89 replies to this topic

[Zaver11]

Legitimately curious. I watched all the progress I made over 3+ years wiped out in a handful of weeks, and no matter what I do, my rank keeps going down. There's no teamplay anymore. Because damage farming is the entire point of the new ranking system. It doesn't matter how much I spot, how much I direct the LRM carriers onto targets. How much I assist with. Unless I've managed to score 500+ damage, even if we win, my rank goes down.

My last match, I died 1 minute in due to a stealthed flea back shooting me because my entire team left me to die because they were more interested in NASCARing their way into the enemies as though melee attacks were actually a thing in this game. And this is 90% of the matches I'm in now. No coordination. No attempts to even talk. Half the time I'm getting backshot by guys who are so over eager to fight because "gotta get that damage! Gotta farm those points!" Everyone is out for themselves, no one communicates, and this game has become less about fun, and more about "how many times can my face get smashed into a fraking wall before I find the magical match where the enemy doesn't immediately murder-ball everything."

What's the point? This isn't fun any more, and it feels like failure is the only option.

Edited by Zaver11, 13 December 2020 - 06:08 AM.

[martian]

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 06:05 AM, said:

Legitimately curious. I watched all the progress I made over 3+ years wiped out in a handful of weeks, and no matter what I do, my rank keeps going down.

Your progress was just an experience bar

You skill was not too important and it was practically impossible to move down.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 06:05 AM, said:

There's no teamplay anymore. Because damage farming is the entire point of the new ranking system. It doesn't matter how much I spot, how much I direct the LRM carriers onto targets.

Honestly, instead of spotting, it would be better if you used that opportunity to actually damage or destroy the enemy. As for those LRM carriers, they can fire their LRMs without your advices.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 06:05 AM, said:

How much I assist with. Unless I've managed to score 500+ damage, even if we win, my rank goes down.

That's because you are competing not only with your team mates, but with the best enemy players.

No more automatic PSR rise just because you were on the winning side.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 06:05 AM, said:

My last match, I died 1 minute in due to a stealthed flea back shooting me because my entire team left me to die because they were more interested in NASCARing their way into the enemies as though melee attacks were actually a thing in this game.

What 'Mech were you in?

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 06:05 AM, said:

And this is 90% of the matches I'm in now. No coordination. No attempts to even talk. Half the time I'm getting backshot by guys who are so over eager to fight because "gotta get that damage! Gotta farm those points!" Everyone is out for themselves, no one communicates, and this game has become less about fun, and more about "how many times can my face get smashed into a fraking wall before I find the magical match where the enemy doesn't immediately murder-ball everything."

What's the point? This isn't fun any more, and it feels like failure is the only option.

MWO Quick Play has always worked this way. That's nothing new.

[John Bronco]

Yeah, murderball was been winning in qp for 9 years. Just stick with your team and be shooting as much as possible, and you'll go up (or don't - not like it matters).

[Zaver11]

martian, on 13 December 2020 - 06:44 AM, said:

Honestly, instead of spotting, it would be better if you used that opportunity to actually damage or destroy the enemy. As for those LRM carriers, they can fire their LRMs without your advices.

I *do*. I spot and fire. But assisting is worthless. NARCs might as well no longer exist for all the good they do me, point wise. I've never once managed to get a rank up as a stealth raven. Because, again, it doesn't matter how much I help out with the guidance, I'm not the one doing the damage. Heck, from what you are telling me, doing this is *actively counterproductive* to me, since it means that my team is now going to be doing better, which means, comparatively, I'm doing worse. I guess I might as well toss it in the rubbish bin and free up a mech bay in that case.

Quote

That's because you are competing not only with your team mates, but with the best enemy players.

No more automatic PSR rise just because you were on the winning side.

No matter how much I contributed to that victory through means that didn't involve "melt other team's face off?" What a joke. I mean, I've often quipped that far too many people in this game act like Clanners. But I wasn't aware that Jade Falcon had suddenly taken control of the ranking system.

Quote

What 'Mech were you in?

Ebon Jaguar. I was doing 81 KPH, and trying to keep the flea off the assaults, because the light mechs and mediums that are actually agile enough to keep up with the things had NASCARed off and/or begun the classic "rotate as hard as you can, and don't stop for anything! To hades with anyone who cannot do more than 105 KPH!" This rather naturally, ignores the big problem with the Flea: most assaults literally cannot depress their weapon mounts enough to deal with them if they get in close, and any Flea pilot actually worthy of the title is going to easily keep out of the firing arcs, if they can even spot the thing, because I can't remember the last time I saw someone run a counter ECM.... Thus, I was forced to try to deal with it, but it danced circles around me, naturally, because I'm a laser vomit/sniper build not meant for this sort of thing, *but am the only one actually paying attention to the fact that the assaults are being torn up by this thing*. A half dozen calls for help were ignored, and you get three guesses how it ended.

And that is 90% of my matches.

Quote

MWO Quick Play has always worked this way. That's nothing new.

Back when I was Tier 2, before this change happened, people talked. There were genuine attempts to communicate on comms. There were people that took control of lances and companies and actually issued orders. These days, if I call out or request something as simple as "what is our plan, are we going X, Y, Z?" I'm lucky if I get a response beyond "don't die", and no matter how many times people say "How about we don't nascar this time?" inevitably, a bunch of kill hungry idiots rush off, spread us out, and we get butchered.

It's not fun anymore. All it is is frustrating, humiliating, and makes me regret every dollar I ever gave the devs.

[martian]

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 08:21 AM, said:

I *do*. I spot and fire.

Good.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 08:21 AM, said:

But assisting is worthless.

Getting kill assists is actually useful. Not magnificent, but nice to have.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 08:21 AM, said:

NARCs might as well no longer exist for all the good they do me, point wise.

In Quick Play, NARC Beacon is usually a wasted tonnage. You can never know how many LRM boats (and with what pilots) - if any at all - your team will have and on what map you will deploy.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 08:21 AM, said:

I've never once managed to get a rank up as a stealth raven.

Well, Raven is an average 'Mech. Not especially great, but there are worse ones.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 08:21 AM, said:

Because, again, it doesn't matter how much I help out with the guidance, I'm not the one doing the damage.

If I may suggest something, do not bother with a "guidance". Guiding PUGs is like herding cats.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 08:21 AM, said:

Heck, from what you are telling me, doing this is *actively counterproductive* to me, since it means that my team is now going to be doing better, which means, comparatively, I'm doing worse. I guess I might as well toss it in the rubbish bin and free up a mech bay in that case.

Yes and no.

Yes, your team mates are competing with you, BUT it is in your interest that your team as a whole wins the game because:
1. you will get the victory bonus that improves your C-Bills earnings.
2. you will have more time to damage and kill enemy 'Mechs and do all those things that improve your Match Score and thus your PSR. However, you must be active and use your weapons as frequently as you can. If your losing team is wiped out in three minutes, you typically do not have many opportunities to improve your MS.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 08:21 AM, said:

No matter how much I contributed to that victory through means that didn't involve "melt other team's face off?" What a joke. I mean, I've often quipped that far too many people in this game act like Clanners. But I wasn't aware that Jade Falcon had suddenly taken control of the ranking system.

The best way how you can help your team is by killing enemy 'Mechs. Dead enemy 'Mech can't use its weapons, it can't spot, it can't drop arty on your team, it can't cap.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 08:21 AM, said:

Ebon Jaguar. I was doing 81 KPH, and trying to keep the flea off the assaults, because the light mechs and mediums that are actually agile enough to keep up with the things had NASCARed off and/or begun the classic "rotate as hard as you can, and don't stop for anything! To hades with anyone who cannot do more than 105 KPH!" This rather naturally, ignores the big problem with the Flea: most assaults literally cannot depress their weapon mounts enough to deal with them if they get in close, and any Flea pilot actually worthy of the title is going to easily keep out of the firing arcs, if they can even spot the thing, because I can't remember the last time I saw someone run a counter ECM.... Thus, I was forced to try to deal with it, but it danced circles around me, naturally, because I'm a laser vomit/sniper build not meant for this sort of thing, *but am the only one actually paying attention to the fact that the assaults are being torn up by this thing*. A half dozen calls for help were ignored, and you get three guesses how it ended.

And that is 90% of my matches.

Well, I do not know what weapons you have on your Cauldron-Born, so I can not say how effective your 'Mech is when dealing with enemy light 'Mechs.

I use pulse lasers on my Cauldron-Born, so usually I do not have such problem. Enemy lights do not like pulse lasers.

If I might suggest something, target their legs.

Plus, instead of following your lights and fast mediums, stay with your Assaults and double on targets with them.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 08:21 AM, said:

Back when I was Tier 2, before this change happened, people talked. There were genuine attempts to communicate on comms. There were people that took control of lances and companies and actually issued orders. These days, if I call out or request something as simple as "what is our plan, are we going X, Y, Z?" I'm lucky if I get a response beyond "don't die", and no matter how many times people say "How about we don't nascar this time?" inevitably, a bunch of kill hungry idiots rush off, spread us out, and we get butchered.

It's not that simple. Some people do not understand English, some people play with comms disabled, some people do not own a headset. And of course, many groups, that are now present in the Solo Queue, are on their own Teamspeak, doing their own thing, so they are not interested in communicating with PUGs.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 08:21 AM, said:

It's not fun anymore. All it is is frustrating, humiliating, and makes me regret every dollar I ever gave the devs.

You should inform Russ Bullock on Twitter.

[John Bronco]

If you're getting isolated in an ebon jag you need to work on reading the minimap better - it's nobody's fault but your own.

And yeah, the system rewards fighting, so just fight. That is the game after all.

[Zaver11]

martian, on 13 December 2020 - 08:54 AM, said:

Well, I do not know what weapons you have on your Cauldron-Born, so I can not say how effective your 'Mech is when dealing with enemy light 'Mechs.

I use pulse lasers on my Cauldron-Born, so usually I do not have such problem. Enemy lights do not like pulse lasers.

2 ER large lasers, shoulder mounted to be able to fire over a hill with minimal exposure, 2 ER mediums on the torso so I have backup if all else fails, 4 MPLs on the arms for dealing with rapid movers or closer in threats. Rest is heat sinks.

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If I might suggest something, target their legs.

Yes. That's what I do. But it's hard on a Flea without a tracking weapon, due to the whole 150+ KPH,. MASC, Stealth, and oh, by the way, I'm slamming up against your legs so you can't actually see when you try to blindfire target me due to how short I am, because in this game, you can't actually do what you could do in any other game, which is punt me like a football in a manner that sends me tumbling butt over teakettle and ends with me wiggling my legs in the air helplessly."

Quote

Plus, instead of following your lights and fast mediums, stay with your Assaults and double on targets with them.

Normally, I try to stick with the group. But I'm the only one that seems to remember "assaults are vulnerable to light mech pilots that actually know what the frak they're doing, and thus need an agile close-in escort."

BlaizerP, on 13 December 2020 - 08:55 AM, said:

If you're getting isolated in an ebon jag you need to work on reading the minimap better - it's nobody's fault but your own.

And yeah, the system rewards fighting, so just fight. That is the game after all.

I wasn't Isolated. I was with 4 assaults. The problem was that the lights/medium's had all left to do their own thing, which left the assaults, you guessed it, vulnerable to "surprise stealth light mech attack because," and left the heavy mech trying desperately to fend this thing that is faster than it, stealthed, and as pointed out *physically capable of slamming itself up against my heavy without consequences because I can't just step on this blasted thing like I should be able to." And calls for assistance were utterly ignored.

Edited by Zaver11, 13 December 2020 - 09:25 AM.

[martian]

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 09:10 AM, said:

2 ER large lasers, shoulder mounted to be able to fire over a hill with minimal exposure, 2 ER mediums on the torso so I have backup if all else fails, 4 MPLs on the arms for dealing with rapid movers or closer in threats. Rest is heat sinks.

Yeah, some people use ER Larges, but I do not like the long burn time.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 09:10 AM, said:

Yes. That's what I do. But it's hard on a Flea without a tracking weapon, due to the whole 150+ KPH,. MASC, Stealth, and oh, by the way, I'm slamming up against your legs so you can't actually see when you try to blindfire target me due to how short I am, because in this game, you can't actually do what you could do in any other game, which is punt me like a football in a manner that sends me tumbling butt over teakettle and ends with me wiggling my legs in the air helplessly."

That's the moment when other friendly 'Mechs should help you. By the way, you can unlock your arms.

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 09:10 AM, said:

Normally, I try to stick with the group. But I'm the only one that seems to remember "assaults are vulnerable to light mech pilots that actually know what the frak they're doing, and thus need an agile close-in escort."

Still, I would say that it's the best tactics. You can't keep the pace with lights and fast mediums, so sticking with the Assaults means that might gain some time to farm some damage on enemy 'Mechs to keep your PSR even.

[Zaver11]

martian, on 13 December 2020 - 09:22 AM, said:

That's the moment when other friendly 'Mechs should help you. By the way, you can unlock your arms.

Yep. I use that. But you hit the nail on the head. I can't get help. No one helps anyone. And I can't get back up to the ranks where people *did* do stuff like that, because I have to hope, magically, that the following have happened:

1. I get the right map for the mech I'm using.
2. I don't get backshot by some over-eager idiot on my own team, so desperate to get to the enemy that they don't watch who is around them when firing.
3. That it isn't "rotato-potatoe o'clock."

...And then I lose once and the last three victories are erased and then some.

Quote

Still, I would say that it's the best tactics. You can't keep the pace with lights and fast mediums, so sticking with the Assaults means that might gain some time to farm some damage on enemy 'Mechs to keep your PSR even.

I'm not saying it's a bad tactic. It's what I normally do. The problem is it's dependent on your teammates not being brain dead morons.

I'm just wondering why to bother. This game doesn't have a monopoly on this genre. I like it. But I feel like there's no strategy to it, and no way to advance beyond "whose the best at face melting. Brawls for days. Everyone else can get stuffed!" There's no reward for actually being a supporter that helps everyone else do better. I'm tired of doing *everything right* and getting punished for it.

Edited by Zaver11, 13 December 2020 - 09:40 AM.

[martian]

Zaver11, on 13 December 2020 - 09:35 AM, said:

I'm not saying it's a bad tactic. It's what I normally do. The problem is it's dependent on your teammates not being brain dead morons.

I'm just wondering why to bother. This game doesn't have a monopoly on this genre. I like it. But I feel like there's no strategy to it, and no way to advance beyond "whose the best at face melting. Brawls for days. Everyone else can get stuffed!" There's no reward for actually being a supporter that helps everyone else do better. I'm tired of doing *everything right* and getting punished for it.

I understand you. This game is a mile wide, but only one inch deep.

[Zaver11]

Lockheed_, on 13 December 2020 - 09:47 AM, said:

That was always how MWO played. I has not changed. The only diffrence is now that the ranking system now shows people that they are not contributing.
I hate to say it but you are not doing "everything right" in QP. The obejctive is to kill the enemy. The best way to support your team is to do your part by dealing damage. Your "helping everyone else doing better" does less for the team then if you would just shoot the enemy.
The flaw is not in the how the game ranks your perfrmance it is that all the support things actually do not contribute enough. NARC in QP for example just sucks. A narced enemy simply does not create enough value for your team.

And if all I did was support, I would agree with you.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Because sadly, no one that quick plays, wants to play with "Teamwork"

The average MWO pilot, wants to hop in, shoot mechs... literally "turn off brain, do big damage, unga bunga!"

Teamplay should be rewarded, but that's not what most playing the game want, and it seems like the community is set on steering the game towards more "skill" based play, BIG DAMAGE UNGA BUNGA, BIG BOOM!

it is what it is I guess... teamplay will likely be relegated to Faction Play at this rate... if you want your voice heard though, converse with the new community lead over in the command chair, put up your concerns. PGI seems to want to let the community drive things, if you see a problem, you need to be part of the discussion... or your voice won't matter in the end.

[Zaver11]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 December 2020 - 09:52 AM, said:

Because sadly, no one that quick plays, wants to play with "Teamwork"

The average MWO pilot, wants to hop in, shoot mechs... literally "turn off brain, do big damage, unga bunga!"

Teamplay should be rewarded, but that's not what most playing the game want, and it seems like the community is set on steering the game towards more "skill" based play, BIG DAMAGE UNGA BUNGA, BIG BOOM!

it is what it is I guess... teamplay will likely be relegated to Faction Play at this rate... if you want your voice heard though, converse with the new community lead over in the command chair, put up your concerns. PGI seems to want to let the community drive things, if you see a problem, you need to be part of the discussion... or your voice won't matter in the end.

I'll do that. Thank you.

[K O Z A K]

Lockheed_, on 13 December 2020 - 09:47 AM, said:

That was always how MWO played. I has not changed. The only diffrence is now that the ranking system now shows people that they are not contributing.
I hate to say it but you are not doing "everything right" in QP. The obejctive is to kill the enemy. The best way to support your team is to do your part by dealing damage. Your "helping everyone else doing better" does less for the team then if you would just shoot the enemy.
The flaw is not in the how the game ranks your perfrmance it is that all the support things actually do not contribute enough. NARC in QP for example just sucks. A narced enemy simply does not create enough value for your team.

this is 100% accurate

you didn't go up in tier with the old system because the system counted all your support efforts and measured them as useful for the team, you went up because everyone just went up no matter what, it was essentially an XP bar where you went up no matter how poorly you did

also don't think for a second if you were in a higher tier now there would be less nascar and more communication, in fact it's the opposite

the reason you may see less communication today than a few years ago is simple, the same people have played the same maps with the same mechs and the same weapons thousands of times. When the mechs drop, 10/12 of your team already know exactly where they're going to go, where they'll start nascaring (and they will, because they've been conditioned over thousands of drops that anyone trying not to nascar is just a speedbump for the enemy), where they'll likely encounter the back end of the enemy nascar, and where the front will be, nobody sees any reason to communicate as they're just repeating the same thing they've done many many times already

Edited by Hazeclaw, 13 December 2020 - 10:05 AM.

[Swamp Butt]

The only thing that seems to affect rating, is damage done. If you run around, and cap ****, without damaging as you were capping, and spotting, you get dropped in PSR even if your team wins. This, in my opinion is an issue... You help secure the win, by capping, you should be rewarded. With this being said, why not just remove all the game mode, and leave it to skirmish.

[Flanking Boy]

I also think the game took a drive to the worse after the new system.
and i agree with its now only damage that matter, that is also the reason why you see so few types of mech now.

now you need a mech that can do a lot of damage in a short period, or play hide and run sniper chicken mode way.
i have 208 mech and now i probably only use 10 of them, there is a to big risk that i don't do enough damage in those.

btw i have never seen so many assault and light as I see now....

[Spheroid]

Why are you against your tier dropping? If you allow it to drop naturally you can be that NARC hero to tier 5 lurm users and be the recipient of their praise and accolades.

You need to determine if the joy of narcing is a stronger force than the bitterness of seeing negative psr progress. Another option is to create an alt account where you can do fun things without damaging your main psr.

Edited by Spheroid, 13 December 2020 - 11:49 AM.

[Nightbird]

Lockheed_, on 13 December 2020 - 06:17 AM, said:

PSR changed from a glorified XP bar to a skill rating.
The old system rewarded you for participation, considering your performance only marginally. Just putting in enough hours would have you end up in T1. The new sytem is now just rating your skill. It compares your performance with your team mates and your enemies and only considers win or lose to a small amount.
If your rank keeps going down then that means you are outperformed by the people you are playing with.

That's false, it's a new rating system but it's not a skill rating system. If it was a skill rating system we'd see better matching making, less stomps, and more people around 1 WLR.

A skill rating system should reward you for helping the team win. This rating system does not do that. For example, to grind my Jarl's ranking (based on MS like the new PSR system), I intentionally avoid killing enemies shooting at my teammates in order to get more damage out of them and reduce the teammates I am competing with for kills and damage. That's how I got to rank 8 https://leaderboard.isengrim.org/

Here's my thread on how a skill based rating system would affect match making compared to the PSR system we have today. The difference is, forgive the pun, night and day.
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6361878

Edited by Nightbird, 13 December 2020 - 12:17 PM.

[Capt Deadpool]

Sorry you are having a tough time, Zaver.

One thing that comes with experience and is important to MWO success is pattern recognition; you can many times tell within the first minute of a game by looking at your team's formation on the minimap if your team is going to be slaughtered or if you have a chance of victory. e.g., how many of your teammates are alone, going the wrong way, how divided lances are, etc.

If you notice your assault lance is about to be eaten, I would say more than 50% of the time of you use comms and don't come across like an a$$ you can say, "Hey guys, let's hold up at (specific location) or we are gonna lose our fatties." And the team will listen. If they don't, you have to accept 'pug-life' and that you are probably about to lose, and try to make some fun for yourself before you die.

MWO is also very much paper-rock-scissors. As a flea, ebon jags are one of the easiest targets in the game for me if I can engage them in a manner where their team cannot assist them, based on their hitboxes, mobility, armor, weapon arcs. I don't even really care what loadouts they are carrying. You mention carrying medium pulses, but I don't respect those either unless it is a decent pilot in a fresh meta-medium. Burn time is still too long on clan m-pulses. So know thyself, and know thy enemy.

If you want to play something where you can effectively guard assaults, try a fast-heavily armored medium. If you have good aim, you can use PPFLD weapons, otherwise SRMs or small-pulses or IS m-pulses or MRMs or streaks are all good anti-light options. Learn about the interactions between streaks and stealth or you will become frustrated, as I frequently kill many mechs who were under the impression that their streak build would be effective against all lights.

Don't try to rush to the defense of every mech that is out of position; lots of times guys that are very out of position are very bad players who are going to die regardless and trying to save them means you or your team may have to give up superior tactical position. You need to assess.

Also, play what is fun and forget about ranking. If you like narc-raven, go nuts and who cares what tier you end up in.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 16 December 2020 - 11:40 AM.

[Bowelhacker]

If ever proof was needed about what a *********** this game and its loudmouthed players are this thread is it.