93 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

If you're talking about MW5 it took 3 years right?

Edited by Nightbird, 22 October 2020 - 10:44 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Nightbird, on 21 October 2020 - 02:02 PM, said:

Well, here's the thing, you can't just make people and money magically appear. A workable plan has to have a very good chance of generating more income than it costs. Your approach assumes that you have or can hire cryengine v3.5 devs, which you can't today, that it's ok to put work into a dead-end engine, which it's not, and that people will magically pay money if the procedurally generated maps appear, they won't. One way trip to bankruptcy.

This version of Cryengine is dead, PGI has no cryengine devs, but they've worked on UE and have UE procedurally generated maps already. So, while you don't need to create the map tech anymore, you need to build the entire game around it. From UI to game modes, to net code, to inventories, and game flows. Finally, the monetization strategy, since selling mech packs will not work again. Basically building MWO2 which comes with work for a full team for 2 years. Lastly, marketing, to pull people in. 5 million is the bottom of what it will cost.

Got to shift those goal posts amirite? I'd love to know what is so incredibly scary about developing with cryengine that a studio can't figure out how to use it. No, there is nothing scary about it at all. The simple fact is that adding upgrades to that engine was never in PGIs plans and that is the *only* reason that hasn't been done. There are plenty of perfectly good games out there running on ancient engines with all sorts of limitations. Guild Wars 2 is a great example - new features all the time and yet another new expansion coming out. What does that thing run on? Frigging D3D9 and it's CPU bound. You love throwing estimates around and banging on about dead game engines, but that clearly does not affect game developers. Heck, lots of programming work is writing new features for old systems and not breaking anything.

[Belorion]

Nightbird, on 22 October 2020 - 10:44 AM, said:

If you're talking about MW5 it took 3 years right?

No the engine update they did to MWO...

[Nightbird]

RickySpanish, on 22 October 2020 - 11:25 AM, said:

Got to shift those goal posts amirite? I'd love to know what is so incredibly scary about developing with cryengine that a studio can't figure out how to use it. No, there is nothing scary about it at all. The simple fact is that adding upgrades to that engine was never in PGIs plans and that is the *only* reason that hasn't been done. There are plenty of perfectly good games out there running on ancient engines with all sorts of limitations. Guild Wars 2 is a great example - new features all the time and yet another new expansion coming out. What does that thing run on? Frigging D3D9 and it's CPU bound. You love throwing estimates around and banging on about dead game engines, but that clearly does not affect game developers. Heck, lots of programming work is writing new features for old systems and not breaking anything.

If you know better, you can apply for a job at PGI or we can wait to see what happens in the upcoming patches up through the release of MWO2 and see who is right.

Belorion, on 22 October 2020 - 11:29 AM, said:

No the engine update they did to MWO...

When? From what engine to what engine?

Edited by Nightbird, 22 October 2020 - 11:31 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Nightbird, on 22 October 2020 - 11:30 AM, said:

If you know better, you can apply for a job at PGI or we can wait to see what happens in the upcoming patches up through the release of MWO2 and see who is right.

No, let's not play this game you keep changing the rules of.

You stated a wildly inaccurate cost for adding more features to an exisiting engine, which is what OP implied they wanted. Then you throw in the caveat that oh, actually this requires a new engine. Then further threw in the "if you think you can do better" ad hominem and assume in conclusion, that a new MWO game would prove you right. Why don't we reign in your imagination a little and go back to cost estimates - 5 million is barmy, and the game engine is not a barrier to entry for new features, the will to work on it is.

[Belorion]

They updated it to 3.4, not sure what they came from although 3.3 would seem like the most likely.

https://mwomercs.com...ormance-update/

[Nightbird]

RickySpanish, on 22 October 2020 - 12:03 PM, said:

No, let's not play this game you keep changing the rules of.

You stated a wildly inaccurate cost for adding more features to an exisiting engine, which is what OP implied they wanted. Then you throw in the caveat that oh, actually this requires a new engine. Then further threw in the "if you think you can do better" ad hominem and assume in conclusion, that a new MWO game would prove you right. Why don't we reign in your imagination a little and go back to cost estimates - 5 million is barmy, and the game engine is not a barrier to entry for new features, the will to work on it is.

Where in the OP does it say updating the existing engine? It just said adding procedural maps as a feature.

Making sure a company stays funded is just a failure to have will huh? I'll keep that in mind lul.

Belorion, on 22 October 2020 - 12:18 PM, said:

They updated it to 3.4, not sure what they came from although 3.3 would seem like the most likely.

https://mwomercs.com...ormance-update/

Pushing through a small version update is very different from changing to a different engine altogether.

[RickySpanish]

Nightbird, on 22 October 2020 - 12:50 PM, said:

Where in the OP does it say updating the existing engine?

In technical design, or anywhere really, it's often prudent to keep things simple, Simon.

Nightbird, on 22 October 2020 - 12:50 PM, said:

Making sure a company stays funded is just a failure to have will huh? I'll keep that in mind lul.

Not at all relevant, I am simply stating that adding new features to the cry engine was probably avoided for reasons other than technical ability. By now, had the desire been there, any of the remaining developers at PGI could have learnt how to modify the engine. They've chosen not to.

[Nightbird]

RickySpanish, on 22 October 2020 - 04:52 PM, said:

In technical design, or anywhere really, it's often prudent to keep things simple, Simon.

No, it's prudent to be prudent. Taking the long view.

[RickySpanish]

Nightbird, on 22 October 2020 - 05:29 PM, said:

No, it's prudent to be prudent. Taking the long view.

Sir, your prudence is so overly prudent as to not be properly prudent.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

RickySpanish, on 22 October 2020 - 04:52 PM, said:

In technical design, or anywhere really, it's often prudent to keep things simple, Simon.



Not at all relevant, I am simply stating that adding new features to the cry engine was probably avoided for reasons other than technical ability. By now, had the desire been there, any of the remaining developers at PGI could have learnt how to modify the engine. They've chosen not to.

For learning you must have interest and and long years of expirience and you can lear simple Basics, ..we speaking not from little workers thats gone from PGI ,we speaking from the technical Specialists thats coded and modified the Engine and thgats not simple Handwork , thats like ...hey Tina Benoit, you not longer Community Manager, you now Cry Engine Specialists ...PGI was after 2015 like a hospital who the doctors gone, and only a handfull nurses and the cleaning service was further by the job.

..and today , CEOs not learn , thinking we find and hiring Guys thats make the work, and when all (or many) the works is done and the Guys says ...no we not can make this stupid idea in this Deadline,or with will better tools ,or thats ist stupid and unrealistic , the guys can leaves,and the CEO thinking ,we find each time new Guys for tahts work ...and the bubble crashed with the Reality. In my company we working further in a working cell with windows 3.1 while the programmers is died before 15 years and the company found for less money not engineer that's can write the software new for win 10

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 22 October 2020 - 07:28 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

Procedural maps are bad and have always been bad and will probably always be bad for quite some time into the future.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

RickySpanish, on 22 October 2020 - 11:25 AM, said:

Got to shift those goal posts amirite? I'd love to know what is so incredibly scary about developing with cryengine that a studio can't figure out how to use it. No, there is nothing scary about it at all. The simple fact is that adding upgrades to that engine was never in PGIs plans and that is the *only* reason that hasn't been done. There are plenty of perfectly good games out there running on ancient engines with all sorts of limitations. Guild Wars 2 is a great example - new features all the time and yet another new expansion coming out. What does that thing run on? Frigging D3D9 and it's CPU bound. You love throwing estimates around and banging on about dead game engines, but that clearly does not affect game developers. Heck, lots of programming work is writing new features for old systems and not breaking anything.

You can speak english ? so no problem to writing and speaking  in Kisuaheli, Antique Greek or russian ,all only human languages and no Problem...this Engine is coded , thats a little like the german Enigma Machine in WWII, personal Codes set in the engine with own rules in a Unknow personal Language

Quote

They updated it to 3.4, not sure what they came from although 3.3 would seem like the most likely.

https://mwomercs.com...ormance-update/

Yes thats was Matthew Craig the Senio Technical Director ,here leaves with Senior Dev Engineer Karl berg 2015 the Company and nothing technical Statement further from PGI up to the Start from MW5 and Statements to MW5

after it no teachers by the PGI School

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 23 October 2020 - 05:35 AM.

[RickySpanish]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 23 October 2020 - 05:14 AM, said:

You can speak english ? so no problem to writing and speaking  in Kisuaheli, Antique Greek or russian ,all only human languages and no Problem...this Engine is coded , thats a little like the german Enigma Machine in WWII, personal Codes set in the engine with own rules in a Unknow personal Language



Yes thats was Matthew Craig the Senio Technical Director ,here leaves with Senior Dev Engineer Karl berg 2015 the Company and nothing technical Statement further from PGI up to the Start from MW5 and Statements to MW5

after it no teachers by the PGI School

I can read, write and speak three languages, two fluently, so actually learning a new language may not be impossible for me. Certainly I know and regularly code in many languages and APIs. My company recently purchased the entire stock of its competitor's arcade cabinets, running on a proprietary engine. The engine includes everything from graphics rendering to bill validation, although my speciality is graphics and games programming. There is very little documentation for the engine, and none for how the game event system works. And yet... I now know enough to build new components and games from scratch for it. We've added a host of new features and games, we've updated various parts of the codebase, we converted the entire project (about 150 components and thousands of code files) from visual studio 2005 to 2019. Nowhere did we say "well damn, we can't do this, we don't know how this works!! Plz give us easier work!". No, because we are professionals and we know what the heck we are doing, and a complex system isn't so complex when you start experimenting with it and crucially, have been given the time to work on it.

[The pessimistic optimist]

thievingmagpi, on 22 October 2020 - 06:57 PM, said:

Procedural maps are bad and have always been bad and will probably always be bad for quite some time into the future.

Nope https://www.google.c...Q4dUDCAw&uact=5

Edited by SirSmokes, 23 October 2020 - 06:34 AM.

[Schwarzklang]

I dont think its possible with cry engine. At least not with the version MWO runs with. I mean i would be nice if they would update the terrain with higher tectures, more details etc. But i dont think it will happen. hey are not blizzard with hundred of thousand people paying 10 buck each month.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Schwarzklang, on 23 October 2020 - 08:57 AM, said:

I dont think its possible with cry engine. At least not with the version MWO runs with. I mean i would be nice if they would update the terrain with higher tectures, more details etc. But i dont think it will happen. hey are not blizzard with hundred of thousand people paying 10 buck each month.

Like I said cool idea but a pipe dream.

[thievingmagpi]

SirSmokes, on 23 October 2020 - 06:19 AM, said:

Nope https://www.google.c...Q4dUDCAw&uact=5

Okay let's see here.

Oh cool, perfect example. All of these are examples of procgen being trash. Especially the biggest example of its absolute failure; No Man's Sky.

Sorry bud, Dwarf Fortress isn't an online pvp FPS. The fact that it can *procedurally* create a map has literally nothing to do with MWO and proc gen. No place for procedural generation here because it sucks and is only capable of creating very basic things.

Sorry, you were saying?

Edited by thievingmagpi, 23 October 2020 - 11:04 AM.

[Nightbird]

star citizen's procedural generation tech which you can visit in game today

[The pessimistic optimist]

thievingmagpi, on 23 October 2020 - 11:02 AM, said:

Okay let's see here.

Oh cool, perfect example. All of these are examples of procgen being trash. Especially the biggest example of its absolute failure; No Man's Sky.

Sorry bud, Dwarf Fortress isn't an online pvp FPS. The fact that it can *procedurally* create a map has literally nothing to do with MWO and proc gen. No place for procedural generation here because it sucks and is only capable of creating very basic things.

Sorry, you were saying?

Sorry man when it done well it is great. Great game https://www.google.c...iw=1680&bih=880
great game
https://www.google.c...iw=1680&bih=880
Oh almost forgot got
OMG silly me almost forgot https://www.google.c...iw=1680&bih=880
OMG silly me forgot https://www.google.c...iw=1680&bih=880
great game
https://www.google.c...iw=1680&bih=880
great game
https://www.google.c...iw=1680&bih=880
not a fan of rougelikes I guess not being a fan of something doesn't make it craphttps://www.google.c...iw=1680&bih=880

Edited by SirSmokes, 23 October 2020 - 11:22 AM.