41 replies to this topic

[The pessimistic optimist]

ImperialKnight, on 30 January 2021 - 07:45 AM, said:

You missed the boat. It was meta during the Clan invasion period. Now it's fallen behind due to the power creep.

It's still a very good mech, if people would just stop running Missiles on them

I was there for that yea it was a BEAST but the most iconic Clan mech should be meta it just should

Edited by SirSmokes, 30 January 2021 - 07:55 AM.

[w0qj]

The Timber Wolf omnimech is a case study in why Timber Wolf (and omnimechs in general) is used less nowadays:
Just look at its layout & Set-of-8 quirks:
http://mech.nav-alpha.com
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de

******One would argue that Timber Wolf needs to buff up:
a) Set-of-6 quirks buff (improved from Set-of-8)
b ) Slightly more powerful torsos (with more weapon hard points) are needed to catch up with the power creep. See below:


0) Comparing the Timber Wolf (75tons) to the Rifleman IIC (65tons):
~The only thing that the Timber Wolf wins out on is its top speed (XL375 engine).
~For everything else the Rifleman IIC wins out:
~Rifleman IIC has +10% Range quirk.
~Rifleman IIC has better torso twist angle than Timber Wolf (110 degrees vs 80 degrees)
~Rifleman IIC always has option for AMS (only Timber Wolf TBR-C Left Torso has AMS. So you lose Set-of-8 on other variants if you want AMS).
~Rifleman IIC always has option for JumpJet (only Timber Wolf TBR-S has JumpJets in its LT+RT that other variants can use, but again you lose the Set-of-8 bonuses).
~Rifleman IIC has more slots for heat sinks!!


But wait, it gets worse:

1) Energy Build Rifleman IIC vs Timber Wolf A (keep the Set-of-8 quirks):
~Rifleman IIC RFL-IIC: +2 c-LPL HSL. +10% Range. 7x Energy Hard Points. AMS. JJ. More empty slots for heat sinks. Need we say more?

~Timberwolf TBR-A: 6x Energy Hard Points. No AMS. No JJ. OK, if you break the Set-of-8 you can mix/match torsos to get max 9x Energy Hard Points--but you still get less slots for your heat sink !! <The same problem with Warhawk by the way>.

So 65ton RFL-IIC-2 clearly outperforms any 75ton Timber Wolf variant for energy build.


2) Ballistic Build Rifleman IIC-2 vs Timber Wolf TBR-Prime (mix/match torso to get ballistic hardpoints, breaking the Set-of-8 quirk):

~Rifleman RFL-IIC-2: +10% Range. 6x c-UAC2. AMS. JJ. More slots for heat sinks.

~Timber Wolf TBR-Prime: 5x c-UAC2. No AMS. No JJ.
In fact, you use other variants instead of TBR-Prime, you can only get max of 4x c-UAC2 !!

So 65ton RFL-IIC-2 clearly outperforms any 75ton Timber Wolf variant for ballistic build.


3) Missile build Timber Wolf is where it shines (GREAT missile hardpoint placement on top of its shoulder!), but still it can still be outclassed on paper:

~RFL-IIC-4: +10% Range. Additional +5% ATM Range. 4x Missile hard points. 2x Energy hard points. AMS. JJ. More slots for heat sink.

~TBR-S: 4x Missile hard points. 3x Energy hard points. No AMS. Has JJ!! Option to put in 1-2 ballistic weapons, probably at the cost of sacrificing some missile capability.


4) Therefore Timber Wolf missile build is the only competitive build, as compared to the later IIC era mechs, in this age of Set-of-8 quirks in early-2021.
Simply put, the energy & ballistic builds are not competitive; IIC era mechs are simply better.

SirSmokes, on 30 January 2021 - 07:34 AM, said:

Poor Timberwolf pretty much the most iconic Clan mech and it kind of meh

ImperialKnight, on 30 January 2021 - 07:45 AM, said:

You missed the boat. It was meta during the Clan invasion period. Now it's fallen behind due to the power creep.

It's still a very good mech, if people would just stop running Missiles on them

SirSmokes, on 30 January 2021 - 07:49 AM, said:

I was there for that yea it was a BEAST but the most iconic Clan mech should be meta it just should

Edited by w0qj, 30 January 2021 - 09:11 AM.

[FupDup]

Wolfos31, on 30 January 2021 - 05:59 AM, said:

The roadmap includes a number of balance passes in 2021. Now I'm keeping expectations light but there probably will be some changes to mech quirks and other attributes sometime this year.

I will believe it only when I see it.

ImperialKnight, on 30 January 2021 - 07:45 AM, said:

You missed the boat. It was meta during the Clan invasion period. Now it's fallen behind due to the power creep.

It's still a very good mech, if people would just stop running Missiles on them

The Mad Cat's main issue is that it has the agility of an assault mech without the corresponding armor/firepower. Give it normal heavy agility and it'll be mostly fixed.

The reason people turn them into LRM boats is because LRM boating is the only role where agility doesn't matter so much. If it tries to use proper direct-fire loadouts it tends to have a hard time because it can't twist or turn to save its life anymore. Same reason why most Nova Cats run LRMs.

Edited by FupDup, 30 January 2021 - 08:59 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

FupDup, on 30 January 2021 - 08:59 AM, said:

I will believe it only when I see it.


The Mad Cat's main issue is that it has the agility of an assault mech without the corresponding armor/firepower. Give it normal heavy agility and it'll be mostly fixed.

The reason people turn them into LRM boats is because LRM boating is the only role where agility doesn't matter so much. If it tries to use proper direct-fire loadouts it tends to have a hard time because it can't twist or turn to save its life anymore. Same reason why most Nova Cats run LRMs.

LRM 90 Nova Cat is a monster and it's 5 tons lighter. You are 100% spot on the problem. If they did that it would be really good mech

Edited by SirSmokes, 30 January 2021 - 09:16 AM.

[Gagis]

The problems with the Timber Wolf are not with quirks or hardpoints. It has decent enough hardpoints it does not need quirks to compensate for lack of them.

The problems are that firstltly it has such horrible agility it cannot effectively spread incoming damage by twisting its torso or move in and out of cover fast. Secondly, it has absolutely horrible hitboxes. The potruding nose is easy to pinpoint for when you want to kill one by center torso, or alternatively the missile boxes make the shoulders absolutely massive damage magnets.

The big missile boxes being HUGE targets is the reason why missile loadouts on the timby perform so badly and why the laser vomit loadout is comparatively so much better.

[FupDup]

SirSmokes, on 30 January 2021 - 09:14 AM, said:

LRM 90 Nova Cat is a monster and it's 5 tons lighter. You are 100% spot on the problem

I mean, the Nova Cat should be massively outgunning the Timber Wolf because it has a much smaller engine (12.5 tons lighter). That part is working as intended.

The issue is that both mechs don't have the agility expected from heavy mechs (but at least the Nova Cat does have assault-level firepower even if it's incredibly squishy).

Gagis, on 30 January 2021 - 09:18 AM, said:

The big missile boxes being HUGE targets is the reason why missile loadouts on the timby perform so badly and why the laser vomit loadout is comparatively so much better.

The thing is that the LRM boat derp builds can mitigate the hitbox issue by using indirect fire (also why the Nova Cat does it). The laser vomit Timbies have to expose themselves and subsequently get torn to ribbons even with the smaller ST hitboxes.

[letir]

Gagis, on 30 January 2021 - 09:18 AM, said:

The problems with the Timber Wolf are not with quirks or hardpoints. It has decent enough hardpoints it does not need quirks to compensate for lack of them.

The problems are that firstltly it has such horrible agility it cannot effectively spread incoming damage by twisting its torso or move in and out of cover fast. Secondly, it has absolutely horrible hitboxes.

Un-nerfed agility would be pretty good start for some Omnis.

[GuardDogg]

Wasn't the MadCat/Timberwolf designed to hold any kind of missiles? When I think of a Madcat/Timberwolf, I see the boxy ears.

[VonBruinwald]

Gagis, on 30 January 2021 - 09:18 AM, said:

the missile boxes make the shoulders absolutely massive damage magnets.

The big missile boxes being HUGE targets is the reason why missile loadouts on the timby perform so badly and why the laser vomit loadout is comparatively so much better.

The alternative option is to give it structure quirks in exchange for fixed missile boxes.

Personally, I'd prefer it that way, a Timberwolf without shoulder pods is like an Urbie going 100kph, in name only.

[FupDup]

GuardDogg, on 30 January 2021 - 10:04 AM, said:

Wasn't the MadCat/Timberwolf designed to hold any kind of missiles? When I think of a Madcat/Timberwolf, I see the boxy ears.

As an Omnimech is was designed to hold anything it has the tonnage and critical slots to fit in...

...But AFAIK every single canon variant has missiles in at least one side torso (TBR-A has lasers in the LT instead of missiles but everything else seems to have at least one launcher per ST).

Edit: After another glance at Sarna it looks like there is one no-missile variant in the Bounty Hunter.

Edited by FupDup, 30 January 2021 - 10:20 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

FupDup, on 30 January 2021 - 10:15 AM, said:

As an Omnimech is was designed to hold anything it has the tonnage and critical slots to fit in...

...But AFAIK every single canon variant has missiles in at least one side torso (TBR-A has lasers in the LT instead of missiles but everything else seems to have at least one launcher per ST).

That is what was post to make them great is they could do many different roles with pod changes

Edited by SirSmokes, 30 January 2021 - 10:18 AM.

[FupDup]

VonBruinwald, on 30 January 2021 - 10:06 AM, said:

The alternative option is to give it structure quirks in exchange for fixed missile boxes.

It doesn't make sense for mechs designed with modularity in mind to lug around huge unused boxes when they're carrying complete different loadouts. And really, the mech has side torso issues even when using purely direct-fire loadouts so I don't see any need to make it a trade of one or the other.

Also structure quirks usually kinda suck. They can be okay on a light or medium mech torso section because their base structure is so low (protect from rear damage), but on anything over 60+ tons it should probably be armor only (also arms and legs should always be armor, never structure because there's no tradeoff there).

That all being said I think the agility boost to match the EBJ/HBR/etc. should be tried before getting into durability quirks because agility will help mitigate the hitbox issues at least somewhat.

Edited by FupDup, 30 January 2021 - 10:27 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Structure is good for adding heat capacity in a pinch on bigger 'Mechs, not much else.

Armor is better in every other situation.

[VonBruinwald]

FupDup, on 30 January 2021 - 10:25 AM, said:

It doesn't make sense for mechs designed with modularity in mind to lug around huge unused boxes when they're carrying complete different loadouts.

It doesn't make sense if the mech isn't designed to carry missiles, but as you noted, in almost all its configuration those missile hard-points are put to use. So it could be that the designers intended for it to carry missiles there and put fixed boxes for "design reasons". Omni-tech doesn't necessarily mean you can put weapons anywhere you like, there's still going to be design considerations due to technical limitations.

Alternatively the fixed boxes were an oversight, but clan hubris doesn't allow for the admission of mistakes so they fill them with missiles to save face.

[FupDup]

VonBruinwald, on 30 January 2021 - 02:32 PM, said:

Omni-tech doesn't necessarily mean you can put weapons anywhere you like...

It does literally mean that. As long as you've got the slots and tonnage you can put it there.

You can even do stupid stuff like 30 Machine Guns or 40 ER Medium Lasers (slots permitting) if you want to melt yourself into a pile of slag (of course MWO can't allow this because it would be unbalanceable and impossible to model with dynamic geo).

[VonBruinwald]

FupDup, on 30 January 2021 - 02:37 PM, said:

It does literally mean that. As long as you've got the slots and tonnage you can put it there.

You can even do stupid stuff like 30 Machine Guns or 40 ER Medium Lasers (slots permitting) if you want to melt yourself into a pile of slag (of course MWO can't allow this because it would be unbalanceable and impossible to model with dynamic geo).

I didn't mean to say you can't equip weapons, I was talking with regards to the physical location on the mech.

There's a reason Timberwolves have box ears that isn't covered by rules (and likely hasn't even been touched on by lore). If there wasn't a reason I imagine the techs would quickly drop them down to reduce the target profile, or even go so far as mounting them under the armpits.


I was going to make each a single row but it looked ridiculous...

[FupDup]

VonBruinwald, on 30 January 2021 - 03:03 PM, said:

I didn't mean to say you can't equip weapons, I was talking with regards to the physical location on the mech.

There's a reason Timberwolves have box ears that isn't covered by rules (and likely hasn't even been touched on by lore). If there wasn't a reason I imagine the techs would quickly drop them down to reduce the target profile, or even go so far as mounting them under the armpits.


I was going to make each a single row but it looked ridiculous...

Visually speaking they put the boxes on the ears because they wanted it to look cool. Or maybe they thought that having a higher point of launch would improve Lurming ability, I guess.

Stuff like target profile and hitboxes didn't occur to the scientists who designed the mech because in their world everything was determined by dice roll. The rules didn't need to cover it just like they didn't cover anything else like dorsal guns on Marauders. It's just a part of the side torso.

[VonBruinwald]

FupDup, on 30 January 2021 - 03:09 PM, said:

Visually speaking they put the boxes on the ears because they wanted it to look cool. Or maybe they thought that having a higher point of launch would improve Lurming ability, I guess.

Stuff like target profile and hitboxes didn't occur to the scientists who designed the mech because in their world everything was determined by dice roll. The rules didn't need to cover it just like they didn't cover anything else like dorsal guns on Marauders. It's just a part of the side torso.

Well under that logic there's no reason not to lug around huge unused boxes when they're carrying complete different loadouts.

[FupDup]

VonBruinwald, on 30 January 2021 - 03:19 PM, said:

Well under that logic there's no reason not to lug around huge unused boxes when they're carrying complete different loadouts.

I'm talking about MWO where the boxes aren't used because of how we choose to customize our mechs.

In-universe the boxes almost always were used, excluding the Bounty Hunter variant.

[VonBruinwald]

FupDup, on 30 January 2021 - 03:24 PM, said:

I'm talking about MWO where the boxes aren't used because of how we choose to customize our mechs.

Well that's player choice, can't make everyone happy. Without structure/armour quirks, anybody who does use them basically has to live with ST bullet magnets. Which was one of gagis original complaints. If you're running laser vomit (meta) on a Timby there's far better mechs. So why not give a boon to the people who love the Timby for being what it is, an iconic mech with big ol' shoulder boxes included.

So the way I see it there's three avenues.

• Not have fixed boxes, no quirks (Current option)
  
• Have fixed SRM (smaller) hitboxes - add structure quirks
  
• Have fixed LRM (larger) hitboxes - add armour quirks

It might even be possible to tie the options to pods so the prime gets big boxes with armour by default, the D gets small boxes with structure, and the A gets no boxes and no quirks. Everyone's happy that way.