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What Is The Point Of Cooperative In New Ranking System?


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#41 Bud Crue

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 02:35 PM

View PostZaver11, on 14 December 2020 - 01:20 PM, said:


I just don't know any more. I've even tried some of the metabuilds over the past few hours. I'm dying even faster now because they're super vulnerable to being back-shot because for some reason they recommend 99.999999% of the armor at the front. To the point where a locust with a pair of large lasers bloody near one shotted me because no one was guarding the flanks. These "metas" seem once again dependent on the idea that there are competent people on the team doing their job. I.E. the lights/mediums are guarding the flanks and watching for that. Rather than simply running forward like they're blood starved hounds that haven't eaten in a week. I literally cannot even stay alive long enough to check to see how these new "meta" builds perform because they're built around the idea that people are doing their jobs. Posted Image

It's not fun to die in the first 30 seconds of a match because you get murder-balled and everyone's gone off to do their own thing, leaving you with the choice of "backpedal while facing down an armored charge because you've been left at the rear of the group" or "frantically attempt to catch up to guys 20-60 KPH faster than you and leave yourself open to being backshot by aforementioned murder ball." And it happens over. And over. And over again. Because apparently most of the people in this game think they're playing a TF2 Pyro, only without the complexity of having to know when to reflect a hostile rocket.


All I can tell you is that if you know your reality of game play, and it isn't fun, then you need to do something else. Example, you say you are dying in the first 30 seconds. Yep, I was the same trying to play slow assaults. So I don't play slow assaults anymore (unless I am dropping with a friend). Is that limiting? Yes. Do I not die in 30 seconds anymore? Yes.

You say you are getting back shot a lot. Yep me too. That's why I went from the old rule of thumb of just a few points in my rear armor to at least 6 in each section these days (sometimes more in particularly slothful mechs). Same sort of consideration with mechs that have no guns in the arms or have awful pitch. I play them less often now than I used to because the piranha and flee have changed things for me.

As to relaying on others in QP "to do their job" don't do that. I certainly don't unless I am dropping in a group and I know what me fellows expect of me, and I them. In QP I don't even trust seemingly reasonable calls. I've seen/heard to many say things like "OK guys lets go to XYZ", or "push X!", or whatever and then not only does he speaker not do what they just called, but they do something completely contrary. It may be a team game, but unfortunately unless you trust who you are playing with or know how they play and can reasonably rely on them to perform a certain way, it's every player for them self out there. If you want team play you need to join a group, and that's always been true to some extent.

Edited by Bud Crue, 14 December 2020 - 02:37 PM.


#42 Brauer

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 03:18 PM

View PostZaver11, on 14 December 2020 - 01:41 PM, said:

https://mech.nav-alp...#6ca46e23_EBJ-A

https://mech.nav-alp...#3aa0faff_LBK-C

These are what I'm looking at. These are what the forums are calling the good lists/tier advice builds. I tried them both. In both instances, I got back shot because a stealth/ECM mech flanked us and no one was watching.


How is getting shot in the butt the build's fault? That seems more like a positioning issue and/or QP teams being garbage.

#43 Zaver11

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 07:22 PM

View PostBrauer, on 14 December 2020 - 03:18 PM, said:


How is getting shot in the butt the build's fault? That seems more like a positioning issue and/or QP teams being garbage.


In this case? Because the build recommends armor on the back so light that the average member of the Astra Militarum would take issue with it. It's an extreme vulnerability that assumes that somehow, someone's guarding your flanks since as a heavy, ideally, your front is always facing towards the enemy (just like a modern battle tank, which has the vast majority of its armor on its front). In an ideal setting, where people knew what they were doing and there was coordination, that might not be a bad idea. Since if the enemy's managed to wipe your flanks like that, you're probably up a certain creek without a certain implement anyway.

But in QP? These so called "meta" builds seem garbage so far precisely because the QP teams tend to have garbage coordination. It's another frustrating instance of "I am doing this right, and following people's advice to change up my build, using the version and such that everyone is recommending, only for it to make my situation actively worse as a result..."

Do you see the source of the frustration? I apologize if I am being unclear (and I do mean that sincerely, I am not always the most clear communicator.)

#44 Gagis

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 07:47 PM

When faced with a skirmisher, put your back against a wall and do as much damage as you can. More often that not, the extra armour in the front will let you live longer to get out one more alpha strike, than extra armour in the rear would. Its a legit doctrine.

#45 PocketYoda

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 07:53 PM

I love this New PSR i'm slowly migrating back to tier 4 where i assume i should be.. Before i'd go up even if i did badly.. and then i had to be seal clubbed in tier 3 daily At one point i made it to tier 2...... O.o (partially why i quit last time).

I know others are more competitive than i am but i feel at least this new PSR is more accurate in the long run, am i a bad player maybe but forcing me to be in vastly high tiers than my talents would let me was game breaking and a horrible experience.

Edited by Samial, 14 December 2020 - 07:58 PM.


#46 Zaver11

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 08:04 PM

View PostGagis, on 14 December 2020 - 07:47 PM, said:

When faced with a skirmisher, put your back against a wall and do as much damage as you can. More often that not, the extra armour in the front will let you live longer to get out one more alpha strike, than extra armour in the rear would. Its a legit doctrine.


Yep. I won't deny that as a strategy. The problem is, as I am learning, in QP, you must have enough armor to survive a surprise backshot because the guys you were expecting to defend your flank instead have decided to do their best Road Runner v. Coyote impressions.

#47 Nightbird

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 08:15 PM

View PostZaver11, on 14 December 2020 - 08:04 PM, said:

Yep. I won't deny that as a strategy. The problem is, as I am learning, in QP, you must have enough armor to survive a surprise backshot because the guys you were expecting to defend your flank instead have decided to do their best Road Runner v. Coyote impressions.


I never have more than 2-3 points of back armor and I do OK. I think you just need to learn the maps and positioning as it takes a pretty serious lapse of situational awareness to get shot in the back like what you're describing.

#48 Brauer

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 08:38 PM

View PostZaver11, on 14 December 2020 - 07:22 PM, said:


In this case? Because the build recommends armor on the back so light that the average member of the Astra Militarum would take issue with it. It's an extreme vulnerability that assumes that somehow, someone's guarding your flanks since as a heavy, ideally, your front is always facing towards the enemy


Low back armor is a vulnerability, but it's one that can be mitigated quite well by properly positioning, moving, and twisting your mech. High back armor is ultimately a greater vulnerability because generally you are aiming to point your front at the enemy for some period of time to fire, whereas you always want to avoid giving up your back. While teams in QP are bad and will sell you out even when doing so is bad for the team you would be better off not blaming teams. The way to improve is by thinking through why an enemy was able to get into your back and how you could have played each situation differently. You will not have a better time if you focus on blaming the lack of coordination among random players for your losses

If you can't do this analysis immediately after the match, we all get frustrated sometimes I get it, then you could record some of your matches and give them a look after the fact. The reality is you will not find any strong players who run much back armor (much less enough to survive an alpha from ANY mech) and there's a reason for it.

#49 Zaver11

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 04:24 AM

View PostNightbird, on 14 December 2020 - 08:15 PM, said:

I never have more than 2-3 points of back armor and I do OK. I think you just need to learn the maps and positioning as it takes a pretty serious lapse of situational awareness to get shot in the back like what you're describing.


https://i.imgur.com/GBvEUKw.jpg

Apologies, this is the best pic I could find of Tourmaline's battlegrid (and I am unsure of the policy of uploading screenshots, since a "print-screen" would be ridiculously huge). Was in the southeastern sector of E-6. Near the crescent shape rock protrusion, firing into main enemy cluster in F-5. The backshot came from a stealthed mech approximately 450 meters away, near where E-6 and D-6 budge up against one another, at the top of the short rise. He was outside of ECM warning range, so there was no low signal indicator. It was a locust or raven, from the quick glance of the profile that I saw. I believe he had a pair of large lasers. Would explain the range and as I turned to ascertain the threat, I believe I caught sight of a blue flash as a second volley was tearing at my left shoulder/arm.

All I know for sure is my first indication of his presence was that my back armor was gone, my torso is suddenly deep orange, and I have a "critical damage" warning alarm blaring in my cockpit. And I am left with the case of "my team is pushing into F-6/F-5, and are ignoring my warnings that we have a little backstabbing rogue flanking us. Do I go with them and let a follow up shot finish me off? Do I engage the Raven/Locust/Whatever, thereby leaving myself alone and vulnerable to hostile missile boats that could easily polish me off in one lucky LRM salvo, and hope that this pilot isn't expecting a charge and panics, rather than simply running circles around my linebacker (and if he's clever enough to pull off this kind of flanking, I'm betting he's probably experienced enough that he knows what to do when the enemy responds in such a manner) or do I slam my back against a wall and pray that I can survive on my own because the group is going to leave me because it's rotatoe-potatoe o'clock and they're not stopping for anything."

I chose the last option because it at least gave me the remote chance of being able to fire back at the stealthed adversary. And promptly died approximately 15-20 seconds later when a pair of ATM spamming vapor eagles noticed the isolated target, tagged me, and fired down on me mid-jump.

I'm certainly guilty of losing situational awareness when the auto-cannon rounds and missiles are slamming in to my cockpit. But this is one of those situations where I'm honestly not sure how I'm supposed to stop it from happening if there's no one guarding our flanks. Because this guy was 180 degrees behind me, was clever enough to stay outside of the "low signal" warning range, and for some inane reason, no one thought to put so much as a rear-view mirror on this 21+ million space buck war machine...

I think I can see the logic in the "meta" builds for the linebacker and E-J are recommending, but given the fact that right now, stealth armor is all the rage among IS light mechs since the devs, in their infinite wisdom, decided that the armor that grants virtual thermal invisibility by holding in the heat weapons fire/the big honking fusion reactor is making should still be able to cool off at a reasonable rate while the stealth systems are active, I hope you'll forgive me if I decide I'm going to keep at least a double-digit amount of armor on my backside so that some cheeky little fellow can't instagib me with an alpha-strike...

#50 Brauer

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 05:45 AM

If you drop your front armor lower to have 10+ armor on your back you are just making it that much easier for the majority of enemies to kill you from the front.

In the situation you described you should have simply pushed over the ridge, cut line of sight from the erll mech using the many rock formations, and twisted your mech so that a follow up shot would not hit your back. At 97+ kph your LBK should have easily escaped and been able to stick with the deathball.

Edited by Brauer, 15 December 2020 - 06:30 AM.


#51 Zaver11

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 06:58 AM

View PostBrauer, on 15 December 2020 - 05:45 AM, said:

If you drop your front armor lower to have 10+ armor on your back you are just making it that much easier for the majority of enemies to kill you from the front.

In the situation you described you should have simply pushed over the ridge, cut line of sight from the erll mech using the many rock formations, and twisted your mech so that a follow up shot would not hit your back. At 97+ kph your LBK should have easily escaped and been able to stick with the deathball.


Alright. I'll try that next time. Thank you.

#52 R Valentine

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 09:44 AM

View PostBrauer, on 15 December 2020 - 05:45 AM, said:

If you drop your front armor lower to have 10+ armor on your back you are just making it that much easier for the majority of enemies to kill you from the front. In the situation you described you should have simply pushed over the ridge, cut line of sight from the erll mech using the many rock formations, and twisted your mech so that a follow up shot would not hit your back. At 97+ kph your LBK should have easily escaped and been able to stick with the deathball.


Agreed. Never take one situation that happens once a week and use that as the rule. Even mediocre players die 85% of the time from being shot in the front. When they are shot in the back, it's because they have enemies on both sides, so extra back armor doesn't help anyways. 10 back armor is insane even for newer players. 5 is plenty. Once your position and map familiarity grows you can downgrade to 3 or even 2.

#53 MechWarrior414712

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 12:59 PM

People here also seem to have the false assumption that PSR is supposed to be a currency that you gather. It's supposed to be a balancing factor, not a reward for people. Besides, it's already really screwed. Lots of noobs in tier 1 since all it takes to be better than average is to be able to build your mech properly. You don't even have to know how to play.

#54 VonBruinwald

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 01:04 PM

View PostKiran Yagami, on 15 December 2020 - 09:44 AM, said:


10 back armor is insane even for newer players. 5 is plenty. Once your position and map familiarity grows you can downgrade to 3 or even 2.


My advice:
Only take enough for that +1 from armour hardening, any more than that and you're short-changing the front.

#55 Nightbird

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 01:07 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 15 December 2020 - 01:04 PM, said:


My advice:
Only take enough for that +1 from armour hardening, any more than that and you're short-changing the front.


Bad advice.

#56 VonBruinwald

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 01:53 PM

View PostNightbird, on 15 December 2020 - 01:07 PM, said:

Bad advice.


Depends on your play style.

#57 MechWarrior414712

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 02:37 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 15 December 2020 - 01:53 PM, said:


Depends on your play style.


Here you should know that you still get a bonus even if it doesn't show that extra +1 since that number is just a rounded number from a float.

#58 VonBruinwald

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 04:13 PM

View PostI O O percent KongLord, on 15 December 2020 - 02:37 PM, said:

Here you should know that you still get a bonus even if it doesn't show that extra +1 since that number is just a rounded number from a float.


Is that a confirmed thing or just speculation? I know it's assigned fractionally in the lab but it just seems cleaner to start a match with rounded values, most players won't notice a 0.4 difference.

#59 Gagis

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 10:35 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 15 December 2020 - 04:13 PM, said:


Is that a confirmed thing or just speculation? I know it's assigned fractionally in the lab but it just seems cleaner to start a match with rounded values, most players won't notice a 0.4 difference.
Its confirmed.

#60 General Solo

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 11:19 PM

View PostI O O percent KongLord, on 15 December 2020 - 12:59 PM, said:


......Lots of noobs in tier 1 since all it takes to be better than average is to be able to build your mech properly...
...........
.....You don't even have to know how to play.....



Lmfao..................can get to T1 with out knowing how to playz
How they biuld their mech then?
So which one is it? Posted Image Bad faith

Mix just enough truth with the lies...
.....Should make them easier to farm! Posted Image

Ironic font/

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 15 December 2020 - 11:24 PM.






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