290 replies to this topic

[AjerWerklWerkl]

50 50, on 16 November 2020 - 09:00 PM, said:

Happy to see some new maps.

For the existing ones:

Spawn Point locations
Is it possible to have some different setups for spawn locations without needing to have duplicates of the maps to save of database size etc?
There was a good suggestion about this in the forums a while back about having a single map with multiple different configurations for the starting spawn locations so we increase the variety of play on each map simply by altering where we start.

Adjustable out of bounds
This ties in with the spawn point idea but also lends towards a potential new type of mission and even team sizes for the matches.
With much of the game play in the matches taking place in some common areas, if we adjusted the spawn locations we could also adjust the out of bounds area to move combat into sections of the map that may rarely be used.
eg: What if the area we had to fight in on the new forest colony map was only around the very northern and eastern edges of the map from C6,D6,E6 around the beaches and islands to K10,K11,K12?

See here for reference: https://mwo.smurfy-n...lony&m=skirmish

If that could be done pre map selection along with spawn points we can multiply map use.

To lend that idea to a new type of mission, what if capturing a point on the map then changed the out of bounds area dynamically in game allowing a sort of territory control style of mission within a single match?
Take Incursion as an example and the battery locations instead opened specific corridors to the enemy base while protecting that same corridor to your own base while your team controlled that point all by building functionality into the out of bounds.

I'd like to know if that would be possible.

I agree 100% with both of these. The first one is most important to implement. The second one is brilliant and very creative.

Daeron, please consider priotizing the first one (spawn points) as the #1 first fix to do, as it's so easy and improves game play tremendously for EVERYONE.

Many thanks for your hard work on this, Daeron!

[Bowelhacker]

Crashburn, on 16 November 2020 - 06:48 PM, said:

As for a map update:

Hibernal Rift in regards to quick play. I can't think of another map that devolves into a Nascar every single match! Everyone does circles around the center spire no matter what.

Perhaps if that map had the downed dropship moved from the ditch on the right of the Spire (Theta), over to the left of the Spire on the high ground, which would seal off the counter-clockwise rotation around the center. That might improve gameplay in itself. Or perhaps structures(base) in that area. I just suggested moving the dropship because maybe that's the easiest thing to do, without redesigning the terrain.

I see this map get voted a lot. Nearly every drop I've played on it, is either my team or the opponent team getting rolled. <- Either result I don't find very enjoyable. I know there are some in the game that love the 12-0 stomps when they are on the winning team. But when the enemy evaporates so quick you have to run full bore just to get shots in before it's over...for me that's boring. Very rarely have I had even drops on this map (i.e. 12-10 result). Also, it's not like the team makeups in those matches were skewed to one side or the other.

I know every map will have some players/teams that will try to nascar; but in my opinion, on this map it's out of control.

A stomp is bad regardless which side you're on.

[Sheridan Mackison]

Waterworld map where the whole mission is stomping around in 3 - 10 m deep water and swamps. Ship hulls, dead trees and rock outcropping for cover. This would be a cooler map that truly benefits heat when heat sinks are below water-level. More creatures like those occasionally glimpsed in Viridean Bog.

New map that is the outside of a space cruiser. One team defends the starship while the other team tries to gain access through a dropship bay door. Perhaps allow all sides of the starship (except the engines) to be in-bounds.

Edited by Sheridan Mackison, 19 November 2020 - 08:38 PM.

[Panther9x]

I recall someone had a great idea of redoing Polar Highlands so it was a summer time map with more terrain. I would suggest a jungle theme with plenty of terrain, buildings and massive trees. Thoughts?

With time of day changes, I think it needs to go. Have the map time of day be chosen randomly and then stay that way for the whole match. I can't believe someone said they couldn't tell that this was tanking their performance. My FPS drops 50% or so when TOD changes occur.

[Tamerlin]

New Community-Driven Maps - that process would need to be carefully managed, but could be interesting. I don't really care how they are made, but MWO needs 2-3 new maps a year until there are three dozen QP maps.

First step - get the FP Invasion maps Emerald Taiga and Hellebore Springs into QP somehow. Those art assets already exist.

Update Unbalanced Maps / Spawn Point Fixes - I'll combine these as they are both really just "refine current maps". Like above, this needs to be carefully managed. I envision each map will have a dedicated review team who will suggest changes in physical location (buildings, ground environment) to support cover and firing arcs and recommend spawn points. Maybe a series of map-only town halls? (Small thing: when exiting drop ship each mech should face the middle of the map).

In addition to Daeron's list, I suggest:

Seasons - I'd like to see more "seasonal" maps. Like how Canyon Network compared to Hibernal Rift or Forest Colony and Forest Colony Snow.

Invisible Walls - I understand how CryEngine has polygon limitations on each map. But I'd rather have unusually shaped terrain art than invisible walls.

Environmental effects - moving thru water, swamp or trees should slow you mech down. Similarly firing thru forests should reduce damage.

QP Drop Deck - this belongs in "Maps" because the only reason you want to change you chosen 'Mech is the wrong map comes up. MWO is the only game that allows you to vote on maps and modes, and if your map does not win you get more "votes" next time. I love that and praise PGI for it. However, when you bring a brawler and Polar Highlands is selected you wince.

Suggestion - a QP drop deck of up to four slots (like FP). The angle is that you must pick 'Mech of the same chassis. Not tech base (IS vs Clan), not class (L, M, H, A), not tonnage - same chassis. Each 'Mech in the deck must be fully equipped and ready to drop - no return to the MechLab to load a saved build. This allows players to use a 'Mech build better suited to the selected map and encourage players to own more than one variant of a chassis (like before the Skill Tree).

New players are penalized here, as they don't have many 'Mechs at all (side note: I don't have too much pity, as I had to buy three variants of each chassis to fully master it). So an exception to the "same chassis" rule could be allowing selection of Trial 'Mechs of the same tech base and class.

NASCAR - As explained in the amazingly awesome "Tactics 101 Comics" (https://mwomercs.com...ics-101-comics/), NASCAR is just flanking. What makes it a "NASCAR" is the team-abandonment of the slower 'Mechs. However, there are several things that encourage this play style:

• Many maps have large, central feature that provides cover from lock-on weapons
  
• Many maps have spawn locations that place the heavier 'Mechs to one side - since new players are taught to "get to the assaults", that favors a team-rotation movement
  
• MWO armor/weapon mechanics. MWO uses a hit-point armor system and rewards any "scratch damage" with match score. Combined with no type of vision control, "death balling" is an obvious way that PUG teams can focus fire and share armor without much organization.

I can't think of an easy way around this. Removing the large features will overly reward range builds. Spreading out the assaults just makes it take longer for them to consolidate. I'd like to see ideas here.

PS: can we cut the 80 seconds down much lower? Do we have statistics on how many players join the game at 40 seconds vs 80?

[FearThePaladin]

Sheridan Mackison, on 17 November 2020 - 04:15 PM, said:

I like the idea of rolling plains. Having tall prairie grass to provide an new type of cover would be interesting.

Rolling plains = LRM happiness, other players not so much. There needs to be ample cover in any map for players to hide from indirect fire.

[Horseman]

Tamerlin, on 19 November 2020 - 10:32 PM, said:

QP Drop Deck - this belongs in "Maps" because the only reason you want to change you chosen 'Mech is the wrong map comes up. MWO is the only game that allows you to vote on maps and modes, and if your map does not win you get more "votes" next time. I love that and praise PGI for it. However, when you bring a brawler and Polar Highlands is selected you wince.

Suggestion - a QP drop deck of up to four slots (like FP). The angle is that you must pick 'Mech of the same chassis. Not tech base (IS vs Clan), not class (L, M, H, A), not tonnage - same chassis. Each 'Mech in the deck must be fully equipped and ready to drop - no return to the MechLab to load a saved build. This allows players to use a 'Mech build better suited to the selected map and encourage players to own more than one variant of a chassis (like before the Skill Tree).

New players are penalized here, as they don't have many 'Mechs at all (side note: I don't have too much pity, as I had to buy three variants of each chassis to fully master it). So an exception to the "same chassis" rule could be allowing selection of Trial 'Mechs of the same tech base and class.

Reasonable approach TBH, and it does reward having differently specced builds of the same chassis... I think it's good!

Quote

NASCAR - As explained in the amazingly awesome "Tactics 101 Comics" (https://mwomercs.com...ics-101-comics/), NASCAR is just flanking. What makes it a "NASCAR" is the team-abandonment of the slower 'Mechs.

More to be precise, mediums too slow to flank trying to follow the maneuver and forcing heavies/assaults to follow them or get overwhelmed and die. This also invalidates the whole point of the flank, because with no concentrated opposition the enemy won't be in place for the original flankers to actually do much but chase their tail over and over.

Quote

I can't think of an easy way around this. Removing the large features will overly reward range builds. Spreading out the assaults just makes it take longer for them to consolidate. I'd like to see ideas here.

NASCAR usually follows certain common paths, so either introduce terrain features that put a barrier in the current usual course of the NASCAR or figure out how to give players quicker paths across the feature without having to rotate around it.

Quote

PS: can we cut the 80 seconds down much lower? Do we have statistics on how many players join the game at 40 seconds vs 80?

When everyone connects, the timer automatically skips to 10. This is only an issue when one of the teams is down a pilot due to connection problems.

Edited by Horseman, 20 November 2020 - 07:16 AM.

[Dregian Bloodwrath]

the ability in quick play to chose the mech you want to drop with after map selection as we all have mechs set up for defendant circumstances. ei polar wins map selection u have a chance to switch to a ams mech and not get stuck in a relentless lurm fest unprotected. also another city map or a base map to fight for control of a landing pad or dropzone

Edited by Dregian Bloodwrath, 20 November 2020 - 09:22 AM.

[Dregian Bloodwrath]

Tamerlin, on 19 November 2020 - 10:32 PM, said:

New Community-Driven Maps - that process would need to be carefully managed, but could be interesting. I don't really care how they are made, but MWO needs 2-3 new maps a year until there are three dozen QP maps.

First step - get the FP Invasion maps Emerald Taiga and Hellebore Springs into QP somehow. Those art assets already exist.

Update Unbalanced Maps / Spawn Point Fixes - I'll combine these as they are both really just "refine current maps". Like above, this needs to be carefully managed. I envision each map will have a dedicated review team who will suggest changes in physical location (buildings, ground environment) to support cover and firing arcs and recommend spawn points. Maybe a series of map-only town halls? (Small thing: when exiting drop ship each mech should face the middle of the map).

In addition to Daeron's list, I suggest:

Seasons - I'd like to see more "seasonal" maps. Like how Canyon Network compared to Hibernal Rift or Forest Colony and Forest Colony Snow.

Invisible Walls - I understand how CryEngine has polygon limitations on each map. But I'd rather have unusually shaped terrain art than invisible walls.

Environmental effects - moving thru water, swamp or trees should slow you mech down. Similarly firing thru forests should reduce damage.

QP Drop Deck - this belongs in "Maps" because the only reason you want to change you chosen 'Mech is the wrong map comes up. MWO is the only game that allows you to vote on maps and modes, and if your map does not win you get more "votes" next time. I love that and praise PGI for it. However, when you bring a brawler and Polar Highlands is selected you wince.

Suggestion - a QP drop deck of up to four slots (like FP). The angle is that you must pick 'Mech of the same chassis. Not tech base (IS vs Clan), not class (L, M, H, A), not tonnage - same chassis. Each 'Mech in the deck must be fully equipped and ready to drop - no return to the MechLab to load a saved build. This allows players to use a 'Mech build better suited to the selected map and encourage players to own more than one variant of a chassis (like before the Skill Tree).

New players are penalized here, as they don't have many 'Mechs at all (side note: I don't have too much pity, as I had to buy three variants of each chassis to fully master it). So an exception to the "same chassis" rule could be allowing selection of Trial 'Mechs of the same tech base and class.

NASCAR - As explained in the amazingly awesome "Tactics 101 Comics" (https://mwomercs.com...ics-101-comics/), NASCAR is just flanking. What makes it a "NASCAR" is the team-abandonment of the slower 'Mechs. However, there are several things that encourage this play style:

• Many maps have large, central feature that provides cover from lock-on weapons
  
• Many maps have spawn locations that place the heavier 'Mechs to one side - since new players are taught to "get to the assaults", that favors a team-rotation movement
  
• MWO armor/weapon mechanics. MWO uses a hit-point armor system and rewards any "scratch damage" with match score. Combined with no type of vision control, "death balling" is an obvious way that PUG teams can focus fire and share armor without much organization.

I can't think of an easy way around this. Removing the large features will overly reward range builds. Spreading out the assaults just makes it take longer for them to consolidate. I'd like to see ideas here.




PS: can we cut the 80 seconds down much lower? Do we have statistics on how many players join the game at 40 seconds vs 80?

I agree with the drop deck idea but not with locking it to just one chassis coz honestly i dont want to own 2 or 3 of the same mechs so rather a qp drop deck with 4 mechs u have to pre select same as faction that u can set up for different maps then pick 1 best suited for the map that wins the selection round.As far as dropping in a group of 4 the group tonnage will still factor into the drop preventing groups from all picking assaults after match selection

Edited by Dregian Bloodwrath, 20 November 2020 - 09:41 AM.

[yrrot]

If you want QP drop decks, you should just figure a system to allow any saved, valid loadouts on the same mech you dropped with to be used as long as you have the inventory items to equip it and no cost would be incurred (ie, no armor/structure changes, just weapons/equipment/engines).

So you see the map, then can pick your drop loadout. The only drawback here other than programming time, is it will add X seconds to the pre-round screen after map voting. (You should assume that all player mech loadouts need chosen/verified before map load starts, it'd probably be extra coding to make it more dynamic and load in the background).

[Alreech]

yrrot, on 20 November 2020 - 02:08 PM, said:

If you want QP drop decks, you should just figure a system to allow any saved, valid loadouts on the same mech you dropped with to be used as long as you have the inventory items to equip it and no cost would be incurred (ie, no armor/structure changes, just weapons/equipment/engines).

So you see the map, then can pick your drop loadout. The only drawback here other than programming time, is it will add X seconds to the pre-round screen after map voting. (You should assume that all player mech loadouts need chosen/verified before map load starts, it'd probably be extra coding to make it more dynamic and load in the background).

Faction Play Drop Decks are in the game now, they go from 1 (Scouting) to 4 Mechs (Invasion). Creating a new system would cost more time & money than to adopt the Faction Play Drop decks.

Maybe something like using 2 scouting like drop decks for each class in Quickplay (more for MCs).
You select the class you want to play and can choose your drop deck in the pre match lobby.

Edited by Alreech, 21 November 2020 - 02:12 AM.

[Sheridan Mackison]

FearThePaladin, on 20 November 2020 - 04:57 AM, said:

Rolling plains = LRM happiness, other players not so much. There needs to be ample cover in any map for players to hide from indirect fire.

Rolling Plains cover from LRMs wouldn’t be any different than Polar Highlands, but perhaps that is your point. Thickets of trees on the higher hills could provide additional cover. Perhaps turn the buildings on the map into Stonehenge type structures for cover. Maybe the prairie grass could even have some ECM type radar disruption.

[Alreech]

Sheridan Mackison, on 20 November 2020 - 10:06 PM, said:

Rolling Plains cover from LRMs wouldn’t be any different than Polar Highlands, but perhaps that is your point. Thickets of trees on the higher hills could provide additional cover. Perhaps turn the buildings on the map into Stonehenge type structures for cover. Maybe the prairie grass could even have some ECM type radar disruption.

Or mount one AMS on your Mech and stick with the other AMS equipped Mechs.
Or use a Mech with multiple AMS to give your team AMS cover.
Or use an Mech with ECM and give your team ECM cover.
Or group up before the game and coordinate your Mechs role in the group (who uses AMS, ECM, ect...).

But that won't work in Solo Quickplay, so plz nerf LRMs with ECM grass...

Edited by Alreech, 21 November 2020 - 03:26 AM.

[MarsThunder]

Quite a simple method to improve QoL :-) in Polar Highlands: Add a couple of trenches in the central flat area (the area where 90% of battles take place).

[Vellron2005]

Let me put my 2 cents in on the subject of maps..

You guys REALLY need to investigate the concept of RANDOM MAP GENERATION.

The main problem with current type of maps is that it is very easy to learn them, exploit them, and the games on them are extremely repetitive. It's either nascar or snipe-off.. nothing else exists, and the main reason is that everybody knows the maps by heart.

A random map generator would fix this, and would make the game orders of magnitude more fun.

I don't really care what you have to do, but you really need to implement a random map system to make this game seem fresh.

No amount of new mechs, balance changes or cosmetics will do the trick. You need actual content, actual new expeiences, and only a NEW game evnironment every time can do that.

No, mechs don't count as new game environments.

[McLaine]

I'd like to be able to specify maps that I DON'T want to play on in quick play.

Obviously this could play havok with matchmaking, and may not even be possible, but if I could specify a number of maps (say 1-4) that I don't want to get drawn into, that would be great.

[yrrot]

Alreech, on 20 November 2020 - 02:14 PM, said:

Faction Play Drop Decks are in the game now, they go from 1 (Scouting) to 4 Mechs (Invasion). Creating a new system would cost more time & money than to adopt the Faction Play Drop decks.

Maybe something like using 2 scouting like drop decks for each class in Quickplay (more for MCs).
You select the class you want to play and can choose your drop deck in the pre match lobby.

Both systems already exist, it's work either way. I forgot scouting had 1 mech drop decks, which is functionally similar to what I was suggesting.

What sucks is that giving people too many options lets them have an optimal mech for every match. ie, LURM boat for highlands, brawler for mining, gauss/ppc for rube, etc. Restricting it to one mech loadout at least makes it be builds within the same mech. Making it drop deck centric makes it a smidge P2W if you can buy drop decks with MC.

Of course, if you're modifying maps, then you'd be better off making the existing maps play better for different builds anyway.

[MarsThunder]

McLaine, on 21 November 2020 - 09:53 AM, said:

I'd like to be able to specify maps that I DON'T want to play on in quick play.

This is obviously impossible. A map is selected AFTER the groups are formed.

[Jables McBarty]

Daeron Katz, on 16 November 2020 - 01:08 PM, said:

• Spawn Point Fixes

Canyon Network in general needs spawn points tightened up as long as lances aren't dropping by weight class.

E.g., on Skirmish, the - the C3 spawn point is very far from the rest of the team; this was fine when C3 was always lights/mediums, but if you spawn as a slow assault w/out jump jets, you are essentially out of the game (dead if the enemy team spawns lights on the north side of the map).

Likewise for Hibernal Rift, there are some spawn points that just knock certain assaults/slow heavies out of the game before it starts.

[Timber Ghost]

I think lances need to spawn closer together.

I wonder if it would be possible to have a set of 8v8 maps, and a set of 12v12 maps? The little maps like Frozen City Classic, Forest Colony classic and other smaller maps would be in a 8v8 que. 8v8 and 12v12 would be random, and once those teams are set, then provide a list of 3 or 4 of those maps to vote on. Could be a good chance to bring back a couple of the other classic maps as well. Some maps could even be a part of both size matches. Such as Canyon Network, or HPG manifold. Might be more difficult than it sounds, but I do miss some of the maps like the original caustic valley, original terra therma, and original river city. Might be a chance to bring them back in 8v8 mode.

we also talked about possibly adding the faction play maps to QP. I think they could be a bunch of fun if we just reshaped the borders, and adjusted spawn points. Like Hellbore Springs. Cut the map off at the gates, and spawn in G3 and C3. Fighting would take place in the F3 to D3 area. You could do this with any FP map. Some of them, you could fight on either side of the gates even. Sounds like minimal work to add maps.