://www.merriam-...nary/adaptation https://store.steamp...090/BATTLETECH/
god you normies are so slow

cool story bro

[The pessimistic optimist]

thievingmagpi, on 14 October 2020 - 12:43 PM, said:

cool story bro

It is https://www.nessy.co...ngths-dyslexia/
https://www.dyslexia...lbert-einstein/ normie

[Pajama Boy]

SirSmokes, on 14 October 2020 - 12:41 PM, said:

https://www.merriam-...nary/adaptation https://store.steamp...090/BATTLETECH/
god you normies are so slow

That kind of attitude is not going to help anyone in the pursuit of making MW relevant again. The link to the definition of adaptation doesn't even make sense in this context. I'm pretty sure we're just arguing that the base mechanics adapted from tabletop don't even need to change. Missiles are fine and just need to be better supported by other areas of the game.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Pajama Boy, on 14 October 2020 - 12:46 PM, said:

That kind of attitude is not going to help anyone in the pursuit of making MW relevant again. The link to the definition of adaptation doesn't even make sense in this context. I'm pretty sure we're just arguing that the base mechanics adapted from tabletop don't even need to change. Missiles are fine and just need to be better supported by other areas of the game.

Hey man no idea what it like to be told most of your life you less then everyone else when you are smarter and education system failed you bud

[Pajama Boy]

Magpi I think he's lost it xD

[thievingmagpi]

Yeah, looks like he unraveled.

[Pajama Boy]

thievingmagpi, on 14 October 2020 - 12:58 PM, said:

Yeah, looks like he unraveled.

So how do you feel about the map design perspective? I think you could make LRMs do ATM damage if the maps were just a little more vertical.

[thievingmagpi]

Pajama Boy, on 14 October 2020 - 01:00 PM, said:

So how do you feel about the map design perspective? I think you could make LRMs do ATM damage if the maps were just a little more vertical.

map design would alleviate a lot of issues, but new maps aren't really feasible at this point.

they also don't really remove the underlying issues of how issue it is to do big damage with zero effort with lock on weapons. It's pretty simple really and there's a few ways to address it: 1) increase heat overall of lock on weapons 2) More GH limits on atms/lrms etc 3) reduce ATM damage overall or add significantly to the damage dropoff 4) reduce lrm/atm velocity 5) streaks need to be better against bigs and less instagib against lights 6) significantly reduce the effect of target decay

Edited by thievingmagpi, 14 October 2020 - 01:18 PM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

thievingmagpi, on 14 October 2020 - 01:04 PM, said:

map design would alleviate a lot of issues, but new maps aren't really feasible at this point.

they also don't really remove the underlying issues of how issue it is to do big damage with zero effort with lock on weapons. It's pretty simple really and there's a few ways to address it: 1) increase heat overall of lock on weapons 2) More GH limits on atms/lrms etc 3) reduce ATM damage overall or add significantly to the damage dropoff 4) reduce lrm/atm velocity 5) streaks need to be better against bigs and less instagib against lights

They suck direct fire only

[Pajama Boy]

thievingmagpi, on 14 October 2020 - 01:04 PM, said:

map design would alleviate a lot of issues, but new maps aren't really feasible at this point.

they also don't really remove the underlying issues of how issue it is to do big damage with zero effort with lock on weapons. It's pretty simple really and there's a few ways to address it: 1) increase heat overall of lock on weapons 2) More GH limits on atms/lrms etc 3) reduce AT damage overall 4) reduce lrm/atm velocity 5) streaks need to be better against bigs and less instagib against lights

We could increase minimum range maybe? Or you could make lock ons a little more local. When engaging indirectly like you would on Polar let's say, unless you have a raven with a tag laser keeping the enemy locked you won't be able to hold a lock long enough to do much. Increase the emphasis on direct visual contact. Maybe increase the spread of missiles for indirect fire but when you have visual contact the cluster becomes much tighter. So you're nerfing but also buffing at the same time.

[VeeOt Dragon]

were they sit LRM are rather well balanced no need for further nerfs. in any game with multiple weapon types you never want to make any one weapon useless. what haters tend to forget is that LRM/ATM are support weapons. hell i think the emphasis on the Brawl is ludicrous, in any combat scenario if you are in knife fight range you done ****** up. now Battletech isn't like most conventional warfare so that can have some wiggle room. in my opinion these are the uses for LRM.

1) softening the enemy for your teammates (a mech that has most of its armor stripped will be more cautious and likely not put as much fire downrange)

2)getting shots of players hiding behind cover (what cover doesn't block your fire)

3)break up an enemy push or force (i do this by shifting targets and giving each a full salvo, it works)

4)in a rare case LRM scouting, fire off a single launcher and look for the AMS

5) deal damage and get crits

(also LRM aren't the only non pinpoint weapon in the game, SRM, MRM, LBX all scatter weapons.)


to get us back on the main subject of this thread i like the idea of a Ranked play (i wouldn't use it but i can still see it as a good idea) make it the new Comp play. make if based on mech class so if you play a Light it would effect your ranking in Light mechs same for all the others. i know why the lumped the modes together but i still think it was a bad idea.