104 replies to this topic

[FLG 01]

Willard Phule, on 21 February 2021 - 03:51 AM, said:

Hell, if they'd stopped the clock 2 years later, Clans would have RACs as well.

Since the Clans introduced the RAC/2 and RAC/5 in 3104, that is just not true. They merely started development in 3069.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rotary_AC/2
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rotary_AC/5
(don't let the poorly worded RAC main page fool you, read the actual canon source; in that case IO sourcebook)

In fact, Clans miss ER Flamers, Heavy Flamers, and LHS. That's it.
https://mwomercs.com...missing-in-mwo/

A bunch of flamers is hardly worth making such a fuss. Like it or not, the stuff you want is straight Jihad and later. And by that time, the IS also comes around with a boatload of new equipment.

[FupDup]

I think there is a general issue with the lack of Clan toys in BT. The reason for this is of course because the IS has to constantly make imitations of Clan tech that equal it in one way but are inferior in other ways, rather than just being equal. But still, I wish CGL would add some more stuff for the Clams. I even have a few crappy ideas of my own for that...

[FupDup]

FLG 01, on 23 February 2021 - 01:28 PM, said:

In fact, Clans miss ER Flamers, Heavy Flamers, and LHS. That's it.
https://mwomercs.com...missing-in-mwo/

A bunch of flamers is hardly worth making such a fuss. Like it or not, the stuff you want is straight Jihad and later. And by that time, the IS also comes around with a boatload of new equipment.

Aren't Chemical Lasers available by now?

[FLG 01]

FupDup, on 23 February 2021 - 01:41 PM, said:

Aren't Chemical Lasers available by now?

Prototypes only (3059). The regular production models were available in 3083. Unfortunately Sarna often mixes up prototype and production type introduction dates. MWO generally, one a notable exception, adheres to the production date.
Prototypes would be fun but there'd be so many of them...

I mean, I would not mind new weapons, I just don't think it is fair to accuse PGI of being heavily biased when there is no factual basis for it.
And I would certainly think about adding new weapons if they add to the gameplay.

[Willard Phule]

FLG 01, on 23 February 2021 - 01:28 PM, said:

Since the Clans introduced the RAC/2 and RAC/5 in 3104, that is just not true. They merely started development in 3069.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rotary_AC/2
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rotary_AC/5
(don't let the poorly worded RAC main page fool you, read the actual canon source; in that case IO sourcebook)

In fact, Clans miss ER Flamers, Heavy Flamers, and LHS. That's it.
https://mwomercs.com...missing-in-mwo/

A bunch of flamers is hardly worth making such a fuss. Like it or not, the stuff you want is straight Jihad and later. And by that time, the IS also comes around with a boatload of new equipment.

True enough, however, it reads that Clan Coyote (the original developers of the Omnimech as well) had it in 3069.

Quote

Clan Diamond Shark's engineers created their own Clan-tech version of the RAC/2, starting development in 3069, producing prototypes in 3073, and finally starting line production in 3104 with the Clan-RAC/2 becoming widely available by 3145

Much as all of those things the IS got during the "Civil War" update weren't necessarily available to every house in the Inner Sphere at the same time, the same can be said for the Clans with every single upgrade they ever made, beginning with the CERPPC developed by Clan Wolverine. Difference is, tech flows through the clans due to trials of possession to obtain the new toy whereas in the Inner Sphere, advantages are guarded dearly....with the exception of the Grey Death memory core equipment, which was provided to the other houses during the invasion. Either way, if it was available to Clan Coyote, it should arguably be included about the same time as the Civil War update, as there is no clan equivalent and PGI is all about "balance."

That doesn't address the Hyper Assault Gauss, either.

Quote

The [/color]Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle is a variation on the Gauss Rifle developed by Clan Hell's Horses in [/color]3068. Hoping to stay ahead of the increasing technological curve, they apparently used similar design principles to the Lyran Alliance's Heavy Gauss Rifle. To compensate for its drawbacks, however, Horse scientists used a series of capacitors and launching tubes to fire a multitude of smaller-caliber Gauss slugs. The resulting high rate of fire, akin almost to Rotary Autocannons, made these weapons very effective against battle armor and [/color]Combat Vehicles

Note, 3068. Again, one year after they stopped the clock. I guess they just didn't want to figure out how to do an MRM with a gauss mechanic, because that's ultimately what it is.

And, also Anti Personnel Gauss.

Quote

Developed in 3069 by [/color]Clan Jade Falcon, the Anti-Personnel Gauss Rifle is a scaled-down Gauss Rifle meant for work against conventional infantry and battle armor. While functioning similarly to needler weapons, it fires metal flechettes at supersonic speeds, allowing for additional penetration against heavier armor, unlike traditional needler systems. Though the weapon began life as a battle armor weapon, it was soon adopted by heavier units throughout the Clans

Here again, just 2 years after the clock stopped and this time developed by a front line clan. I guess they didn't want to bother to code it. That's the only logical explanation at this point.

FLG 01, on 23 February 2021 - 01:49 PM, said:

Prototypes only (3059). The regular production models were available in 3083. Unfortunately Sarna often mixes up prototype and production type introduction dates. MWO generally, one a notable exception, adheres to the production date.
Prototypes would be fun but there'd be so many of them...

I mean, I would not mind new weapons, I just don't think it is fair to accuse PGI of being heavily biased when there is no factual basis for it.
And I would certainly think about adding new weapons if they add to the gameplay.

Not according to Sarna.

Quote

In 3059, the [/color]Clan Hell's Horses Scientist and Technician Castes received a mandate from their Khan: Find a way to make lasers that didn't need power amplifiers. With the preponderance of combat vehicles in their Touman, the Hell's Horses Khans wanted to devote more vehicle tonnage to weapons and armor instead of the power amplifiers required by units lacking fusion engines. The scientists and technicians weren't able to find any way to meet their Khans instructions until one of them stumbled across the ancient accounts of chemical lasers. Though the chemical processes still required toxic chemicals, improvements in materials technology allowed the Hell's Horses Scientists and Techs to create an improved lasing chamber that could accept "shells" that contained the toxic chemicals and isolated them from the crew. These "chemical shells" were then mated to an ammunition handling system derived from autocannons long used by the Horses, allowing the chemical laser systems to fire a beam of laser energy at a target without requiring a fusion engine or power amplifiers.
The chemical laser was deemed a success by the Khans, and production of Small, Medium, and Large variants started immediately. Though these chemical lasers have the performance profile of standard Inner Sphere laser systems and can actually run out of ammunition, they can be refitted onto Internal Combustion Engine or Fuel Cell powered vehicles without requiring additional power amplifiers, and can be equipped on ProtoMechs without counting against their Heat Capacity. In combat, the chemical lasers have more in common with autocannon or other ballistic weapons than fusion powered lasers, including the fact that they can't be used in strafing attacks.^[13]
There is currently not an Extended Range, Pulse, Heavy or Micro-sized version of the chemical laser.

Being "dubbed a success by the Khans" does not mean experimental.


(Note...cleaning up that formatting after pasting from Sarna is a pain. Remind me to never do that again.)

Edited by Willard Phule, 23 February 2021 - 03:40 PM.

[Darion Rothgarr]

Precision AC/2, 5 & 10 - As per normal autocannon, except the shell can course correct toward the target some, making it strike more often at the expense of less focused targeting and fewer rounds per ton. Since we can't get ammo switching, may as well just make a new cannon that only fires that ammo

Hyper Velocity AC2, 5 & 10 - Slightly heavier IS autocannon that fire hypervelocity shells. Higher Projectile speeds, slightly better range at the expense of more muzzle flash and more heat and fewer rounds.

[Willard Phule]

Darion Rothgarr, on 23 February 2021 - 07:09 PM, said:

Precision AC/2, 5 & 10 - As per normal autocannon, except the shell can course correct toward the target some, making it strike more often at the expense of less focused targeting and fewer rounds per ton. Since we can't get ammo switching, may as well just make a new cannon that only fires that ammo

Hyper Velocity AC2, 5 & 10 - Slightly heavier IS autocannon that fire hypervelocity shells. Higher Projectile speeds, slightly better range at the expense of more muzzle flash and more heat and fewer rounds.

Sweet idea, but if we're going to add non-canon equipment, how about Streak-UAC-LBX ACs? LBX autocannons that pump out two rounds for one and they track on locks like LRMs and Streaks.

[FLG 01]

Willard Phule, on 23 February 2021 - 03:33 PM, said:

True enough, however, it reads that Clan Coyote (the original developers of the Omnimech as well) had it in 3069.

Which is wrong, and has been corrected on the CRAC/2 and CRAC/5 pages. Sarna is a fan wiki, not a canon source, and as such it sometimes gets things wrong. It frequently mixed up (regular) production and prototype dates.

Sarna is not meant to support any pre-made theory by jumping at every wording that might somehow be useful. You should read it with an open mind, and when in doubt, use actual canonical publications.

Here is the canon source on the CRAC e.g., Interstellar Operations:




And on the Chemical Lasers:

Spoiler

Willard Phule, on 24 February 2021 - 06:42 AM, said:

Sweet idea, but if we're going to add non-canon equipment

HVACs and Precision Ammo are canon in Battletech. In fact, the latter is even in widespread use by 3066. HVACs are prototypes during the Civil War-era.

Spoiler

[FupDup]

Willard Phule, on 24 February 2021 - 06:42 AM, said:

Sweet idea, but if we're going to add non-canon equipment, how about Streak-UAC-LBX ACs? LBX autocannons that pump out two rounds for one and they track on locks like LRMs and Streaks.

I was thinking more along the lines of an Improved AP Heavy Advanced Ultra Rotary Binary Variable-Speed Plasma Tactical Streak Hyper-Velocity Hyper-Assault Extended-Range Enhanced Chemical Snub-Nose X-Laser Autocannon Multi-Missile 42069.

....Or maybe just something like an IS laser between the ML and LL. That would be nice too. Pretty often IS mechs have too much tonnage for MLs but not enough for LLs.

[Willard Phule]

FLG 01, on 24 February 2021 - 09:18 AM, said:

Which is wrong, and has been corrected on the CRAC/2 and CRAC/5 pages. Sarna is a fan wiki, not a canon source, and as such it sometimes gets things wrong. It frequently mixed up (regular) production and prototype dates.

Sarna is not meant to support any pre-made theory by jumping at every wording that might somehow be useful. You should read it with an open mind, and when in doubt, use actual canonical publications.

Here is the canon source on the CRAC e.g., Interstellar Operations:




And on the Chemical Lasers:

Spoiler

HVACs and Precision Ammo are canon in Battletech. In fact, the latter is even in widespread use by 3066. HVACs are prototypes during the Civil War-era.

Spoiler

Ok, so CRACs come out 6 years after the Civil War update clock stopped instead of 2. It still makes you wonder why a company so devoted to "balance" would bother to code something like the RAC and only make it available to one side. It still doesn't address the HAG or AP Gauss.

And it looks to me like the chemical lasers were availble BEFORE the Civil War update clock stop at 3067. I could be wrong, but when I count on my fingers, 3059 seems to come before 3067.

We both know what precision ammunition is vs what you'd end up seeing here. It's a modification to a dice roll on TT. Here....it's specialty ammunition and therefore beyond the coder's abilities.

FupDup, on 24 February 2021 - 01:46 PM, said:

I was thinking more along the lines of an Improved AP Heavy Advanced Ultra Rotary Binary Variable-Speed Plasma Tactical Streak Hyper-Velocity Hyper-Assault Extended-Range Enhanced Chemical Snub-Nose X-Laser Autocannon Multi-Missile 42069.

....Or maybe just something like an IS laser between the ML and LL. That would be nice too. Pretty often IS mechs have too much tonnage for MLs but not enough for LLs.

I was thinking maybe a Clan Streak ER PPC. You know, something you wait for a lock for then just fire and let it hit on it's own like LRMs. Or, perish the thought.....Streak CERPPC with a UAC type operation.

[FLG 01]

Willard Phule, on 24 February 2021 - 02:06 PM, said:

Ok, so CRACs come out 6 years after the Civil War update clock stopped instead of 2. It still makes you wonder why a company so devoted to "balance" would bother to code something like the RAC and only make it available to one side. It still doesn't address the HAG or AP Gauss.

And it looks to me like the chemical lasers were availble BEFORE the Civil War update clock stop at 3067. I could be wrong, but when I count on my fingers, 3059 seems to come before 3067.

Please, once more: you are refering to the PROTOTYPES.

PGI goes by the regular production date. CRACs were regularly produced since 3104; Chemical Lasers since 3083. That's both after 3067.

PGI does not do prototypes. And if they did, you could say hello to even more IS equipment. Want a short list of operational prototypes used by the IS before 3067? That's Blazers, LACs, HVACs (which you somehow did not know), Apollo MRM, Improved Heavy Gauss (yeah, let's see how much you like this), Bombast Lasers, X-Pulse Lasers, PPC capacitators, and more.

Instead of flooding the game with a boatload of prototype weaponry, PGI drew a line in the sand and said only regular production stuff from 3067 and before. That is a sensible approach.
The exception is the L-AMS, but they were prototypes for both IS and Clan tech.

[Willard Phule]

FLG 01, on 24 February 2021 - 02:23 PM, said:

Please, once more: you are refering to the PROTOTYPES.

PGI goes by the regular production date. CRACs were regularly produced since 3104; Chemical Lasers since 3083. That's both after 3067.

PGI does not do prototypes. And if they did, you could say hello to even more IS equipment. Want a short list of operational prototypes used by the IS before 3067? That's Blazers, LACs, HVACs (which you somehow did not know), Apollo MRM, Improved Heavy Gauss (yeah, let's see how much you like this), Bombast Lasers, X-Pulse Lasers, PPC capacitators, and more.

Instead of flooding the game with a boatload of prototype weaponry, PGI drew a line in the sand and said only regular production stuff from 3067 and before. That is a sensible approach.
The exception is the L-AMS, but they were prototypes for both IS and Clan tech.

Neither the HAG or AP Gauss were "prototypes" by 3069. They were in regular use by the Clans by 3069. HAGs in use by Hell's Horses, which weren't a front line clan with territory in the Inner Sphere, and the AP Gauss by the Jade Falcons which were.

And BOTH could have been easily coded when they did the update. The HAG is an MRM on a gauss principle, AP Gauss holds a HMG slot with SRM range. But, to play along, here's what I got from Sarna, which is closer to accurate than anything PGI has ever done.

Snub PPC - Shows the date available as 3067, but specifically states it was only available to the Draconis Combine at that time. That's an important point, since PGI is considering something "experimental" until it's available to the entire faction.

Light PPC - 3067 and Draconis Combine, again.

Heavy PPC - Availble 3067, Draconis Combine only yet again.

RAC 2 and RAC 5 - 3062 and Federated Suns.

Light Gauss is good. Introduced 3056 by FWL. By 3067, it's all over the IS.

Heavy Gauss is available to the Lyrans in 3061. Draconis and FWL, 3066. Federated Suns, 3067. Liao has no entry for ever having access to it.

MRMs were available in 3058, but only to the Draconis Combine.

Do you see where this is going? It seems to me that if it's IS tech, then one availability is good enough for all factions to have access to it. But, when it's Clan, then it has to go by when it was in regular use to all Clans. Seems like a double standard to me, but ultimately based on PGI's track record....it's far easier to understand when seen in the light of what they can and cannot code.

NOTE: The HVACs, according to Sarna, it is listed as IS Experimental as the Tech Base and specifically mentions that it was only avaiable to the Capellans. Now, being available to only one House might be a reason they didn't bother with it, but if that were true, quite a few things on the list should have been limited to specific houses as they were not in full common usage at the time.

How many other Houses use MRMs besides the DC in 3067? That's the real kicker there.

Edited by Willard Phule, 25 February 2021 - 06:03 AM.

[Grus]

Can we throw in some Word of Blake mechs too?

[Y E O N N E]

Grus, on 25 February 2021 - 11:02 AM, said:

Can we throw in some Word of Blake mechs too?

Only if it's a Toyama.

[TheArisen]

Yes to more weapons and equipment. More options means more builds, etc. And tbh while the timeline is nice in it's way, I think making an exception of a year or two and allowing prototypes is fine as again, they'll add more flavor to the game.

[FLG 01]

TheArisen, on 25 February 2021 - 07:52 PM, said:

Yes to more weapons and equipment. More options means more builds, etc. And tbh while the timeline is nice in it's way, I think making an exception of a year or two and allowing prototypes is fine as again, they'll add more flavor to the game.

Sure! The thing is it would be hard to choose which ones to take. But then, every choice will be called biased by ... some people, even if based on sound logic.
Why not?

I have been wanting the Blazer forever...
https://mwomercs.com...n-2016-edition/

So I am not against new weapons, to make that clear. I merely understand PGI's decision not to include weaponry that had prototype status in 3067, seeing it is not the result of some unfair bias against *insert favourite faction*.

Willard Phule, on 25 February 2021 - 05:58 AM, said:

How many other Houses use MRMs besides the DC in 3067? That's the real kicker there.

All of them produce Mechs with MRM well before 3067:

Lyran Alliance (Coventry: Firestarter Omni; Loburg: Thanatos), Federated Commonwealth (Crofton: Thanatos), SIC/Capellan Confederation (Warlock: Helios), Free Worlds League (Oliver: Chimera), and Mercenaries (Northwind: Black Watch).
With the exception of the FWL, they all supply their respective militaries.

That is not overly surprising since DCMS cooperated a lot with the other IS militaries in preparation for Bulldog and Serpent.

-

Edited by FLG 01, 26 February 2021 - 05:47 PM.

[FupDup]

The name "Binary Laser Cannon" sounds like the signature move of an anime character.

I wants it. I needs it.

But seriously, IS laser builds already have to deal with lower damage per weapon than their Clammer counterparts, and since they often have fewer hardpoints they get double-shafted since they can't even spam the low-damage weapons (looking at you Grand Dragon). The Blazer would help a lot with this.

And it just sounds really cool.

[TheArisen]

FupDup, on 26 February 2021 - 05:58 PM, said:

The name "Binary Laser Cannon" sounds like the signature move of an anime character.

I wants it. I needs it.

But seriously, IS laser builds already have to deal with lower damage per weapon than their Clammer counterparts, and since they often have fewer hardpoints they get double-shafted since they can't even spam the low-damage weapons (looking at you Grand Dragon). The Blazer would help a lot with this.

And it just sounds really cool.

Yeah both Binary & Blazer should be considered needs imo. Binary as a XL laser & Blazer as a charge up laser

[FupDup]

TheArisen, on 26 February 2021 - 09:16 PM, said:

Yeah both Binary & Blazer should be considered needs imo. Binary as a XL laser & Blazer as a charge up laser

Blazer and Binary Laser Cannon are the same weapon tho?

I think you mean the Bombast Laser for a charge-up laser.

[MechaBattler]

Just add everything. Don't even have to add the models. Screw the balance for a few months. Let's just have as much variety as possible!