21 replies to this topic

[D A T A]

I am curious to know how the guys on this forum would perceive the following change (all inclusive):

LESS uac jam chance (means, will jam way less)
MORE uac jam duration (means, in case they jam, will stay jammed for longer)


REASON: uacs are meant for burst fire, but currently they just shoot in a constant flow with some jams here and there: the overall sustained DPS is the same as regular ballistics, so there is no real gameplay design difference between UACs and regular ACs.

With this change you could peek, do a good amount of damage and most likely not turbo-jam at the first double click, shoot for a bit and then you would have to hide while the uacs are unjamming.

ACs would be better at sustained DPS, as they are meant to be

UACs would be good at peeking, bursting for a bit, then hide, but worse if you keep staying in the open when they are jammed, which is exactly what their game design was

jam chance form 15%actual to 10%-12%
jam duration from 6-8actual to 8-12 secs


ofc the values can be stretched even more without nerfing nor buffing, cause the program calculates it

we have a program that calculates the overall dps over time or the "damage per time including jams" we can stay sure that overall they don't get either nerfed nor buffed, just pushed more into their role)

Edited by D A T A, 22 October 2020 - 08:00 AM.

[Nightbird]

I'm not sure how you can make them jam way less without making the duration basically the rest of the match. Present some numbers with average DPS calculated and you'll see the problem...

[martian]

What about Rotary Autocannons?

[Nightbird]

D A T A, on 20 October 2020 - 12:22 PM, said:

jam chance form 15%actual to 10%
jam duration from 6-8actual to 8-10


ofc the values can be stretched even more without nerfing nor buffing, cause the program calculates it

Since these values were added in, I'll just weigh in.

Take the C-UAC10, with 17% Jam chance and 8s Jam time. It has (disregarding burst duration) 4.74 avgDPS (no skill). Changing it to 10% jam chance and 10s jam duration, avgDPS=5.43. An almost 15% buff. To keep avgDPS the same at jam chance of 10%, you need a jam duration of 15.1 seconds.

I was thinking 5% when you said way less, but 10% is doable if 15s is OK.

Edited by Nightbird, 20 October 2020 - 01:51 PM.

[K O Z A K]

Wouldn't that still make them better, since you can dump out a couple double taps with less jams, and then once all jammed your longer jam cooldown time would just be synced up to the heat dissipation time that's required with uac builds? So less face time?

It drives me mad when uacs jam now, but at the same time theyre still overall one of the better performing weapons

[The6thMessenger]

I'd rather the UACs just shoot as they jam. At least your peek isn't wasted.

As for the RACs, they should do 100% Jam Chance on redline, and halve the Jam Duration and Dissipation.

[The pessimistic optimist]

The6thMessenger, on 20 October 2020 - 02:24 PM, said:

I'd rather the UACs just shoot as they jam. At least your peek isn't wasted.

As for the RACs, they should do 100% Jam Chance on redline, and halve the Jam Duration and Dissipation.

It's more just a luck thing. Sometimes they start jamming on the first shots other times you can keep fire till you shut down. That can make them inconsistent and they can be annoying when you are wrong end of RNG and happy when RNG gods are on your side.

Edited by SirSmokes, 20 October 2020 - 02:45 PM.

[Bud Crue]

I'd be all for this change. I am s sick of trying to play a mech like the Phract 3D -with 30% jam chance reduction (plus both skill...thingies (leaves, fruit, flowers pistols, stamens..nodes?) applied)- only to specifically try to NOT double tap, yet some how do so inadvertently, and have both guns jam ...over and over again. Also even ignoring my incompetence/perpetual bad luck/drunken inability to not accidentally double click, this sort of change would do wonders for potential build diversity for those mechs with only single ballistic hard points.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Bud Crue, on 20 October 2020 - 02:43 PM, said:

I'd be all for this change. I am s sick of trying to play a mech like the Phract 3D -with 30% jam chance reduction (plus both skill...thingies (leaves, fruit, flowers pistols, stamens..nodes?) applied)- only to specifically try to NOT double tap, yet some how do so inadvertently, and have both guns jam ...over and over again. Also even ignoring my incompetence/perpetual bad luck/drunken inability to not accidentally double click, this sort of change would do wonders for potential build diversity for those mechs with only single ballistic hard points.

I am not sure what the right answer is but we should be careful here. UAC are post to have the draw back of having jams to balance the fact they can double tap. So maybe they might be too jam happy not sure but lets not go too far the other way make them not jam enough

Edited by SirSmokes, 20 October 2020 - 03:31 PM.

[Gagis]

Jamming is a bad game mechanic.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Gagis, on 20 October 2020 - 03:07 PM, said:

Jamming is a bad game mechanic.

What do you propose to balance UAC then?

Edited by SirSmokes, 20 October 2020 - 03:20 PM.

[Gagis]

SirSmokes, on 20 October 2020 - 03:19 PM, said:

What do you propose to balance UAC then?

The stream fire clan autocannons have is a good tradeoff. Getting you more dps but also more spread for the damage that goes out. No idea what the reasonable cooldown values for various ballistics should be under such a balance. Faster for ultras, but by how much, no idea.

[The6thMessenger]

SirSmokes, on 20 October 2020 - 02:41 PM, said:

It's more just a luck thing. Sometimes they start jamming on the first shots other times you can keep fire till you shut down. That can make them inconsistent and they can be annoying when you are wrong end of RNG and happy when RNG gods are on your side.

The firing-as-it-jam would make it less of a surprise though. Less frustrating to the shooter that way, and you can instead increase the jam-chance to something like 30%.

RACs at 100% redline with reduced jam duration and dissipation would also mean less frustration, it's also more consistent and easier to balance. It's predictable that players can instead juggle the bar responsibly.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 20 October 2020 - 03:36 PM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

The6thMessenger, on 20 October 2020 - 03:34 PM, said:

The firing-as-it-jam would make it less of a surprise though. Less frustrating to the shooter that way, and you can instead increase the jam-chance to something like 30%.

RACs at 100% redline with reduced jam duration and dissipation would also mean less frustration, it's also more consistent and easier to balance. It's predictable that players can instead juggle the bar responsibly.

I like that idea it would make it little less annoying

Edited by SirSmokes, 20 October 2020 - 03:44 PM.

[R Valentine]

You just need the jam chance to scale with every consistent double tap. First double tap 5% chance, second 20% chance, 3rd 50% chance. Etc. Etc. The chance resets after staying off the double tap for 10 seconds or so. That way the burst is there when you need it and it's there consistently, but you can't just blast away with impunity.

[The6thMessenger]

Kiran Yagami, on 20 October 2020 - 04:10 PM, said:

You just need the jam chance to scale with every consistent double tap. First double tap 5% chance, second 20% chance, 3rd 50% chance. Etc. Etc. The chance resets after staying off the double tap for 10 seconds or so. That way the burst is there when you need it and it's there consistently, but you can't just blast away with impunity.

If that's the case, why not just make it magazine-based or something? If you're just there to prevent continuous fire, you can do so with a select number of double-taps before jamming.

[Nightbird]

You could, but any additional certainty to guarantee the first double tap will probably need some drawbacks to balance it out. Maintaining the average DPS as today wouldn't do it as it'll still be a net buff.

[Y E O N N E]

Would it not be far simpler to just increase the base cool-down time on UACs relative to standard ACs if what you want to achieve is lower average DPS?

[D A T A]

Miss Greene, on 20 October 2020 - 06:03 PM, said:

Would it not be far simpler to just increase the base cool-down time on UACs relative to standard ACs if what you want to achieve is lower average DPS?

i don't want lower average dps, i want better performance (slightly better) in a peek and burst environment, worse performance on sitting in the open: just lower cooldown= worse at both

Edited by D A T A, 22 October 2020 - 08:04 AM.

[Nightbird]

Easy then, lower the average DPS and lower the jam chance. 10% jam and 20sec duration would do it.