101 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 19 January 2021 - 02:00 PM, said:

Allowing pugs to opt-in to the premade queue (while keeping the existing pug queue) is something that has been proposed years ago. It would also have allowed for 11-man premades to exist. Maybe even offer these brave pugs a spacebucks bonus for their contribution.

I think that should have been tried before merging it all together.

Or have an option to opt-OUT of matches with groups.

[Vlad Ward]

inb4 "Sync droppers are ruining the game"

[Knight Captain Morgan]

If matchmaker were willing to say, put 2, 4-mans, a 2-man, and 2 solos against 3, 3-mans and 3-solos then premades' wait times would be lower but pgi is only willing to put 1, 4-man per match per team because apparently premades are only willing to play if they are fed enough solo pugs to farm.

[Knight Captain Morgan]

Pgi merged queues under the pretense that wait times were too high but now they artificially inflate wait times by limiting 1, 4-man per team per match instead of being willing to fill up both sides with all premades. All because premades are not willing to face premades, the irony.

Edited by Knight Captain Morgan, 19 January 2021 - 07:01 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Who said premades aren't willing to face premades? That's all well and good they just have to be able to make sure they don't stack multiple groups on one side and none on the other.

[Vlad Ward]

It's just your bog standard low effort trolling.

[Knight Captain Morgan]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 January 2021 - 08:03 PM, said:

Who said premades aren't willing to face premades? That's all well and good they just have to be able to make sure they don't stack multiple groups on one side and none on the other.

the facts that in Faction play and old group que, premades started queue dodging each other and both modes died out when there were no more seals to club.

[Nearly Dead]

Not worth debating anymore. They ran the IP into the ground by not improving it for years and years then started to make more bad decisions (like dumping groups into solo queue) under the pressure of dropping player numbers, which made it worse. I doubt that the game could be saved now if they won the Powerball and Mega Millions and spent it all on mechs, maps, and advertising.

[R Valentine]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 January 2021 - 02:29 PM, said:

Or have an option to opt-OUT of matches with groups.

Everyone would opt out then. The fact of the matter is, PGI knows that solo players do not want to play along side group players. That's why the whole, "Solo opt in to group queue" feature never materialized. PGI knew very few people would ever click that button. The best solution was always 8v8 group queue. They had it, and then chose a sub-optimal solution instead, one that angered a large portion of the player base.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Kiran Yagami, on 20 January 2021 - 06:44 AM, said:

Everyone would opt out then. The fact of the matter is, PGI knows that solo players do not want to play along side group players. That's why the whole, "Solo opt in to group queue" feature never materialized. PGI knew very few people would ever click that button. The best solution was always 8v8 group queue. They had it, and then chose a sub-optimal solution instead, one that angered a large portion of the player base.

Wish we could go back to 8v8

[Gas Guzzler]

Knight Captain Morgan, on 20 January 2021 - 02:39 AM, said:

the facts that in Faction play and old group que, premades started queue dodging each other and both modes died out when there were no more seals to club.

Bad groups maybe, but those are the same groups that I DON'T want on my team and would rather have a team full of solos.

[Knight Captain Morgan]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 January 2021 - 09:18 AM, said:

Bad groups maybe, but those are the same groups that I DON'T want on my team and would rather have a team full of solos.

All groups actually, otherwise group queue and faction play wouldn't have died the way they did and this wouldn't be an issue.

[VonBruinwald]

Knight Captain Morgan, on 20 January 2021 - 09:46 AM, said:

All groups actually, otherwise group queue and faction play wouldn't have died the way they did and this wouldn't be an issue.

In defence; from my FW days:

If you're playing as 5 man + pugs and constantly going up against a 12-man, it isn't fun. You can only be stomped and spawn killed so many times before you give up for the night. 12-mans avoiding 12-mans was the real problem, since they were doing so because they wanted to stomp smaller groups/pugs.

Big groups drove away small groups then subsequently quit because they didn't want to go up against other big groups.

Should have limited group size to 2 OR 4 in group queue, this would have broken up the larger groups stomping and helped the MM fix matches faster since 2 and 4s can be easily combined to get 12.

[Vlad Ward]

A group-only matchmaker requires a significantly higher population than a mixed matchmaker to get to the same level of match quality. Even if the two queues had started with an equal population, a group-only queue would have significantly lower match quality due solely to the MM's significantly reduced options in building teams.

Low match quality drives queue population down which drives match quality down. It's a feedback loop which will always, every single time, destroy a group-only queue. It's dumb. It's unsustainable. It's unnecessary.

[VonBruinwald]

Vlad Ward, on 20 January 2021 - 10:14 AM, said:

Low match quality drives queue population down which drives match quality down. It's a feedback loop which will always, every single time, destroy a group-only queue. It's dumb. It's unsustainable. It's unnecessary.

So the "solution" is to merge the queues which drives match quality down...

[Vlad Ward]

VonBruinwald, on 20 January 2021 - 10:27 AM, said:

So the "solution" is to merge the queues which drives match quality down...

Yes. A Mixed queue will have theoretically lower match quality than a solo-only queue. Full stop. The important thing is how much lower. That's why we have things like group size limits and group min/max tonnage limits which prevent some of the more extreme cases which can negatively impact match quality. It is better overall to have a mixed queue than separate solo-only and group-only queues.

And no, the feedback loop isn't nearly as powerful as it is in a Group-only queue. Why? Because when the population of the Group-only queue goes down, it's largely because players are just dropping solo instead. In order for the population of a Mixed queue to go down, people would have to stop playing the game entirely. That's a much higher bar to clear.

Anyone who really quits MWO because of the queue merge isn't quitting because of actual match quality - which is perfectly fine right now and nowhere near the hellscape that was the Group-only queue. They're just angry people waiting for an excuse.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 20 January 2021 - 10:41 AM.

[R Valentine]

Vlad Ward, on 20 January 2021 - 10:39 AM, said:

Yes. A Mixed queue will have theoretically lower match quality than a solo-only queue. Full stop. The important thing is how much lower. That's why we have things like group size limits and group min/max tonnage limits which prevent some of the more extreme cases which can negatively impact match quality. It is better overall to have a mixed queue than separate solo-only and group-only queues.

And no, the feedback loop isn't nearly as powerful as it is in a Group-only queue. Why? Because when the population of the Group-only queue goes down, it's largely because players are just dropping solo instead. In order for the population of a Mixed queue to go down, people would have to stop playing the game entirely. That's a much higher bar to clear.

Anyone who really quits MWO because of the queue merge isn't quitting because of actual match quality - which is perfectly fine right now and nowhere near the hellscape that was the Group-only queue. They're just angry people waiting for an excuse.

Group queues problem went beyond player counts. 12v12 with no limits on group numbers beyond 11 and 1 left too many gaps in the math where there could be 24 players or more in the queue, but still no match to be had because no group combinations added up to 12 and 12. 24 is also just too high of a bar to begin with. Not to mention tonnage issues that came forth when a group of 10 or 12 would be forced into smaller mechs to keep the weight down but 5 groups of 2 could all drop in 95 ton assaults and still wind up on the same team. 8v8 worked great because it lowered the bar players necessary to get a match going. It was implied from the get go that dropping in numbers of 5 or 3 could see increased queue times, but even when we did drop as either of those prime numbers we still saw matches within only a few minutes. I think 8v8 group queue with a max group size of 4 would be the way to go. Then 3s wouldn't be as much of an issue because 3 and 3 can still match with a duo of 2, which is a common size. It'll also solve a lot of tonnage issues, because there would be no large groups forced to spread out their weight.

[Vlad Ward]

8v8 was just a better game. 12v12 was expanded for BT Lore buff reasons more than any compelling gameplay reason. Unfortunately I don't think we're ever going back. It's a huge cascading change.

[GARION26]

Knight Captain Morgan, on 20 January 2021 - 02:39 AM, said:

the facts that in Faction play and old group que, premades started queue dodging each other and both modes died out when there were no more seals to club.

You realize the current matchmaker puts a group in both teams as the first matchmaking priority right?

If you are playing as a group in QP you are almost certainly facing another group on the other side of the match. You aren't only facing grouped players but you aren't dodging the terrible scourge of running into another equally skilled group.

As far as I can tell the actual statements from PGI show a 0.7% increase in stomp rate after groups were added in. That's before PSR calculations changed and PSR was reset. Those factors would reduce stomp rate as the old PSR was a terrible matchmaking measure.

[VonBruinwald]

Vlad Ward, on 20 January 2021 - 10:39 AM, said:

A mixed queue has resulted in a lower match quality. Full stop.

Fixed.

GARION26, on 20 January 2021 - 11:10 AM, said:

As far as I can tell the actual statements from PGI show a 0.7% increase in stomp rate after groups were added in.

If memory serves, Their final number was 1% and their definition was a 10 kill difference.