19 replies to this topic

[Cherge]

This is based on the roadmap they put up recently, with AMS being the only quarter 1 change with respect to PSR.

Basically any game where you take your rank seriously, it's based on winning and losing alone. Why is PGI so determined to do make PSR "work"? Because it's 12v12? Because it's soup queue? Then make it not soup queue. "But the population can't sustain that" Yeah well, the population won't sustain soup queue either at the rate things are going

Sure, they'll fix AMS, which is for sure busted right now. But PSR is still going to be PSR, basically an easily abusable system that will undoubtedly have multiple other avenues of abuse methods.

Edited by Cherge, 01 February 2021 - 08:21 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Cherge, on 01 February 2021 - 08:17 AM, said:

This is based on the roadmap they put up recently, with AMS being the only quarter 1 change with respect to PSR.

Basically any game where you take your rank seriously, it's based on winning and losing alone. Why is PGI so determined to do make PSR "work"? Because it's 12v12? Because it's soup queue? Then make it not soup queue. "But the population can't sustain that" Yeah well, the population won't sustain soup queue either at the rate things are going

Sure, they'll fix AMS, which is for right now. But PSR is still going to be PSR, basically an easily abusable system that will undoubtedly have multiple other avenues of abuse methods.

Please take matches back down to 8v8

Edited by SirSmokes, 01 February 2021 - 08:20 AM.

[Wolfos31]

If we're talking seriously about skill level then I'd say it should be based on K/D not W/L. While a skilled player will generally win more often than lose you have to contend with 11 other players on your team and 12 enemy players. Isn't the goal of a good MM to get you to a point where your W/L ratio is roughly 1?

But then folks will complain that a MM based on K/D ratio doesn't reward lights that scout or people who play objectives. Of course the current MM doesn't really reward those people as is because it's largely damage based.

I don't mind the PSR system as is. I think the MM challenges are largely down to low population and it's hard to know what would bring people back and retain them. I enjoy playing because I'm a huge BTech fan and the combat in MWO is rewarding. But I don't like the game modes much, nor do I have any interest in Solaris or Faction Play. Solaris because of the ridiculous tiers which split up the tiny player base way too much. FP because it has a pretty high barrier to entry especially if you're a solo player which I often am.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Wolfos31, on 01 February 2021 - 08:30 AM, said:

If we're talking seriously about skill level then I'd say it should be based on K/D not W/L. While a skilled player will generally win more often than lose you have to contend with 11 other players on your team and 12 enemy players. Isn't the goal of a good MM to get you to a point where your W/L ratio is roughly 1?

But then folks will complain that a MM based on K/D ratio doesn't reward lights that scout or people who play objectives. Of course the current MM doesn't really reward those people as is because it's largely damage based.

I don't mind the PSR system as is. I think the MM challenges are largely down to low population and it's hard to know what would bring people back and retain them. I enjoy playing because I'm a huge BTech fan and the combat in MWO is rewarding. But I don't like the game modes much, nor do I have any interest in Solaris or Faction Play. Solaris because of the ridiculous tiers which split up the tiny player base way too much. FP because it has a pretty high barrier to entry especially if you're a solo player which I often am.

KD is an AWFUL metric of skill in Mechwarrior Online you can do 99% of the damage to something then someone can walk up and tap it with single small laster and get the kill

[Wolfos31]

SirSmokes, on 01 February 2021 - 08:32 AM, said:

KD is an AWFUL metric of skill in Mechwarrior Online you can do 99% of the damage to something then someone can walk up and tap it with single small laster and get the kill

Fair point. I guess that's why we're using damage. Though it's annoying that a LRM build that spreads damage to every component can rank up vs PPFLD which wipes things out quickly.

[Vlad Ward]

Wolfos31, on 01 February 2021 - 08:37 AM, said:

Fair point. I guess that's why we're using damage. Though it's annoying that a LRM build that spreads damage to every component can rank up vs PPFLD which wipes things out quickly.

This is entirely the reason why I believe Match Score awarded for damage should be scaled based on the actual usefulness of the damage.

This can be computed using the c-bill value of the equipment stored in the component the damage is dealt to. We already know the game is tracking this because it's part of the Salvage Bonus calculation.

Using that framework, hits to components where an engine is stored would typically be worth the most points. Hits to components with powerful/high value weapons would be worth the next highest point value. Random hits to shield arms, shield side torsos, and legs would be worth the least.

Of course, if you actually do leg a 'Mech (which is useful) you still get the Component Destroyed bonus.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 01 February 2021 - 09:02 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Wolfos31, on 01 February 2021 - 08:37 AM, said:

Fair point. I guess that's why we're using damage. Though it's annoying that a LRM build that spreads damage to every component can rank up vs PPFLD which wipes things out quickly.

Point of LRM is to shred armor to make them easier targets for direct fire. A target gets pounded its armor get really weakened now when that heavy PPC build get a shot of crap now there a hole in that mech armor

Edited by SirSmokes, 01 February 2021 - 09:02 AM.

[VonBruinwald]

Wolfos31, on 01 February 2021 - 08:30 AM, said:

If we're talking seriously about skill level then I'd say it should be based on K/D not W/L. While a skilled player will generally win more often than lose you have to contend with 11 other players on your team and 12 enemy players. Isn't the goal of a good MM to get you to a point where your W/L ratio is roughly 1?

But then folks will complain that a MM based on K/D ratio doesn't reward lights that scout or people who play objectives. Of course the current MM doesn't really reward those people as is because it's largely damage based.

The problem with using K/D or any stat based on personal performance, including MS, is that in a team based game you can cheese it at the expense of the performance of the team. Classically by hiding at the back and using your team-mates as meat-shields.

W/L reflects your contribution to the teams performance, be it through kills, damage, objectives or even getting on comms and coordinating your teams efforts. If the sum your efforts don't help the team actually win then you're not going to have a high W/L.

[The pessimistic optimist]

VonBruinwald, on 01 February 2021 - 09:06 AM, said:

The problem with using K/D or any stat based on personal performance, including MS, is that in a team based game you can cheese it at the expense of the performance of the team. Classically by hiding at the back and using your team-mates as meat-shields.

W/L reflects your contribution to the teams performance, be it through kills, damage, objectives or even getting on comms and coordinating your teams efforts. If the sum your efforts don't help the team actually win then you're not going to have a high W/L.

If I had dime for everything that happened I be rich

[LordNothing]

player counts are actually up from last year. perhaps soup queue is working?

[Wolfos31]

LordNothing, on 01 February 2021 - 11:01 AM, said:

player counts are actually up from last year. perhaps soup queue is working?

I prefer soup queue myself. I get matches faster. I don't mind the impact of groups in the matches. Yeah sometimes they have an outsized impact on the match but that happened in group queue all the time anyway.

[LordNothing]

Vlad Ward, on 01 February 2021 - 08:59 AM, said:

This is entirely the reason why I believe Match Score awarded for damage should be scaled based on the actual usefulness of the damage.

This can be computed using the c-bill value of the equipment stored in the component the damage is dealt to. We already know the game is tracking this because it's part of the Salvage Bonus calculation.

Using that framework, hits to components where an engine is stored would typically be worth the most points. Hits to components with powerful/high value weapons would be worth the next highest point value. Random hits to shield arms, shield side torsos, and legs would be worth the least.

Of course, if you actually do leg a 'Mech (which is useful) you still get the Component Destroyed bonus.

this is a great idea.

id also add component assist and kmdds to components as well (cmdd). like if player a opens up a component and player b finishes it off. player b gets the component destroyed, player a gets the component assist and cmdd. this encourages going after targets of opportunity which in turn encourages team play.

to pay out for equipment damage, you can have crit bonuses for equipment destroyed. the value of which depends on the equipment. and you get them for destroying components containing said equipment. this rewards good target prioritization as taking out the targets with the best stuff would yield the highest rewards.

[Anomalocaris]

LordNothing, on 01 February 2021 - 11:01 AM, said:

player counts are actually up from last year. perhaps soup queue is working?

Player counts dropped steadily for 3 out of 4 months after soup queue was created. The only uptick was during the month of PSR reset.

We've only seen the recent player growth since October. Some think it is due to new Covid lockdowns. I assert it happened almost immediately after PGI announced they were "working on MWO" again and hired Daeron to shill for them.

Either way, to assert that Soup Queue is the reason for the player counts is pretty weakly supported.

[HolyGrail101]

Match score is based almost entirely off of Farming Mech's for components or Kills already, I would prefer scoring to be based off of participating in team play and solo ability. Ignoring support style play will keep exacerbating the issue, Capture and Assault mode are generally disregarded by players that would rather focus on their personal Stat's. PGI either needs get rid of every play mode outside of Skirmish in PUG play OR realize that PUG players also play Mech's other than Dual Heavy Gauss Victors.

Edited by HolyGrail101, 01 February 2021 - 12:06 PM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

HolyGrail101, on 01 February 2021 - 12:06 PM, said:

Match score is based almost entirely off of Farming Mech's for components or Kills already, I would prefer scoring to be based off of participating in team play and solo ability. Ignoring support style play will keep exacerbating the issue, Capture and Assault mode are generally disregarded by players that would rather focus on their personal Stat's. PGI either needs get rid of every play mode outside of Skirmish in PUG play OR realize that PUG players also play Mech's other than Dual Heavy Gauss Victors.

This is why I like them to over haul the game modes and rewards and incentive structures

Edited by SirSmokes, 01 February 2021 - 12:18 PM.

[Elizander]

HolyGrail101, on 01 February 2021 - 12:06 PM, said:

Match score is based almost entirely off of Farming Mech's for components or Kills already, I would prefer scoring to be based off of participating in team play and solo ability. Ignoring support style play will keep exacerbating the issue, Capture and Assault mode are generally disregarded by players that would rather focus on their personal Stat's. PGI either needs get rid of every play mode outside of Skirmish in PUG play OR realize that PUG players also play Mech's other than Dual Heavy Gauss Victors.

I actually hate farming components. I was most annoyed with 50 components destroyed events more than anything because I just try to kill the enemy outright and blowing off STs wastes my time/heat/ammo. 3 alphas to kill CT? Nah mate, you need to do 4 alphas, 2 on each ST. :/

[The pessimistic optimist]

Elizander, on 01 February 2021 - 01:33 PM, said:

I actually hate farming components. I was most annoyed with 50 components destroyed events more than anything because I just try to kill the enemy outright and blowing off STs wastes my time/heat/ammo. 3 alphas to kill CT? Nah mate, you need to do 4 alphas, 2 on each ST. :/

I always just go for quickest kill I can get as well. Sometimes if a mech has danger amount of fire power I may go for the side to reduce the damage it can do

Edited by SirSmokes, 01 February 2021 - 01:46 PM.

[PocketYoda]

Cherge, on 01 February 2021 - 08:17 AM, said:

Basically any game where you take your rank seriously

Hahaha Join an Army.

HolyGrail101, on 01 February 2021 - 12:06 PM, said:

Match score is based almost entirely off of Farming Mech's for components or Kills already, I would prefer scoring to be based off of participating in team play and solo ability. Ignoring support style play will keep exacerbating the issue, Capture and Assault mode are generally disregarded by players that would rather focus on their personal Stat's. PGI either needs get rid of every play mode outside of Skirmish in PUG play OR realize that PUG players also play Mech's other than Dual Heavy Gauss Victors.

But then customers would have to think and play smarter.. I'm not sure the population could take that.. especially when most are half a sleep or drunk of their heads..

Edited by Samial, 01 February 2021 - 09:00 PM.

[Cichol Balor]

This is why PSR needs to be based on wins and losses more than anything else. if you're playing well and helping your team you will win more than you lose. No matter what team you get put on your the only constant. you are just as likely to be on the crap team as the good team with only you pulling them up or down.

HolyGrail101, on 01 February 2021 - 12:06 PM, said:

Match score is based almost entirely off of Farming Mech's for components or Kills already, I would prefer scoring to be based off of participating in team play and solo ability. Ignoring support style play will keep exacerbating the issue, Capture and Assault mode are generally disregarded by players that would rather focus on their personal Stat's. PGI either needs get rid of every play mode outside of Skirmish in PUG play OR realize that PUG players also play Mech's other than Dual Heavy Gauss Victors.

Duel heavy gauss is actually bad for PSR if you are good at it because you will core out mechs with minimal damage. your score is overwhelmingly dependent on damage done with the exception of AMS. If you want to farm your best bet outside the ams kit fox is an LRM boat.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Cichol Balor, on 02 February 2021 - 12:11 PM, said:

This is why PSR needs to be based on wins and losses more than anything else. if you're playing well and helping your team you will win more than you lose. No matter what team you get put on your the only constant. you are just as likely to be on the crap team as the good team with only you pulling them up or down.




Duel heavy gauss is actually bad for PSR if you are good at it because you will core out mechs with minimal damage. your score is overwhelmingly dependent on damage done with the exception of AMS. If you want to farm your best bet outside the ams kit fox is an LRM boat.

Seen more people farming damage with guass or PPC setting way back and are last mech standing freah at end of the match then LRM mechs sitting back not helping the team. You are right it about team effort and PSR

Edited by SirSmokes, 02 February 2021 - 01:21 PM.