37 replies to this topic

[RickySpanish]

^ Oh I think they will. They will trial it for a month with bunches of images and graphs and show how stomps only went up by 5%. But as time goes on it slowly becomes clear that whatever mutant implementation of an initially good idea they chose is really just making things worse. These further issues of course, fixable with a little care and attention, will remain unaddressed and eventually all queues will be merged into Solaris 7 - because in S7 only two active players need to be present for a match to kick off.

[RRAMIREZ]

Acolyte of the Chin, on 28 October 2020 - 07:33 AM, said:

It'd be nice if PGI were to give group 8v8 a go.

I don't think it'd matter much for quickplay or make sense if group were still up to four people.

It's really different from what OP proposed.
It's closer to what was discussed in
https://mwomercs.com...to-improve-mwo/
(8v8 group Q with solo opt-in in addition to soloQ)

Edited by RRAMIREZ, 28 October 2020 - 08:02 AM.

[Belorion]

I don't think it should as a matter of course, but perhaps include 8v8 game modes.

[Celthora]

You need an average iq to realize this games competition is broken since it switched to 12v12. This game was 8v8 when it was doing its best times. [Redacted]

[Belorion]

Celthora, on 28 October 2020 - 10:32 AM, said:

You need an average iq to realize this games competition is broken since it switched to 12v12. This game was 8v8 when it was doing its best times [Redacted]

[Redacted]
Weakly argued, and therefor invalid. Just because you "feel" that way doesn't make it true. I liked 8v8 but also like 12v12. There were just as many stomps in the 8v8 days.

[TheCaptainJZ]

What if QP became 8v8 and group queue came back as 8v8 also and split off? Most of the negatives of reducing QP to 8 right now is the large impact of groups. Main problem is not enough population to make any changes right now. Making any changes will not substantially increase population. Other things have to happen for that. It would be nice if we had a constant influx of players to support a new player queue that you have to graduate from.

I wonder if it's technically feasible to have 8v8 play in tier 4/5 only, 12v12 in tier 1/2 only, and tier 3 can go into either. You wouldn't need a separate group queue because any good ones will naturally move to tier 1/2.

[Heavy Money]

I think 8v8 would cause a lot of problems, as others have mentioned.

Now what would be interesting is 4v4 using the Solaris maps, and perhaps dropdeck respawns too.

[RickySpanish]

Heavy Money, on 28 October 2020 - 02:04 PM, said:

I think 8v8 would cause a lot of problems, as others have mentioned.

Now what would be interesting is 4v4 using the Solaris maps, and perhaps dropdeck respawns too.

Liao Jungle and Boreal would be brutal with 8 'Mechs, it'd be over far too quickly.

[Darian DelFord]

martian, on 28 October 2020 - 02:57 AM, said:

Hopefully never.


Do you account for the erosion of the MWO playerbase unwilling to play in this new format?

Hate to break it to you, but its not a new game mode, and quite frankly the game play has gone down hill since they went to 12v12, what you are also not figuring in, especially from a light perspective is the amount of additional friendly fire that increased.

SirSmokes, on 28 October 2020 - 06:21 AM, said:

I played this game before there were 12 v 12 and most of the problems people think having 8v8 would cause were just not there. That being said that was when the player population was higher so it might not work as well as it did back then.

Probably the best point in this whole thread, but honestly 8v8 > 12v12

SirSmokes, on 28 October 2020 - 06:26 AM, said:

Yea but your forgetting mech die A LOT faster in 12 if fire is focused so it A LOT easy to lose mech quickly if enemy team is on it's game snowballing still just as bad. Time to kill is slower in 8v8

True, again for a variety of reasons. Snow balling really was not as bad with 8v8 vs 12v12

martian, on 28 October 2020 - 07:09 AM, said:

But in QP 12v12 one can step in and compensate for weak players or for those who died too quickly. I think that in QP 8v8 it is more difficult.

Honestly not really a good argument. Its proportionate.

Celthora, on 28 October 2020 - 10:32 AM, said:

You need an average iq to realize this games competition is broken since it switched to 12v12. This game was 8v8 when it was doing its best times. [Redacted]

Again true. If 12v12 wants to stay and I am for it, it needs to be in FP.

QP needs to go back to 8v8, and before some moron throws out that groups will ruin it not really. We have groups now. In 8v8 Just limit the number to 2 people. We had this as well initially and it was not near the problem people scream it is.

[Stonefalcon]

The discussion amongst the comp players is to bring back 8v8, but separate the groups from solo queue and give solo players an op in to search in group queue. This way only solo players that actually want to play in group will do so. So to all you people whinging about teams need not do so, cause we groups don't even want to play with people who Nascar for no reason nor listen to calls that would actually help you win matches.

Suffice to say, the feeling is mutual.

[Tarl Cabot]

Celthora, on 28 October 2020 - 10:32 AM, said:

You need an average iq to realize this games competition is broken since it switched to 12v12. This game was 8v8 when it was doing its best times. [Redacted]

8vs8 we had no Clan mechs and a ton fewer IS mechs. No in-game VOIP and with the queue as it is now, that was the main advantage of groups due to use of an external VOIP. For myself, 8v8 was sad because if even one of your assault pilots sucked hairy balls, afk/dc, etc. usually resorting in a loss, which then instead of piloting a med/light had me playing assaults or heavies more. I enjoyed my Highlanders and the pre-nerfed JJ (JJ were a tad too much, primarily due to HOW PGI had initially setup JJ then butchering overall JJ revolved around Highlander/Victors were serious overkills). 12vs12 freed things up, and imho made games more fluid, and an assault loss was no longer as critical as it had been during 8v8.

Just some history.

12v12 1st public test in July 2013. https://mwomercs.com...w-11th-of-july/

12v12 went Live 8-16-2013 - https://mwomercs.com...gust-6th-12v12-

Clans did not start rolling out til June 2014 for pre-orders, CW/FP til Dec 2014, and an actual integrated in-game VOIP mid-Feb 2015.

[Chillidoge]

Damn another volley of replies. Nice.

Nightbird, on 28 October 2020 - 06:54 AM, said:

Yes, let's move to 8v8 because it is more punishing for players as the Match Maker gets far worse when number of players go down. This will allow us to close MWO earlier.

Salty. What do you think could be done to fix the issues I brought up that surround 12v12?

martian, on 28 October 2020 - 07:09 AM, said:

But in QP 12v12 one can step in and compensate for weak players or for those who died too quickly. I think that in QP 8v8 it is more difficult.

Agreed on this point. Unfortunately, there isn't a way around this problem, as I brought up in my last reply I think it can be managed, especially the crash on drop - that's squarely on the dev. New players are gonna be new, we should all have a lot of respect for them trying this game out, so taking an L every so often shouldn't be that big of a deal if you help them learn.

PeppaPig, on 28 October 2020 - 07:03 AM, said:

As a Legendary Founder, this post smacks of a name change and trolling with only 7 posts listed. Find your bridge, crawl back under it and don't come out until you have an idea that support and encourages the whole of the community. You have seen the decline in the game; why are you trying to hasten it?

I'll be honest mate, the only troll here appears to be you.

Even the people who strongly disagreed with me provided some explanation as to why they felt that way. Either be constructive, or take it somewhere else.

I don't agree with 8v8 being the harbinger of the game's death. I think the opposite - hence my post. People are free to disagree with that position, but I remember when it was 8v8 only, and within the last 12 months there was a brief stint where you could be subbed into 8v8 group matches but it was switched off within a week with no explanation.

I have made several suggestions on how we can have a compromise that suits both 12v12 fans and 8v8 fans, as have several others. Your post offers little that could be described as meaningful discourse.

PeppaPig, on 28 October 2020 - 07:03 AM, said:

[color=#959595]What is needed now is a substantial drive to get more people involved in the game as a whole.[/color]

I agree with you on this point, so what have you done to remedy this problem lately?

Acolyte of the Chin, on 28 October 2020 - 07:33 AM, said:

It'd be nice if PGI were to give group 8v8 a go.

I don't think it'd matter much for quickplay or make sense if group were still up to four people.

As much as people have been buzzing lately, we have yet to hear or see PGI doing anything other than perhaps put feelers out and ask us how they could get us to spend money on a game they stopped developing.

Sums up my thoughts pretty nicely. As long as we can still team up with up to four of our friends and queue for something, I think it will be fine. This game has been in decline for years for that reason alone - sync dropping is a ridiculous and unacceptable workaround when you are trying to play with your friends and teach them what to do, because let's be real, this game is not kind to greenhorn players.

Thanks again to everyone who commented. I'll reply to page 2 a bit later tonight as I want to get in a few matches before dinner. If you want to team up, you know what to do.

[LordNothing]

8v8 is inevitable. it comes with good and bad points. but its going to need to be employed if we start seeing dead band times where no games occur. players will leave in droves if that ever happens and pgi does nothing.

best solution i can think of is dynamic match size. 12v12 is still possible on peak hours, and off peak can get games without absurd wait times. we don't need it just yet so they can take their time rather than rush it in at the last minute.

[martian]

Darian DelFord, on 28 October 2020 - 05:19 PM, said:

Hate to break it to you, but its not a new game mode, and quite frankly the game play has gone down hill since they went to 12v12

The last time when the majority of solo casual players played 8v8 was about seven years ago.

Yes, I remember some people complaining that the gameplay went down. It was from the greatest part because those original small maps such as the original Forest Colony, the original small River City or the original Frozen City were designed with 8v8 in mind. With 12v12, suddenly those maps were crowded and the gameplay suffered because of that.

Once PGI added new larger maps and enlarged and modified those original maps, this problem has been solved.

Darian DelFord, on 28 October 2020 - 05:19 PM, said:

what you are also not figuring in, especially from a light perspective is the amount of additional friendly fire that increased.

I have never had a problem with friendly fire when using light 'Mechs. Occassionally it happens, sure, but friendly fire can happen when using medium, heavy or assault 'Mechs as well.

Darian DelFord, on 28 October 2020 - 05:19 PM, said:

Honestly not really a good argument. Its proportionate.

It is a good argument: When one player discoes, is AFK, accidentally commits suicide when he gets out of bounds when leaving the drop zone,etc., in 12v12, you lose ¹/₁₂ of the team. In 8v8 you lose ¹/₈ of the team.

Thus, in 12v12 the team loss is smaller. The same is true for combat losses. Blame maths, not me.

[Fae Puka]

I agree with you on this point, so what have you done to remedy this problem lately?



Trying looking at my posts over the last 5 years (not much posted before then), multiple suggestions and corroboration of other people's suggestions when Paul opened up the forum to suggestions. Plenty of simple functions or adaptations to existing functionality that as an industrial programmer, I know would take little in the way of time or effort to implement; suggestions on how to improve cash flow with minimal impact on existing players and in a way that would not be unattractive to newer ones . .

So it appears, I've been doing a load more than you have with your sub 10 posts as a Legendary . . .

[Nightbird]

Chillidoge, on 28 October 2020 - 07:13 PM, said:

Salty. What do you think could be done to fix the issues I brought up that surround 12v12?

https://www.google.c...te:mwomercs.com

[Chillidoge]

Nightbird, on 29 October 2020 - 07:48 AM, said:

https://www.google.c...te:mwomercs.com

I appreciate you making posts on the forum, however ask yourself this - is revamping overheating, a process that would likely require significant developer time and money to implement as effective as just reducing player count to produce more matches, easier matchmaking and a better psychological experience?

Also, your first Google result is you saying you're going to quit and play Halo.

RRAMIREZ, on 28 October 2020 - 08:01 AM, said:

It's really different from what OP proposed.
It's closer to what was discussed in
https://mwomercs.com...to-improve-mwo/
(8v8 group Q with solo opt-in in addition to soloQ)

This sounds like an awesome compromise. I don't see why we can't have this happen in the near future. LordNothing also makes a good point about this; if new players can't get a match (in addition to all the other things that will drive them away) they are just going to uninstall and not come back. I did the same with Quake Champions, so I can tell you that getting matches is critical to having people come, play and stay.

I was talking with my brother about this thread and the game in general, something that I think goes unmentioned is how psychological this game is. I can't think of another game that has a "fear" aspect to it, as in, you get smashed in the face with RAC2s and back off because you are now blind and can't see where they're coming from or you see missiles coming at you from over the hill and you've got no cover nearby.

Another example is the effect having 12 players on a team has on you psychologically. It makes it far easier to pass off responsibility to other players mentally, whether you are aware it is occurring or not. The best example I can think of this is where Lockheed_ mentions a single player making a loss a guarantee because they tried a new build or weight class, were a "potato" or disconnected because the game is unstable sometimes.

From a new player perspective, it's difficult to factor in any personal responsibility if there are 11 other people all doing their own thing (because you haven't yet learned the teamplay element). How are you meant to glean any information about a play if there are so many things to focus on, just on your team let alone the enemy team? This is what I mean by the psychological aspect of the game. Having 12v12 exacerbates this problem, 8v8 reduces it.

Another reason 8v8 makes gameplay better is it makes fringe mech builds like LRM-only or a stealth mech with a single large laser far less useful. Neither of these examples of builds contribute much to 12v12 in a real sense; the LRM boat can be pushed over the second something walks into minimum range and the sniper build sits in relative safety until the rest of its team is dead, and is then chased around the map for two or three minutes until it eventually dies.

I'm not saying the players who use these builds are bad necessarily, but I am using these two example builds to point out that for new players, these types of play styles actively harm their experience by not taking full responsibility for their actions, and passing on that responsibility to "the team". 8v8, like I said at the beginning, places more weight on your individual loadout choices and actions, and favours brawling, which as a new player is probably the thing you're going to end up doing either by accident or because they haven't yet learned to stay back and wait for combat to begin.

In closing, despite our disagreements it's clear that one way or another we all want the game to continue to exist and want the game to succeed. Without us discussing and debating the pros and cons of ideas, the developers will never know what we want, so we should be invested in talking about things like reverting to 8v8 or a new player referral program in good faith.

Thanks to everyone who commented, let's see if anything comes of this, fingers crossed. I think I made some good points as did others and I hope it was an enjoyable read for everyone regardless.

o7

[Nightbird]

Chillidoge, on 29 October 2020 - 08:41 AM, said:

I appreciate you making posts on the forum, however ask yourself this - is revamping overheating, a process that would likely require significant developer time and money to implement as effective as just reducing player count to produce more matches, easier matchmaking and a better psychological experience?

https://www.google.c...%3Amwomercs.com