78 replies to this topic

[VeeOt Dragon]

still don't care, i don't play for score or for rank or any of that garbage (why do you think i don't touch Solaris, tried a few matches when the first released it but wasn't my thing.). i play to have fun. using the same couple builds on every mech gets boring fast. i'm not in the game to pull up a spread sheet to show how good (or otherwise) i am. i just don't care. i want a fun match that makes want to play another and another win or lose. if i start getting aggravated i quit and go play something else. (though i do feel bad when i completely whiff a match, i'll be the first to say i ****** up when i did and even when we lose i don't go around blaming the noobs. i will blame bad tactics though.)

[R0gal D0rn]

Well, as fas as i´m concerned the issue is not the skill needed to use lurms. The issue is their lack of pinpoint and the minimum distance. And of course the usual lurmer assault. New players tend to be scared of lurms, but vet players are usually able to go from cover to cover taking minimum damage, to appear at less than 299 mts of their prey... And then a Lurmer is a easy kill.

I have no big issues if i see a medium lurming in my team, is fast and manouvrable enough to poptart, escape, mantain distance, and use direct fire the most part of the time.

But a fat *** supernova or stalker can be a real handicap for their team.

1) 99 of 1oo they hide in the back of the team waiting for other team mates to lock enemies. This means 90 tons of armor lost, not shared when and where the hard fight happens.
2) They rarely select the most dangerous targets. Lurmers tend to target light and medium mechs, because they FEAR them and because die faster.
3) As a result, you can be dogfighting against another mech and receive a shower of friendly damage if the other light moves wisely. Specially if he is in a flea or piranha.
4) If the match is really balanced, you will end with a lot of damaged mechs in both sides, and what you need to win this game is scalpel accuracy weapons, and preferently not ammo dependant. This is why you see thant many matches where a Vulcan, a Phoenix Hawk or similar wins a 5 vs 1 end of game. I have not seen a match where a lurming supernova killed alone the 5 last oponents. Damage is a raw number, EFFICIENT Damage is dramatically different. A really good player can kill you in a cockpit alpha. I´m an average player and usually can kill a mech wit less of 100 damage.... Lurms shave armor, but that can be very suboptimal the most part of the time...


5) If you like light mech, you hate having Assault lurmers in your team. This means a guy that will start to beg for help in the minute 5. This means to let him learn the lesson, and feel bad teamate, and hear some rants in voice coms, or have to come back, lose half your mech against other lights and mediums (Lights are bad to hunt lights) to end maybe in a worst situation.
meanwhile you are not harasing their lurmers and snipers, so you are encouraging this guy to still bringing urmers assaults, and the enemy players doing the same are rewarded too... So for me the most ethical is NEVER HELP A LURMER ASSSAULT.
.Thre is something that player needs to learn..

Edited by Tirant Lo Blanc, 14 October 2020 - 03:32 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i can agree that an LRM assault is a waist of a mech in most games. your to slow to shoot and scoot not to mention an assault is easy prey for light when by itself. assaults should if possible be front or mid liners. i won't complain much if you have a single say LRM 10 with a single ton of ammo just to deal out a bit of damage while your slow butt gets within range of your other weapons though there are better options. as someone who often uses LRM i tend to be a second liner when i can though i will pull back to third if i'm getting focused on. even a good LRM boat shouldn't be on the front line if they can help it. getting my own locks when possible but taking advantage of any team locks. the big boys are my go to targets since its harder for them to avoid damage and need to die before all those guns get to work. though even if you don't kill a mech any armor you strip off is that much less that a teammate has to bore through to get the kill. even veterans wont just stand out in the open and get rained on if they can avoid it.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 14 October 2020 - 03:56 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

of course instead of just leaving a way in the back LRM boat to die with no help given i do at least give advice. let them know nicely that its a bad tactic and that they could do just as well up with the team. though i will berate them a bit if its an LRM assault (you know little jabs like "what are you afraid to scratch you paint?" but always in a friendly manor)

i have been caught out of position a few times myself though, target fixation can be a killer.

[RRAMIREZ]

I would subscribe to having different queues rather than different balancing.
Balancing is meaningfull in competitive perspective.


But some play their cicada anyway... because they like the mech... even if it's "low tier".
Or play partially skilled mechs, because they like grinding.
Or play lore build because... lore
At least that's I do often ^^ (except from lore) and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

You may not ALWAYS want to go for competition...
And you can also want to connect after a hard day of work and play "easy"... or try hard.
You can encourage to try competitive play, but forcing it is... forcing.

"Quick play queue" or yolo queue
play the build you like, aim as can, "come as you are"
=> specific hidden PSR

"Ranked queue" (with seasons eventual) but always present, open to solo.
=> offical PSR and official Tier

It's different from the "comp queue" as it exists now in the way it's a always avaible queue... standard queue... goto queue.

Not sure about where to allow group or not.

With a decent population it would be the way to go... and it's the case in at least 3 other pvp game I play (2 being shooters).
But with the low population, not much chance this happens (or that separating queue is a good idea)
So we won't be able to satisfy everybody... And I don't think that one side or the other is "rigth"... or both are in fact
yolo is good
try hard is good
but they don't mix well

Edited by RRAMIREZ, 14 October 2020 - 04:28 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Or, alternatively, how about a "drop down" menu that allows solos to select "play with groups" or not before hitting the Join button? Shouldn't be too hard for the MM to pull from the group that says "yes" to make teams with groups in it. Granted, it may increase matchmaking time for the comp players, but who cares?

[RRAMIREZ]

Willard Phule, on 14 October 2020 - 05:32 AM, said:

Or, alternatively, how about a "drop down" menu that allows solos to select "play with groups" or not before hitting the Join button? Shouldn't be too hard for the MM to pull from the group that says "yes" to make teams with groups in it. Granted, it may increase matchmaking time for the comp players, but who cares?

I would say that it is not an exclusive OR...
but yeah .... MM time.

[JediPanther]

I'd be fine with two environments. One for all the people that want to be in a group and one for all the people that don't want to run in a group. As for lrms I'm one of the people that wants and needs them in game due to very poor eyesight and a pos pc I can't upgrade or get a new one. If it weren't for the catapult i'd never have bothered to be a founder, spent all the years playing and spending. i've got a lot of mechs since those original four and heroes.

[MechWarrior414712]

f you think balancing should be done on the basis of playerbase being crap then we should buff the "hard" weapons and not touch the lockons. And yes tl;dr

[The pessimistic optimist]

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

i am a fan of Lore and if you took out the weapons "competitive" players hate then it would no longer be Mechwarrior. then again if you let the comp players make all the balance decisions then the game would die even faster from lack of newer players.

also take a look at BattleTech or the original table top, you don't have perfect pinpoint fire there. i don't think they would care so much about LRM if all weapons hit a relatively random location on an enemy mech. again you don't like lock on weapons go play something else.

Loads of other none Mechwarrior games to play

Edited by SirSmokes, 14 October 2020 - 09:57 AM.

[w0qj]

There's a simple solution:

1) *New* MWO players/accounts start out at Tier 5, and work their way up as they get better at this game.

2) Tier 1 & Tier 2 players can play with maximum of Tier 3 folks.
(ie: Tier 1 & Tier 2 players would never against Tier 4 & Tier 5).

This is the "Sandbox" for new MWO players, if they stay in Tier 5 or Tier 4 they would be safe until they get better at MWO.

3) I understand that this may entail occasional longer wait times for Tier 1 / Tier 2 Quick Play,
but at least MWO may get to retain the new MWO players until they have learnt the ropes of this game.

Otherwise MWO new players may quit in frustration when they are being pitted against Tier 1/2 players as some others have already alledged for this QP, which (if true) might be a crazy thing to do for this business.

Edited by w0qj, 15 October 2020 - 10:21 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

thievingmagpi, on 13 October 2020 - 08:34 PM, said:

trying to appease everyone helps no one.

take 5 minutes and learn to put a crosshair over the giant metal robot.

Some of us like to play all the weapon systems so some of us already know how to do that part just fine. I love this assumption. Also this game was never meant too be a twitch shooter there are loads of those you can play. https://www.google.c...&sclient=psy-ab

No hate on CS I played it when it was a mod I played CS Sourc and CS:GO but this is Mechwarrior

Edited by SirSmokes, 14 October 2020 - 11:22 AM.

[Pajama Boy]

Having just read the first post. At first I was like, man idk about that but it makes me think that it might not be a terrible idea. Halo is a great example of custom balancing done right with Swat. It kind of plays into Matt's idea in the recent NGNG podcast about having a custom event matchmaker where the rules change once a week. This could be a godsend for new players just trying to have some casual fun.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Pajama Boy, on 14 October 2020 - 11:13 AM, said:

Having just read the first post. At first I was like, man idk about that but it makes me think that it might not be a terrible idea. Halo is a great example of custom balancing done right with Swat. It kind of plays into Matt's idea in the recent NGNG podcast about having a custom event matchmaker where the rules change once a week. This could be a godsend for new players just trying to have some casual fun.

There a lot of things they could do to retain new players but there not doing. I always try to be as friendly and helpful to new players as I can so they want to stay.

[thievingmagpi]

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

you know i can't see why the comp players hate LRM (and ATM to lesser degree) so much.

Understanding basic balance doesn't make one a "comp" player.

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

there are so many counters to it not to mention the damage spreads out. you have AMS, EMC and good maneuvering as well as the LRM min range.

Oh yeah?

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

i'm ex-Army Missile Delivery Systems Operator (MLRS) so i like having an indirect fire option. if you want a game with no indirect fire go play something else because LRM are right there in the lore and are part of the universe.

Lots of really bad ideas are part of lore.

Lot of okay ideas exist in lore that don't work for a PVP shooter.

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

its one of the many reason i hate Meta Cry babies that ruin the game for others because they want their play style to be the only one.

Which style? Shooting at players in a pvp shooter?

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

yes locking weapons are easy to do some damage with but it takes a good bit of tactical thinking to be good with them, positioning is key.

No it really doesn't. This has been proven time and time again.

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

also you never hear the meta folks ***** about Steak SRM and they are lock on weapons.

Is that a fact?

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

leave it to them and all you would have is short range weapons taking out LLs, and PPCs and cutting the range down for the longer range ballistics.

You seem pretty sure about this.

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

then again if you let the comp players make all the balance decisions then the game would die even faster from lack of newer players.

Better balance helps retain new players and keeps them from leaving due to bad mechanics because they aren't punished by something which requires zero skill.

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

also take a look at BattleTech or the original table top, you don't have perfect pinpoint fire there. i don't think they would care so much about LRM if all weapons hit a relatively random location on an enemy mech. again you don't like lock on weapons go play something else.

MWO isn't tabletop.

[The pessimistic optimist]

thievingmagpi, on 14 October 2020 - 11:27 AM, said:

MWO isn't tabletop.

Might find this helpful https://www.merriam-...nary/adaptation
It still based on Battletech and that matters or why bother with Mechwarrior license? You know they payed to get it right? Why not just make up there own Mech game that's not based on Mechwarrior?

Edited by SirSmokes, 14 October 2020 - 11:33 AM.

[thievingmagpi]

The6thMessenger, on 13 October 2020 - 11:26 PM, said:

Hate is a strong word, but they are getting used by Comps -- as per my other thread. You have to understand about people being competitive, and that is what the "Comp" guys are, competitive. Homing-Weapons are autoaim, and they like being rewarded with good aim, some people are just like that, the Type-As.

MWO is an online pvp shooter. That doesn't make anyone who plays only pvp shooters "comp" guys or "Type-As". Those are basics of online pvp shooters.

The6thMessenger, on 13 October 2020 - 11:26 PM, said:

Sad fact is that, not a lot of people have a good rig to run this poorly-coded Piece-Of-****, that I can run Doom eternal at 60 FPS fine, but **** is still in-between 30 and 60 DPS depending on maps. That is not condusive to aiming. Likewise people don't necessarily play this game all the time to git-gud, they have life, they have jobs, it's not like everyone is a Baradul that has to play the game because it's practically their job.

MWO isn't poorly optimized.

However, it's an ~8 year old game. You not being able to run an ~8 year old game isn't someone else's fault.

I played MWO for probably half its life so far on a ****** laptop. No complaints. No need to have PGI aim for me.

The6thMessenger, on 13 October 2020 - 11:26 PM, said:

I'm honestly not fan of either, the lore-guys, sometimes put together things that may be lore-accurate, but isn't balanced. And quite frankly, i feel that Comp Guys are only really looking out for themselves, as to how they play. There's difference in philosophy there, and maybe something we can't reconcile.

Actually, "comp guys" have always espoused proper balance. "Comp guys" have always been against trash mechanics like LRMs that punish new players.

The6thMessenger, on 13 October 2020 - 11:26 PM, said:

That's why it would be good to have a Comp-Exclusive balance separate from the casual. Yes the player-base is further divided, but are you really there to compete or just to club some seals? That's like an adult competing in children's wrestling match, you know you're going to win so what's the point? And you look like predators.

Wanting good balance in a pvp game doesn't make one "comp exclusive". I've never played a single comp match.

SirSmokes, on 14 October 2020 - 11:11 AM, said:

Some of us like to play all the weapon systems so some of us already know how to do that part just fine. I love this assumption. Also this game was never meant too be a twitch shooter there are loads of those you can play. https://www.google.c...&sclient=psy-ab

No hate on CS I played it when it was a mod I played CS Sourc and CS:GO but this is Mechwarrior

MWO isn't a twitch shooter.

You not being able to walk and aim at the same time doesn't change that.

[Pajama Boy]

SirSmokes, on 14 October 2020 - 11:27 AM, said:

There a lot of things they could do to retain new players but there not doing. I always try to be as friendly and helpful to new players as I can so they want to stay.

Oh for sure. My hope with this new support initiative PGI is committing to is that they see feedback like this and utilize it. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[The pessimistic optimist]

thievingmagpi, on 14 October 2020 - 11:33 AM, said:

MWO isn't a twitch shooter.

You not being able to walk and aim at the same time doesn't change that.

OK then lock on weapons are no big deal good glad we agree and that this game is based on the Mechwarrior license an https://www.merriam-...nary/adaptation of Battletech glad we agree. I know how to drive my mech backwards well shooting love this assumption once more that just because I want to play everything I can't shoot.

Edited by SirSmokes, 14 October 2020 - 11:42 AM.

[Pajama Boy]

I'm just catching up on the lock-on weapons debate and I'm kind of understanding the problem. But I don't think the solution is to nerf or even at the extreme, remove lock-on weapons. I think it's actually a map design issue. some maps like Polar give you no cover at all against LRMs and other maps like HPG give players the tools and cover to fight missiles. The imbalance (I believe) is relative to the maps and not the base stats of the missile weapons. My personal solution is to rework maps to be more vertical with more cover.