19 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Why add Ammo/Ton bonus quirks to a light?

Because it's fun.

The Ammo/Ton isn't for the Machine-Guns, the AC2s, AC5s, UAC5s, RAC2 and RAC5s, no it's for the AC10s, UAC10s, AC20, UAC20s, the GR, and the HGR. Because it's fun slapping those in lights.

And while yes, I agree, the point of them being heavy is that they aren't really supposed to be carried by lightweight mechs. But they are fun, you have to sacrifice a lot to get a weapon there.

It will also provide more viability for the missile-builds on some of the lighter light-mechs, and bring playstyle diversity with chassis. The Locust 3S for example, the Locust itself is best ran with energy-weapons because it's so lightweight, you have better damage over a course of the match with energy weapon. But with it, if you double the ammo/ton of even the missile weapons, you bring better viability to light missile-builds, and thus provides more alternative playstyles.

Will it bring meta? I would argue not. Energy and Missile weapons will still be superior to a lighter mech. But it lends them viability and longevity, you can have your fun for longer, if it's not as effective.

If it's not going to ruin the balance anyways, why not just let people have their fun? Locust is a good example, the God-Quirked 1-E CT hardpoint, it's never going to be that viable versus alternatives, but it exists because it's fun.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 October 2020 - 01:42 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Yup I could see some fun to be had using bigger guns if you weren't quite so ammo starved. Might be neat to reduce crit receiving on those builds too maybe, to reduce the likelihood of an exposed internal losing that weapon. I don't know how well that would help but I am not sure how else to bolster the survivability of Lights carrying standard engines without similarly affecting regular, XL speed freaks. Man what would be cool though, is if quirks could be activated when specific build configurations are met. Then you could add +x armour when carrying an AC20 etc.

[martian]

The6thMessenger, on 18 October 2020 - 01:42 AM, said:

...
And while yes, I agree, the point of them being heavy is that they aren't really supposed to be carried by lightweight mechs. But they are fun, you have to sacrifice a lot to get a weapon there.
...

Meet the BZK-F3 Hollander

35 tons, one Gauss Rifle ...

Ideal for sniping - 90% of the 'Mech can stay hidden behind some obstacle.



The Lyrans disagree with "Gauss Rifles aren't really supposed to be carried by lightweight mechs".

The6thMessenger, on 18 October 2020 - 01:42 AM, said:

But they are fun, you have to sacrifice a lot to get a weapon there.

The Hollander sacrificed armor, speed and everything else.

[JediPanther]

Raven 4x is the mech you guys want and need. xl 200 the mandatory 2x hs and the big guns are yours. Best of all it is a LOT of speed compared to the anemic urbie's speed. Extra ammo for those big guns? Hell yeah. That ammo nodes in skill tree should be forgotten. 7 rounds only for ac 20 with 2 or 3 from those nodes? git outa 'ere with dat trash. Give the lights only 100 extra rounds per ac 20. Same for guass.

And since we want the big guns lets add on er ppc and hppc heat reduction quirk of -50% so that light can fire it way more often since the sky high heat and ghost heat crap plus weight limit those two types of ppc on lights so much. Velocity is great for the heavies but the lights need dps for those two weapon types. The limit of 2 er ppc or hppc can stay since you can't fit more than that on a light mech.

[Black Caiman]

Why does the Hollander's head look canted like 45 degrees to the side. Its like it would have to torso twist to look at its target, then twist back to shoot the gauss rifle. That would be a real interesting mech to try and pilot in MWO. Lets do it!

[martian]

Black Caiman, on 18 October 2020 - 09:30 AM, said:

Why does the Hollander's head look canted like 45 degrees to the side. Its like it would have to torso twist to look at its target, then twist back to shoot the gauss rifle. That would be a real interesting mech to try and pilot in MWO. Lets do it!

The first edition of that Technical Readout had two kinds of illustrations: Horrible and terrible.

But in the reprint Matt Plog attempted to save what was possible.

See the new illustration:




The cockpit is actually forward-facing.

[w0qj]

Reliable alliance intel indicate that the above illustration may not be completely correct...

the turret may be located further down at the hip...

[The6thMessenger]

RickySpanish, on 18 October 2020 - 08:37 AM, said:

Yup I could see some fun to be had using bigger guns if you weren't quite so ammo starved. Might be neat to reduce crit receiving on those builds too maybe, to reduce the likelihood of an exposed internal losing that weapon. I don't know how well that would help but I am not sure how else to bolster the survivability of Lights carrying standard engines without similarly affecting regular, XL speed freaks. Man what would be cool though, is if quirks could be activated when specific build configurations are met. Then you could add +x armour when carrying an AC20 etc.

Crit Reduction quirk might be overkill, considering that you aren't supposed to get hit constantly to begin with as a light.

JediPanther, on 18 October 2020 - 09:19 AM, said:

And since we want the big guns lets add on er ppc and hppc heat reduction quirk of -50% so that light can fire it way more often since the sky high heat and ghost heat crap plus weight limit those two types of ppc on lights so much. Velocity is great for the heavies but the lights need dps for those two weapon types. The limit of 2 er ppc or hppc can stay since you can't fit more than that on a light mech.

It has unlimited ammo, and the lights can play the long-game, albeit at the cost of your DPS.

That's not the same with ammo-starvation. There is no trick in prolonging the usability of your weapon, at 2 tons of AC20 ammo, with Magazine Nodes, that is just 20 shots, or 400 damage. That is it.

The PNT-9R with 2x ERPPC for example, each ERPPC does 11.475 heat every 3.4s, doing 3.375 HPS, and 6.75 HPS total. With 2.20 Heat Dissipation and 5.8824 DPS, that is just effectively 1.9172 SDPS.

Sure, the AC20 of the Urbanmech, at 6 heat every 3.2, is at 1.875 HPS, which won't really build up heat with DHS, means it's at maximum 6.25 DPS, which is basically 3x that of an ERPPC.

The 2x ERPPC can fire over the course of the game, biding its time. But a 3-Ton AC20 ammo is just that, 600 damage, and that is on top of severe armor shave and a drop down to Heavy/Assault speed. If you have to build it that it at least reaches 76 to 81 KPH, and still have max armor, your ammunition will only be at 12 to 15 shots, or just 240 to 300 damage.

In the course of 15 minutes, of 900 seconds, that is a theoretical ceiling of 1725.49 Damage. That means, the Panther needs only 312.9545 seconds (or 5.2159 Minutes) to match the maximum damage of an AC20 Urbie with 3 tons of ammo.

Your argument for heat isn't really just the same.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 October 2020 - 02:43 PM.

[LordNothing]

martian, on 18 October 2020 - 09:42 AM, said:

The first edition of that Technical Readout had two kinds of illustrations: Horrible and terrible.

But in the reprint Matt Plog attempted to save what was possible.

See the new illustration:




The cockpit is actually forward-facing.

theres nothing quite like a big gun on a little mech.

i also like the miniature clan version from mwll. unfortunately there is only two variants (the 200kph masc variant, which you cant use, and the heavy laser boat). i think living legends had a ballistic variant but i dont remember what it was.

Edited by LordNothing, 18 October 2020 - 04:34 PM.

[martian]

LordNothing, on 18 October 2020 - 04:08 PM, said:

theres nothing quite like a big gun on a little mech.

i also like the miniature clan version from mwll. unfortunately there is only two variants (the 200kph masc variant, which you cant use, and the heavy laser boat). i think living legends had a ballistic variant but i dont remember what it was.

I prefer the Hellion. Specifically, the alternate configuration B with Heavy Large Laser for mid-range harassing and Heavy and Small Mediums for a short-range barrage.

But other configurations are good too.

I am always happy to obtain the Hellion when playing a campaign.

[Johnny Slam]

Great thread

[Willard Phule]

How about just letting lights go 10 tons overweight if it's ammo?

[Johnny Slam]

Willard Phule, on 21 October 2020 - 10:57 AM, said:

How about just letting lights go 10 tons overweight if it's ammo?

That makes no sense, what is your point you are trying to make?

Edited by Johnny Slam, 21 October 2020 - 11:57 AM.

[LordNothing]

we already get phantom ammo upgrades through the skill tree. so i see no problem with ammo/ton quirks. of course i worry that is just going to bring the troll builds out in force. id drop in a uac20 raven every time if i had more than a few rounds to play with.

also this problem is mostly with is lights, some clan lights can already handle good size ballistics. i got a pair of ac5s on a jenner iic-fy ffs. uac10 adder/cougars.

i think the fix is lacs. or any ballistics in the 2-5t range. a bracket filled with lore weapons. including lac2,5 medium rifle (clans might get the protomech ac2,4 to fill more or less the same role). medium rifle has similar stats to the lac5, so maybe make the lacs burst fire and the medium rifle a single shot weapon thats kind of in the middle dps wise.

you might also bring more < 2t ballistics as well. like magshot and vgl, maybe ap gauss. for fleas and fish.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 October 2020 - 03:12 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Johnny Slam, on 21 October 2020 - 11:56 AM, said:

That makes no sense, what is your point you are trying to make?

We already get twice the ammo per ton versus classic MW/BT. I simply fail to see how X rounds of ammunition become X+Y% equals a ton. I have actually touched firearms in my life and know that a 30 round magazine weighs as much as a 30 round magazine, no matter who made the ammo.

LordNothing, on 21 October 2020 - 03:11 PM, said:

we already get phantom ammo upgrades through the skill tree. so i see no problem with ammo/ton quirks. of course i worry that is just going to bring the troll builds out in force. id drop in a uac20 raven every time if i had more than a few rounds to play with.

also this problem is mostly with is lights, some clan lights can already handle good size ballistics. i got a pair of ac5s on a jenner iic-fy ffs. uac10 adder/cougars.

i think the fix is lacs. or any ballistics in the 2-5t range. a bracket filled with lore weapons. including lac2,5 medium rifle (clans might get the protomech ac2,4 to fill more or less the same role). medium rifle has similar stats to the lac5, so maybe make the lacs burst fire and the medium rifle a single shot weapon thats kind of in the middle dps wise.

you might also bring more < 2t ballistics as well. like magshot and vgl, maybe ap gauss. for fleas and fish.

Actually, the HAG (Hyper Assault Gauss) would be appropriate for the Clans. Ultimately, by TT rules, it's reasonably close to how MRMs work mechanically, just with gauss instead of missiles (cluster rules, the sizes available and range are similar). AP Gauss would also work, since ultimately, it fits into the MG role and pairs well with CERMLs.

[LordNothing]

Willard Phule, on 21 October 2020 - 04:06 PM, said:

We already get twice the ammo per ton versus classic MW/BT. I simply fail to see how X rounds of ammunition become X+Y% equals a ton. I have actually touched firearms in my life and know that a 30 round magazine weighs as much as a 30 round magazine, no matter who made the ammo.



Actually, the HAG (Hyper Assault Gauss) would be appropriate for the Clans. Ultimately, by TT rules, it's reasonably close to how MRMs work mechanically, just with gauss instead of missiles (cluster rules, the sizes available and range are similar). AP Gauss would also work, since ultimately, it fits into the MG role and pairs well with CERMLs.

i was specifically refering to weapons capable of being mounted on lights with enough tonnage left over for ammo. but hell il take a hag. might be able to shove it into a cougar. err. i cant make that not sound wrong.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 October 2020 - 04:12 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

LordNothing, on 21 October 2020 - 03:11 PM, said:

we already get phantom ammo upgrades through the skill tree. so i see no problem with ammo/ton quirks. of course i worry that is just going to bring the troll builds out in force. id drop in a uac20 raven every time if i had more than a few rounds to play with.

also this problem is mostly with is lights, some clan lights can already handle good size ballistics. i got a pair of ac5s on a jenner iic-fy ffs. uac10 adder/cougars.

i think the fix is lacs. or any ballistics in the 2-5t range. a bracket filled with lore weapons. including lac2,5 medium rifle (clans might get the protomech ac2,4 to fill more or less the same role). medium rifle has similar stats to the lac5, so maybe make the lacs burst fire and the medium rifle a single shot weapon thats kind of in the middle dps wise.

you might also bring more < 2t ballistics as well. like magshot and vgl, maybe ap gauss. for fleas and fish.

LACs are just one playstyle of ballistics, mainly dakka.

AC20s and UAC20s, LB20X, HGRs, GRs, even LGRs, AC10s and UAC10s are actively out of lights' possible playstyle. Hell, the SRM6s and SRM4s aren't good choices for a locust, so no missile effective 20-tonners because of ammo shortage.

By providing ammo/ton, they can put less ammo units in the mech, and opt to something like more JJ or higher engine. The Urbanmech alone, the jump between 180 XL to 170 XL is 0.5 tons after 10 HS, the jump from 170 XL to 145 XL is another 0.5t after 10 HS, the jump from 170 XL to 125 XL (since same HS allotment) is 1 ton. Funnily enough the XL100 is not a good choice, because it's the same tons as LFE100, but do not have the same vulnerability.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 October 2020 - 04:30 PM.

[LordNothing]

The6thMessenger, on 21 October 2020 - 04:29 PM, said:

LACs are just one playstyle of ballistics, mainly dakka.

AC20s and UAC20s, LB20X, HGRs, GRs, even LGRs, AC10s and UAC10s are actively out of lights' possible playstyle. Hell, the SRM6s and SRM4s aren't good choices for a locust, so no missile effective 20-tonners because of ammo shortage.

By providing ammo/ton, they can put less ammo units in the mech, and opt to something like more JJ or higher engine. The Urbanmech alone, the jump between 180 XL to 170 XL is 0.5 tons after 10 HS, the jump from 170 XL to 145 XL is another 0.5t after 10 HS, the jump from 170 XL to 125 XL (since same HS allotment) is 1 ton. Funnily enough the XL100 is not a good choice, because it's the same tons as LFE100, but do not have the same vulnerability.

idk if id call it a playstyle. its just a lower caliber version of the standard acs. so they play roughtly the same as the big boy version. to get the same damage rating they burst fire (its the same logic i use for explaining why clan ballistics are typically lighter than the is version). if you dont want burst use the medium rifle instead. sort of around where an ac3 would be if such a weapon existed.

these low tonnage ballistics could have ammo buffed specifically for lights. but then give them steep ghost heat to avoid boating of them in large numbers. thus they can be buffed to be very strong on lights, but inferior to other ballistics when you have some more tonnage to work with.

there are plenty of big gun small mech builds available to both is and clan, but i really think they need to be rare and should be limited. i even pulled a 500 damage game in a uac20 raven. unfortunately thats about all it can do before the ammo runs out (and part of that was the single er small laser i use when i run out of ammo). i dont expect seeing any 20 tonners with a gauss rifle, but large guns are still quite possible with extreme sacrifices.

the problem i think lights have is that there are very few viable ballistic options with only a handful of builds capable of doing well with large or even medium ballistics. most of them revolve around being machine gun boats or have a few supplemental machine gun hardpoints. sometimes you will see a single ac5 or uac2, maybe even a rac2 on 30+ tonners. just adding light ballistics opens a lot of doors as far as playstyles go. i could make my dual lac2 pirates bane work (std100 + endo + ff + 6dhs + 2 lac2s + 1.5t ammo - some armor).

Edited by LordNothing, 21 October 2020 - 07:18 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

LordNothing, on 21 October 2020 - 06:57 PM, said:

idk if id call it a playstyle. its just a lower caliber version of the standard acs. so they play roughtly the same as the big boy version. to get the same damage rating they burst fire (its the same logic i use for explaining why clan ballistics are typically lighter than the is version). if you dont want burst use the medium rifle instead. sort of around where an ac3 would be if such a weapon existed.

With their CD, they will be starey than point-shield.

LordNothing, on 21 October 2020 - 06:57 PM, said:

these low tonnage ballistics could have ammo buffed specifically for lights. but then give them steep ghost heat to avoid boating of them in large numbers. thus they can be buffed to be very strong on lights, but inferior to other ballistics when you have some more tonnage to work with.

Massing them is exactly the point, and it is defeated with Ghost-heat. It could get away by being burst-fired.

LordNothing, on 21 October 2020 - 06:57 PM, said:

there are plenty of big gun small mech builds available to both is and clan, but i really think they need to be rare and should be limited. i even pulled a 500 damage game in a uac20 raven. unfortunately thats about all it can do before the ammo runs out (and part of that was the single er small laser i use when i run out of ammo). i dont expect seeing any 20 tonners with a gauss rifle, but large guns are still quite possible with extreme sacrifices.

True. Then again Missile builds would still be legitimate choices.

LordNothing, on 21 October 2020 - 06:57 PM, said:

the problem i think lights have is that there are very few viable ballistic options with only a handful of builds capable of doing well with large or even medium ballistics. most of them revolve around being machine gun boats or have a few supplemental machine gun hardpoints. just adding light ballistics opens a lot of doors as far as playstyles go.

True, but that's just one playstyle since the LAC5 and LAC2s would still be just dakkas. The already existing AC10s, UAC10s, AC20s, UAC20s, LGR, GR, HGRs, that will contribute a lot as well in diversifying fights.

Yes, I don't expect a locust to boat an AC10, much less a gauss, but the rest of the mechs like Urbanmech does.

[Darian DelFord]

How about we boost the lights that actually need this. Like a Locust :>