261 replies to this topic

[Alreech]

Tarteso, on 18 November 2020 - 11:39 AM, said:

I would add the complete removal of ghost heat. If the mech can manage the heat produced by 6ERLL alpha, why should it be limited further??? I have never understand the true logic of this "feature" beyond the nerfing (PGI rules of balance) of some mechs and, prominently, the whole assault class, which is supposed to be powerful. Such big alphas cannot be repeated round by round without extra time for cooldawn or consumables, anyway.

Alpha Damage must be limited to make light & medium Mechs viable.
It doesn't matter if you can't fire 6 ER-LL continious if the first Alpha kills a side torso of a 50 ton Mech.

PGI didn't limited Alpha damage first because most players disliked the way Microsoft limited big weapons in MW4.
And after it became a problem PGI did the worst kind of limiting: indirect.

Most kinds of indirect limiting / balancing don't work and create more problems than they solve.
Ghost Heat is a good example because you can still put out high alphas with weapon combos (next nerf: ghost heat for PPCs/Gauss) and PGI quirked up Structure & Armor for smaller Mechs.

Getting rid of Ghost Heat would afford some over kind of limit, like Weapon Size.
And that most players won't accept.

[Tarteso]

Alreech, on 19 November 2020 - 09:19 AM, said:

Alpha Damage must be limited to make light & medium Mechs viable. It doesn't matter if you can't fire 6 ER-LL continious if the first Alpha kills a side torso of a 50 ton Mech.

This is exactly my point: capable mechs must be capable of deliver all their firepower as long as they can manage the heat spike, and lighter (and usually less capable) mechs must fear huge alphas. Artificial limitations like this have contributed IMO to reach the current situation in which an assault can be challenged by several light and medium chassis and configs, in 1vs1 with good chances of win. It is like fighting tanks using cars because they know that tanks cannot use their cannon too much, so they have more chances to kill them first. Sure, ghost heat is not the only player here, but it has a huge impact in the performance of most mechs. Inversely, some lighter mechs are capable to mount a lot of lasers, Nova for example. Without ghost heat they could fire a full alpha if they need to, but much less frecuently or at the cost of fire less weapons in the next rounds. I can´t see the problem here either.

Besides, lights and mediums are viable and fun mechs, it is just that they shouldn´t be viable to face any more powerfull (theorically) mechs 1vs1 so easy, as it is right now.

[Alreech]

Tarteso, on 19 November 2020 - 10:36 AM, said:

This is exactly my point: capable mechs must be capable of deliver all their firepower as long as they can manage the heat spike, and lighter (and usually less capable) mechs must fear huge alphas. Artificial limitations like this have contributed IMO to reach the current situation in which an assault can be challenged by several light and medium chassis and configs, in 1vs1 with good chances of win. It is like fighting tanks using cars because they know that tanks cannot use their cannon too much, so they have more chances to kill them first. Sure, ghost heat is not the only player here, but it has a huge impact in the performance of most mechs.

Light Mechs haven been buffed with structure & armor quirk because Ghost Heat didn't work, that's the reason why they can even survive crossfire from multiple mechs.
Especially if the survival skill tree is maxed out.

Quote

Inversely, some lighter mechs are capable to mount a lot of lasers, Nova for example. Without ghost heat they could fire a full alpha if they need to, but much less frecuently or at the cost of fire less weapons in the next rounds. I can´t see the problem here either.

The Nova is a canon Mech from Battletech, unique because it can mount 12 medium lasers. Lore to the Nova says "a pilot that fires all 12 lasers risks immidiate shut down".
But the Nova hasn't the best hit boxes & weapon placements, and that hurts the Nova more than Ghost Heat.

Same goes for the Super Nova, a canon Mech famous because it's the only Mech with 6 ER-Large Laser. Thats not unique in MWO, because you can mount 6 ER-Large Lasers also in the Stalker & Battlemaster. And both mechs have better hardpoint placements for those weapons.

Not each Mech with enough tonnage must be capable of mounting 6 ER-Large Lasers.
A few unique ones? o.k, why not. Especially if they have bad hit boxes or other disadvantages.
If every Assault Mech with 6 Energy Hardpoints is able to put out a 54 DMG Alpha it's becomming a problem.
Ghost Heat is the wrong fix to that, limiting the number of Large Energy Weapons a certain Mech class can carry is one nobody want's.

Quote

Besides, lights and mediums are viable and fun mechs, it is just that they shouldn´t be viable to face any more powerfull (theorically) mechs 1vs1 so easy, as it is right now.

Light Mechs must be able to face and kill more powerfull mechs because they don't have any other role in MWO now.
They can't be used as scouts because all game modes are basically death match.
They can't use as cheap expendable Mechs for risky missions because you can't respawn.

So they need the high structure & armor quirks to survive the high alphas most Mech can fire despite Ghost Heat.

[Seth Kalasa]

Link to two ideas about skill tree Revamp in the first topic (Monday Update #2):
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6358610

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6358349

[Galahad2030]

Someone mentioned this missing feature in another forum post/thread.

Zoomed icons for badges and faction icons on the battle lobby. Mouse over an icon and it shows an enlarged high quality photo so you can admire the badge/icon.

[dr3dnought]

• Skill Tree / Grind Reduction

ASAP


Remove the (absurd) c-bill cost for skill points. This makes it so that while you're skilling your new mech you're also saving up for your next mech+build.

Halve the XP cost to 400. This makes 91pts a much more reasonable grind.

Refund each player 45000 c-bills and 400GXP per node they have already unlocked. Hopefully this is not hard to do.

If a larger overhaul is possible, halve the number of nodes (with doubled values) and rearrange them from trees into radial 'spokes' (or something like akilius' mock-up below) so we can just take the nodes we want and none we don't.

• Remove Torso Heat Spike Mechanic

ASAP. The heat spike is far too punishing and makes no physical sense to boot.


As a low priority for future development, a much milder mobility/dissipation penalty should be applied to LFE and c-XL torso destruction, and a harsher penalty for IS-XL (ie side torso destruction isn't a death condition). This maintains a trade-off for the 3 IS and 2 clan engine types.

• Heat Management Values Not Representative of Heat Efficiency

Not a huge deal imo, but could definitely be improved. Make heat capacity and heat dissipation stats visible.

• Simplify Command Wheel

Very low priority atm.

• Remove Time of Day Change in Matches (FPS hit)

Yes, anything that improves FPS should be a priority. Just make night and day versions of the maps with ToD, randomly assigned after map voting.

• UI Performance Pass / Scaling?

High priority if if improves FPS, low priority if it doesn't

Edited by dr3dnought, 19 November 2020 - 09:13 PM.

[Bowelhacker]

Personally I kind of like the skill tree as it is, but the grind part is the problem. Which stems, I think, from the way XP is awarded. In QP too much of it is dependent on what the rest of your team does; you might find yourself with three kills and a decent performance, but if the rest of the team gets stomped you barely get any XP. There's no teamwork in QP, it's not really much more than a free for all anyway so it doesn't seem all that fair. So cut out that element and the grind might be a tad less grindy.

I don't think anyone plays faction for the XP...


PS: I love grind, but only when it's music.

[Tamerlin]

Skill Tree / Grind Reduction - Let's start with "The Grind". Competing games - World of Tanks, World of Warships and War Thunder - all have far more grind than MWO. The other games even require "experience" before you are allowed to buy a new vehicle. MWO only requires C-Bills. I see no reason to change that.

Players like flexibility, but that's really just another word for "complexity". The Skill Tree is a big example of this. The early change by PGI to not require any cost to re-enable a previously-enabled node was a good step. But unless a player has all 91 nodes already planned out, they must pay for more than 91 nodes as they decide what they actually want. That punishes new players.

If the Skill Tree stays, my recommendations:

• Once a player pays 91 nodes for a 'Mech chassis/variant all the nodes open up for free
  
• GSP should be in supply caches, not just events - reward the players who play the most
  
• Any 'Mech bought with MC (hero, champion) should have all the nodes open for free

If major Skill Tree changes are being considered, that deserves its own thread / discussion, separate from other issues.


Remove Torso Heat Spike Mechanic - When an XL or LFE equipped 'Mech loses its side torso their top speed is reduced by 20% and their heat capacity and dissipation is reduced by 40%. Thus, if you are running hot and suddenly lose a side torso, thus losing 40% of your heat capacity, you will overheat and shut down. There is no "heat spike", the issue is the in-game UI does not do a good job explaining what happened.

In BattleTech Table Top (BT-TT), every engine critical hit increase heat buildup by five points per turn. An LFE 'Mech would lose 3 Movement Points and gain 10 heat points per turn when losing a side torso. So MWO tracks pretty well with BT-TT. The main difference is shutting down due to heat - this is RNG in BT-TT, not automatic like in MWO.

So, I think some are suggesting that rather than sudden shut down at the loss of a side torso there could be "automatic override" that resets once heat gets within the new heat capacity values - which should include internal damage (just like player-set override). I don't think this is needed.

My recommendation: Do nothing, the current system works.

Heat Management Values Not Representative of Heat Efficiency - If this is a comment about how the MWO MechLab displays "Heat MGMT", then I agree. My 5xMPL Urbie K9 has a heat management of 1.23/2. WTH does that even mean?

My recommendation: Convert that to "Heat Efficiency" like MechDB (https://mech.nav-alpha.com/) uses, and also include "Heat Capacity" and "Heat Dissipation".

Simplify Command Wheel - The only thing I use the command wheel for is "mech spotted", so they stay on the map longer. Only 1-in-50 games do I see anyone use any other command.

What I'd like to see is the option to assign the commands to a keyboard shortcut. Rather than E-then-mouse I can just hit a function key.

Remove Time of Day Change in Matches (FPS hit) - Do this today. I don't mind the different times of days in games, but the accelerated time change is annoying.

UI Performance Pass / Scaling? - "UI Performance Pass" can mean many things. I'd like to see more color-blind options and be able to drag-and-drop the UI to where I want. But CryEngine may not have the capability for that.

Scaling is a bigger issue. I love how 'Mechs are scaled to their tonnage - some are wider but shorter, some are tall and skinny. Every 'Mech of the same tonnage has the same volume.

At least in theory. There seems to be a lot of odd scaling choices. The 35t Firestarter looks at least three-times the size of the 20t Locust. There are many other examples. The only scaling change I'd like to see is confirmation that the current scales are correct.

Edited by Tamerlin, 19 November 2020 - 08:45 PM.

[Akillius]

Only remove if 10+ Heat Sinks are installed! - Remove Torso Heat Spike Mechanic
Low priority. - Heat Management Values Not Representative of Heat Efficiency
Don't bother. - Simplify Command Wheel
NO! - Remove Time of Day Change in Matches (FPS hit)
Medium priority. - UI Performance Pass / Scaling?
Skill Tree / Grind Reduction (See Below)

Kept it simple to reduce time, costs and complexity for PGI's skill tree rebuild at bare minimum.
Basically just change existing database values, and change UI a little.

Spreadsheet linked contains the simple maths behind it, customized to avoid problems.
84 nodes can be unlock, but only 16 active nodes maximum.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14011i8S2Esfjm8ns3vIjapbMwcdT613nceqkrN5nQns/edit?usp=sharing

Only nodes with a 1, 2, 3 have the unlock-previous as requirements.
Most nodes can be unlocked, changed, or active at any time. (more notes in spreadsheet)
Here's 2 rough concept images of how it might look ingame: (Click to Enlarge)

Second attempt, easier to understand but looks different from existing.



First attempt, very rough but looks more familiar like existing (I prefer the image with rectangles)

[dr3dnought]

Akillius, on 19 November 2020 - 08:47 PM, said:

Skill Tree / Grind Reduction (See Below)

Kept it simple to reduce time, costs and complexity for PGI's skill tree rebuild at bare minimum.
Basically just change existing database values, and change UI a little.

Spreadsheet linked contains the simple maths behind it, customized to avoid problems.
84 nodes can be unlock, but only 16 active nodes maximum.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14011i8S2Esfjm8ns3vIjapbMwcdT613nceqkrN5nQns/edit?usp=sharing

Only nodes with a 1, 2, 3 have the unlock-previous as requirements.
Most nodes can be unlocked, changed, or active at any time. (more notes in spreadsheet)
Here's 2 rough concept images of how it might look ingame: (Click to Enlarge)

Second attempt, easier to understand but looks different from existing.



First attempt, very rough but looks more familiar like existing (I prefer the image with rectangles)

I like this layout (the hexagonal one with flow-lines is easier to understand imo). The main thing is it allows us to take only the nodes we want and none we don't. Good job.

[Kodan Black]

Please, please, please make shutdown override a player preference so I don't have to hit it at the start of each match. Honestly, it is a small change but would greatly enhance my experience and I think could be done quickly and easily. I'll PayPal ya $50 to do it. Not kidding.

[Fruguy]

• Skill Tree / Grind Reduction
  
  Make the skill tree more affordable. 5k per skill point, as newer players don't make a ton of cbills per match. Change it so that you can advance each type of node vertically along that same line. If you have 15 range nodes, make it so we can put as many SP into range nodes as we want and so forth for each type of node, not a trickle down where you have to unlock some heat gen reduction to get to another cooldown or range node.
  
• Remove Torso Heat Spike Mechanic
  
  Losing heat sinks should also remove the heat that a hs was storing.
  
• Heat Management Values Not Representative of Heat Efficiency
  
  Not sure
  
• Simplify Command Wheel
  
  What are commands?
  
• Remove Time of Day Change in Matches (FPS hit)
  
  Make it either day or night with whatever weather effects you want. Even in the novels, engagements were over in a matter of minutes.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Alreech, on 19 November 2020 - 09:19 AM, said:

Alpha Damage must be limited to make light & medium Mechs viable.
It doesn't matter if you can't fire 6 ER-LL continious if the first Alpha kills a side torso of a 50 ton Mech.

PGI didn't limited Alpha damage first because most players disliked the way Microsoft limited big weapons in MW4.
And after it became a problem PGI did the worst kind of limiting: indirect.

Most kinds of indirect limiting / balancing don't work and create more problems than they solve.
Ghost Heat is a good example because you can still put out high alphas with weapon combos (next nerf: ghost heat for PPCs/Gauss) and PGI quirked up Structure & Armor for smaller Mechs.

Getting rid of Ghost Heat would afford some over kind of limit, like Weapon Size.
And that most players won't accept.

In all other FPS a Headshot from a sniper kills you in one Shot ,a Shot from a Tank destroy you armed Buggy with on Shot ...here we have big TTKs .
The Problem , we not have combined Warfare ,and medium and Lights as Infantry/Tankhunter here useless and his role ,and not really Gamemodes like conquest without FP (kill all and win) to give a Role ,and many Elements from the Boardgame not in ...you less more a 3 T Structure one a Torsoside ,and will unstable or Crash...no falling,no ECM effects from PPCs, no Pilots Injurings with Effects (like battlefield 3 ) otherside the Scaling , 65t Cataplult smaller as a 50t,many Lights and medium for example many like Heavys, other Heavys tall like Assaults,and assault blowing up, thats he not can hit a Light of his toes, so many Mechs slower as here Counterparts in teh Boardgame ...evry here seeing an running Mech over the Light Class?only seeing a trippling Daishi

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 21 November 2020 - 12:40 AM.

[Alreech]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 21 November 2020 - 12:26 AM, said:

In all other FPS a Headshot from a sniper kills you in one Shot ,a Shot from a Tank destroy you armed Buggy with on Shot ...here we have big TTKs .

Games like Quake III or Unreal Tournament have that too. You don't need a team in those games, most players even prefer free for all deathmatch. Also you have unlimited respawns till the times up. Is that the gameplay a Mechwarrior Game should have?

Battlefield 3 / 4 / 5 reduced weapon damage to increase time to kill, forcing the players to use coordination & teamwork to bring done enemys quick.
And if you get one shotted by a Tank or Sniper you can respawn 30 sec later and your team lost only one of 300+ tickets.
That design works well with big, coordinated teams (>16 players per side) huge power difference (planes vs tanks vs infantery) and historic (World Wars, Modern Wars) "realistic" setting ("Headshoots should kill players" / "so many deaths, this is war").

"One shoot kills" don't fit to the Mechwarrior franchise or Mecha stuff at all. That's all about big stompy, die hard mechanical giants that you have to tear appart limb by limb to bring them down.
So a high TTK is expected for a Mech game.
The limited spawns in Faction Play and the limited tonnage of the drop decks work IMHO better for a Mechwarrior game than the game desing of Quake & Unreal or Battlefield.
With the limited respawns the loss of a ligh Mech isn't much of a problem, and the maps are big enough to make fast lighs & mediums as responders and even scouts usefull.

It's quickplay there light mechs are useless if not buffed by quirks and skill nodes to survive.
Adding Infantry & Tanks to Quickplay, fixing Mech sizes ect won't change that, it would make it even worse because now the big Mechs have to deal with even smaller targets.

Edited by Alreech, 21 November 2020 - 02:01 AM.

[Appuagab]

Daeron Katz, on 16 November 2020 - 01:10 PM, said:

In this thread, lets discuss ideas for updating or adding to our current monetization model in MechWarrior Online, such as:

• Skill Tree / Grind Reduction
  
• UI Performance Pass / Scaling?

These two please. Skill tree needs to be simplified. UI need a total overhaul. I can list issues with these two forever.
Lack of UI scaling making it awful on all resolutions except 1080p.
Quirks and skill bonuses not being separated in the list.
Chunks of wasted space while important stuff is being nested for no reason.
Armor/structure quirks contaminating skills/quirks list. Having mess of nonsensical abbreviations for each component is not informative in the slightest. They must be moved to small mech diagram with hardpoints. Or removed from mech stats tab entirely because all of it is already listed on loadout paperdoll.
Fake jump distance in stats instead of just jumpjets capacity (unnerf jumpjets btw).
Skill tree system being bloated with tons different currencies: C-bills (C-bill costs should be removed from skills), MC (for scammy xp conversion), XP, GXP, HXP, SP, GSP, HSP. Skill tree economy needs a total rework.
Skill tree bloated with nodes. I get it, you want good stuff to cost more, then make it cost more xp instead of more clicks AND more xp. Like mobility tree is basically a one 32 points worth node. MWO skill tree is like Killing Floor 2 perk tree but stretched across Path of Exile skill tree.
Having to apply 3 different filters to find cosmetics you want.

[James Wirth]

Akillius, on 19 November 2020 - 08:47 PM, said:

Only remove if 10+ Heat Sinks are installed! - Remove Torso Heat Spike Mechanic
Low priority. - Heat Management Values Not Representative of Heat Efficiency
Don't bother. - Simplify Command Wheel
NO! - Remove Time of Day Change in Matches (FPS hit)
Medium priority. - UI Performance Pass / Scaling?
Skill Tree / Grind Reduction (See Below)

Kept it simple to reduce time, costs and complexity for PGI's skill tree rebuild at bare minimum.
Basically just change existing database values, and change UI a little.

Spreadsheet linked contains the simple maths behind it, customized to avoid problems.
84 nodes can be unlock, but only 16 active nodes maximum.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14011i8S2Esfjm8ns3vIjapbMwcdT613nceqkrN5nQns/edit?usp=sharing

Only nodes with a 1, 2, 3 have the unlock-previous as requirements.
Most nodes can be unlocked, changed, or active at any time. (more notes in spreadsheet)
Here's 2 rough concept images of how it might look ingame: (Click to Enlarge)

Second attempt, easier to understand but looks different from existing.



First attempt, very rough but looks more familiar like existing (I prefer the image with rectangles)

These skill node layouts are excellent. PGI should have hired you to do them instead of imposing the multiple "blue walls" of nodes we ended up with, which as it happened, was the last straw for my old unit mates when this was released. Most had over a hundred fully mastered mechs on their accounts, and when they saw those new Blue Walls of skills and realized they would have to assign 91 nodes to each of those mechs, they said NOPE! and left the game.

[Disagreeable Unconstructiveness]

I think you first have to fix some nice IS mechs that die like insects on a windshield. Huge hit boxes on the Fafnir for example make them almost useless unless with ecm and gauss snipering. And mode down some damned Clan light over weaponized like the damned pirana. Die clan scum, die!

[Brauer]

Alreech, on 19 November 2020 - 09:19 AM, said:

Alpha Damage must be limited to make light & medium Mechs viable.
It doesn't matter if you can't fire 6 ER-LL continious if the first Alpha kills a side torso of a 50 ton Mech.

Some of the absolute best mechs in the game are lights and mediums. Lights and mediums are quite viable in all game modes.

I can't think of a single commonly taken or viable mech that can alpha six erll on either clan side or IS. If there is such a mech it's not doing it continuously. Also, an erll boat shouldn't easily prune off a fresh side torso because torso twisting exists.

Your argument seems to be based off a misunderstanding of the game at the very least, and perhaps poor experiences due to letting people just tee off on you at will. In the latter case the weapon system isn't going to matter much if you don't twist, anything will wreck you.

Disagreeable Unconstructiveness, on 21 November 2020 - 06:03 AM, said:

I think you first have to fix some nice IS mechs that die like insects on a windshield. Huge hit boxes on the Fafnir for example make them almost useless unless with ecm and gauss snipering. And mode down some damned Clan light over weaponized like the damned pirana. Die clan scum, die!

Not sure how you'd fix the fafnir without throwing out the entire original design that it is based on. It's basically just a series of easy to isolate hitboxes to begin with, I don't see how PGI fixes that. It does provide one of the absolute best LRM boats in the game, but that's about it.

[evil kerensky]

dr3dnought, on 19 November 2020 - 03:18 PM, said:

• Skill Tree / Grind Reduction

ASAP


Remove the (absurd) c-bill cost for skill points. This makes it so that while you're skilling your new mech you're also saving up for your next mech+build.

Halve the XP cost to 400. This makes 91pts a much more reasonable grind.

this. itll help with monetization as well. you arent going to be considering buying mc for mechbays if your still skilling a mech out, and mc mechbays are probably the one thing everyone buys in this game.

on an unrelated note:
my idea for a skill tree. its super simple.

you have 4 "trees" for each mech: weapons tree, survivability tree, mobility tree, and an equipment tree.

each tree acts as 1 unlockable node, so you save up and when you got enough xp you get the entire tree in 1 unlock. you can only have 3 of the 4 trees unlocked at a time, and having 3 trees opens 1 additional consumable slot.

mobility, survival and firepower unlock everything already in that tree rn.
equipment will have operations, sensor, and jumpjet trees rolled into 1 tree with the exception of seismic sensor, radar derp, and cap assist

cap assist you roll into light and mediums base stats, with lights getting the full bonus, and mediums getting half of the bonus. seismic sensor automatically gets unlocked after you unlock your second tree. radar derp automatically unlocks with the third tree., and you also get an additional consumable with the third tree.

you can change skill values for each tree on a weight class basis, so lights wont get the same percent bonus to survival as an assault from the skill tree. balance these differences as needed.

[Alreech]

Brauer, on 21 November 2020 - 06:33 AM, said:

Some of the absolute best mechs in the game are lights and mediums. Lights and mediums are quite viable in all game modes.

Because they got structure & armor quirks they can buff with skill nodes and can use torso twisting. And they are fast and small.

That makes them viable as Mech killers especially if you the use of the R key to find damaged enemys to kill or maim.
So they have the same role as any other Mech in the game.

They can't serve a expendable scout because you don't have respawns and all the matches are fight at the same grids on most maps.
They can't serve as cappers because going capping reduce your teams strengh.

Quote

I can't think of a single commonly taken or viable mech that can alpha six erll on either clan side or IS. If there is such a mech it's not doing it continuously. Also, an erll boat shouldn't easily prune off a fresh side torso because torso twisting exists.

Your argument seems to be based off a misunderstanding of the game at the very least, and perhaps poor experiences due to letting people just tee off on you at will. In the latter case the weapon system isn't going to matter much if you don't twist, anything will wreck you.

I answerd to a guy that want's to remove Ghost Heat so that Mechs capable to mount 6 ER-Large Lasers can shoot them and didn't understand why PGI introduced it.

IMHO indirect limiting like Ghost Heat (Yes, you can replace 6 Medium Lasers with Large, but you just generate much more heat than expected) don't work, and because it don't work PGI quirked up a lot of Mechs to make the viable, creating new problems like hard to kill light Mechs.

Edited by Alreech, 21 November 2020 - 07:42 AM.