615 replies to this topic

[Lemon Haze]

Navid A1, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

Here is the link to weapon change suggestions that were brought up by the "gulag" (a group of comp, casual, veteran and new MWO players)

Weapon changes: https://i.imgur.com/7p8TIrU.png






vs Live stats: https://i.imgur.com/rEh9bJ2.png




In accordance with the above weapon changes these modifications to mech quirks would be required:
https://www.dropbox....11_30.docx?dl=0




Mech agility increase across the board, according to this proposal:
https://docs.google....#gid=1508912275



Also... Jump Jets:

• Current system:

• Solution:

MASC:

• Reduce MASC fill-rate by 50% (from 0.09 to 0.045), leading to double active time
  
• Reduce accel/decel boost to x1.5 (instead of x 2)
  
• Reduce reticle shake and spread to 33% of current amount (-66%reduction)
  
• Increase redline threshold to 85 (from 75)

Full proposal including the above mentioned weapon changes and other aspects, like mech mobility and Jump jets: https://www.dropbox....AG_v2.pptx?dl=0


Will update this post if something changes.

go for it!

[xLUPOx]

Navid A1, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

Here is the link to weapon change suggestions that were brought up by the "gulag" (a group of comp, casual, veteran and new MWO players)

Weapon changes: https://i.imgur.com/7p8TIrU.png






vs Live stats: https://i.imgur.com/rEh9bJ2.png




In accordance with the above weapon changes these modifications to mech quirks would be required:
https://www.dropbox....11_30.docx?dl=0




Mech agility increase across the board, according to this proposal:
https://docs.google....#gid=1508912275



Also... Jump Jets:

• Current system:

• Solution:

MASC:

• Reduce MASC fill-rate by 50% (from 0.09 to 0.045), leading to double active time
  
• Reduce accel/decel boost to x1.5 (instead of x 2)
  
• Reduce reticle shake and spread to 33% of current amount (-66%reduction)
  
• Increase redline threshold to 85 (from 75)

Full proposal including the above mentioned weapon changes and other aspects, like mech mobility and Jump jets: https://www.dropbox....AG_v2.pptx?dl=0


Will update this post if something changes.

+1 for the gulag

[ghost1e]

Navid A1, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

Here is the link to weapon change suggestions that were brought up by the "gulag" (a group of comp, casual, veteran and new MWO players)

Weapon changes: https://i.imgur.com/7p8TIrU.png






vs Live stats: https://i.imgur.com/rEh9bJ2.png




In accordance with the above weapon changes these modifications to mech quirks would be required:
https://www.dropbox....11_30.docx?dl=0




Mech agility increase across the board, according to this proposal:
https://docs.google....#gid=1508912275



Also... Jump Jets:

• Current system:

• Solution:

MASC:

• Reduce MASC fill-rate by 50% (from 0.09 to 0.045), leading to double active time
  
• Reduce accel/decel boost to x1.5 (instead of x 2)
  
• Reduce reticle shake and spread to 33% of current amount (-66%reduction)
  
• Increase redline threshold to 85 (from 75)

Full proposal including the above mentioned weapon changes and other aspects, like mech mobility and Jump jets: https://www.dropbox....AG_v2.pptx?dl=0


Will update this post if something changes.

DO IT.

This is honestly your last chance at getting the game right...

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Navid A1, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

MASC:

• Reduce MASC fill-rate by 50% (from 0.09 to 0.045), leading to double active time
  
• Reduce accel/decel boost to x1.5 (instead of x 2)
  
• Reduce reticle shake and spread to 33% of current amount (-66%reduction)
  
• Increase redline threshold to 85 (from 75)

TheUltimateGhost, on 21 February 2021 - 06:39 AM, said:

DOOO EEEET!

Don't gimp the MASC Accel/Decel!

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 21 February 2021 - 07:15 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

KursedVixen, on 21 February 2021 - 02:15 AM, said:

The health points for small and medium lasers don't make sense to me IS small and medium lasers have 7.5 health but the Clan ones have only 5 despite being the same size???? i think, again that all lasers probes and targeting computers of the same size should have the same health.... the only outliar i see here for this system is the IS Large laser which is larger in slot size than the Clan laser so yeah needs a little more health than the clan Large because it's gonna be a little easier to crit.

I see unexplanable disparities like this all over weapons/ components probes ecm and targeting computers... if they are the SAME slot size they should have the same health and Even when they are bigger they get a MASSIVe boost to Hp on the IS size (look at the heavy large laser or any weapon) i think that's kinda unfair clan already got their damage nerfed to lasers why do we need to pay in durability as well?


Also i agree that clan uac's should fire single slugs per tap... that or all Uac's should fire burst.

even the clan Ac's fire in burst except the 2. (that makes no sense)

Not really it make more sense form a lore stand point they reduced their ac weight by redesigning them to fire mulity rounds to keep the same damage. They use a different type of ammo form IS but do the same level of damage

RenegadeMaster88, on 21 February 2021 - 05:56 AM, said:

Make LRM minimum range lower when in Direct fire mode, this should encourage brawling over hiding and the back and spamming.

This is not a problem stick with the team use the range finder and be aware of your surroundings and your team and the enemy team. Learn the back up shuffle and put your direct fire buddy's between you end the enemy. The closer the better if gives enemy team less time to run for cover. Have back up weapons

Edited by SirSmokes, 21 February 2021 - 08:51 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 21 February 2021 - 07:14 AM, said:

Don't gimp the MASC Accel/Decel!

I must say though. Everything else in Gulag is pretty much on point... I'd like to see cERPPCs have their cooldown reduced to match the IS and be balanced in some other waaay, but...

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 21 February 2021 - 08:25 AM.

[East Indy]

Nothing is more comprehensive or informed than the group effort Navid posted. It encourages more choices in the MechLab and variety in matches, and doesn't come across as a wishlist.

Implement it, and let's see where the game is.

[Blathlok]

Make Light Gauss, Light PPC, Snub PPC, and Flamer worth equipping.

PS
Bring back scouting

[FupDup]

The Gulag stuff has a number of good ideas and also some that don't seem so good. Just looking at the proposed quirks sheet has me really confused. They're giving more armor and other quirks to already good mechs like the Huntsman, Mad Cat Mk. II and Blood Asp but not making any quirk changes at all to the C-Bill Quickdraws? Dafuq. It seems like currently good mechs are getting better quirk changes than currently bad mechs like the Uziel and Thanatos. Why is the Hellbringer of all mechs getting armor while Catapults only see a nerf to the K2? And a Trebuchet even gets nerfed too.

What kind of priorities do you have that you buff the Mad Cat Mk. II but nerf a Trebuchet? The Black Lanner isn't even mentioned in the whole quirks sheet! You're buffing Hellbringers but giving no changes to Black Lanners? No changes to Thunderbolts?

Every time I look at this sheet I keep seeing more massive snafus pop out at me.

https://www.dropbox....11_30.docx?dl=0


Beyond the quirks wonkiness I'm also concerned that boosting the agility of all heavies and assaults by such large numbers will negatively impact weight class balance by reducing the mobility advantage that lights and mediums are supposed to have over the big bois. No, boosting the light and medium agility won't change that because they'll still be just as large of targets that are now a bit easier to track with enhanced assault agility.

Edited by FupDup, 21 February 2021 - 09:16 AM.

[B o S S]

Navid A1, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

Here is the link to weapon change suggestions that were brought up by the "gulag" (a group of comp, casual, veteran and new MWO players)

Weapon changes: https://i.imgur.com/7p8TIrU.png






vs Live stats: https://i.imgur.com/rEh9bJ2.png




In accordance with the above weapon changes these modifications to mech quirks would be required:
https://www.dropbox....11_30.docx?dl=0




Mech agility increase across the board, according to this proposal:
https://docs.google....#gid=1508912275



Also... Jump Jets:

• Current system:

• Solution:

MASC:

• Reduce MASC fill-rate by 50% (from 0.09 to 0.045), leading to double active time
  
• Reduce accel/decel boost to x1.5 (instead of x 2)
  
• Reduce reticle shake and spread to 33% of current amount (-66%reduction)
  
• Increase redline threshold to 85 (from 75)

Full proposal including the above mentioned weapon changes and other aspects, like mech mobility and Jump jets: https://www.dropbox....AG_v2.pptx?dl=0


Will update this post if something changes.

GOOD!!!

[MisterSomaru]

Navid A1, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

Here is the link to weapon change suggestions that were brought up by the "gulag" (a group of comp, casual, veteran and new MWO players)

Weapon changes: https://i.imgur.com/7p8TIrU.png






vs Live stats: https://i.imgur.com/rEh9bJ2.png




In accordance with the above weapon changes these modifications to mech quirks would be required:
https://www.dropbox....11_30.docx?dl=0




Mech agility increase across the board, according to this proposal:
https://docs.google....#gid=1508912275



Also... Jump Jets:

• Current system:

• Solution:

MASC:

• Reduce MASC fill-rate by 50% (from 0.09 to 0.045), leading to double active time
  
• Reduce accel/decel boost to x1.5 (instead of x 2)
  
• Reduce reticle shake and spread to 33% of current amount (-66%reduction)
  
• Increase redline threshold to 85 (from 75)

Full proposal including the above mentioned weapon changes and other aspects, like mech mobility and Jump jets: https://www.dropbox....AG_v2.pptx?dl=0


Will update this post if something changes.

Lot of work went into testing these changes, and I mean a LOT. There were a lot of discussions and back and forths, data crunching, and tests. I do believe that these changes are the best way forward for now, and additional tweaking can be done with results of in game data.

[ACH75]

Navid A1, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

Here is the link to weapon change suggestions that were brought up by the "gulag" (a group of comp, casual, veteran and new MWO players)

Weapon changes: https://i.imgur.com/7p8TIrU.png






vs Live stats: https://i.imgur.com/rEh9bJ2.png




In accordance with the above weapon changes these modifications to mech quirks would be required:
https://www.dropbox....11_30.docx?dl=0




Mech agility increase across the board, according to this proposal:
https://docs.google....#gid=1508912275



Also... Jump Jets:

• Current system:

• Solution:

MASC:

• Reduce MASC fill-rate by 50% (from 0.09 to 0.045), leading to double active time
  
• Reduce accel/decel boost to x1.5 (instead of x 2)
  
• Reduce reticle shake and spread to 33% of current amount (-66%reduction)
  
• Increase redline threshold to 85 (from 75)

Full proposal including the above mentioned weapon changes and other aspects, like mech mobility and Jump jets: https://www.dropbox....AG_v2.pptx?dl=0


Will update this post if something changes.

Finally The Right Way...

[JPeiper]

I'd like to ask you to be very carefull buffing micro,sm lasers and mg's. I can see your point when mounting these in a mid/heavy/assault but if playing these do you want lights blowing out your back in no time? You'll then have 3/4 guys in lights with these buffed weapons running around your legs and no way to hit 'em. This is the only game mechanic that leaves me frustrated and playing Fallout 76 the rest of the day. (yes, that bad) . I can live with a player sniping with a gauss and no charge up time -I'll get to cover and still be viable, having a light around my legs is the end...I'm taking a time out to type this as it happened in the last 3 games.Please don't make it worse .

[Alreech]

KursedVixen, on 21 February 2021 - 05:39 AM, said:

Oh yeah i'm gonna limit myself to 5+ mechs...

to be honest, you need 2 Mechs of the same type and with the same loadout for MWO Quickplay, so you can use a second Mech in Quickplay after leaving a match after death.
Trying out different builds or grinding up XPs on new Mechs ruin your damage stats and preventing Tier increase.

Quote

don't care about replacing weapons? that's really wasteful and even the clans wanted to reduce waste as much as possible in lore if we had maintaincne and replacment cost in effect that would be a really big problem....

Clans don't attack their enemys infrastructure like factorys, instead they do a trial of posession.
So replacing a damaged weapon isn't a problem.
Also the "reduce waste" doesn't apply to the clan military.
No clan warrior cares about the worker doing crunch time to support the military.

Quote

Actually Clan Uac's and lasers have a longer duration which means you have to face the enemy longer....

Yeah, PGI tried to balance the clans op tech somehow.
Didn't work in Quickplay with it's mixed tech teams.

[xAndy199]

FupDup, on 21 February 2021 - 09:01 AM, said:

The Gulag stuff has a number of good ideas and also some that don't seem so good. Just looking at the proposed quirks sheet has me really confused. They're giving more armor and other quirks to already good mechs like the Huntsman, Mad Cat Mk. II and Blood Asp but not making any quirk changes at all to the C-Bill Quickdraws? Dafuq. It seems like currently good mechs are getting better quirk changes than currently bad mechs like the Uziel and Thanatos. Why is the Hellbringer of all mechs getting armor while Catapults only see a nerf to the K2? And a Trebuchet even gets nerfed too.

What kind of priorities do you have that you buff the Mad Cat Mk. II but nerf a Trebuchet? The Black Lanner isn't even mentioned in the whole quirks sheet! You're buffing Hellbringers but giving no changes to Black Lanners? No changes to Thunderbolts?

Every time I look at this sheet I keep seeing more massive snafus pop out at me.

https://www.dropbox....11_30.docx?dl=0


Beyond the quirks wonkiness I'm also concerned that boosting the agility of all heavies and assaults by such large numbers will negatively impact weight class balance by reducing the mobility advantage that lights and mediums are supposed to have over the big bois. No, boosting the light and medium agility won't change that because they'll still be just as large of targets that are now a bit easier to track with enhanced assault agility.

I'd ascribe the Gulag quirks being questionable to diverging views on Mech role.
"Emotionally" I'd be on board with you, I'd want mild armor quirks for the Catapult K2, but I know they don't belong there. The K2 is a direct-fire equivalent to all the other Catapults, meaning it's supposed to be a support platform.
I've pressed my K2 into brawler service because dealing ~300 damage in a match with 2x HVYPPC was good piloting performance on my part, i.e. the build sucked. It sucked especially hard if Quick Play landed the lore-like PPC K2 on Solaris City, which is why I rebuilt it as an Autocannon brawler. Because I like the iconic chassis and don't want to sell it. But it's not a Rakshasa, it's a Catapult. It's basically a walking field artillery piece.
So while I would like it to be a different way, if energy weapons and especially the IS PPC line all get a boost, I'll live with my not-buffed K2 and rebuild it as the PPC supporter it was intended to be.
The Gulag invested the thinking power into making chassis utility more varied by role and design? I'm for them then.

When it comes to Heavy and Assault agility, we could perhaps find an elegant compromise by varying Mech acceleration with engine rating.
So, like, top speed rises linearly with engine rating, and acceleration rises exponentially.
Because of the poor acceleration, there's currently no rational reason to go beyond rating 300 on Assaults.
Even with a 400 engine, it takes "forever" to reach top speed, and an effective Assault Mech must match the speed of the nearest Annihilator / Dire Wolf anyway. The agility of Assault Mechs is so atrocious that you can get away with downgrading from the Mad Cat MkII's stock engine.
Since the chassis will never be a good Annihilator-like Mech, I tried making an XL400 Mad Cat MkII, to play like a bigger Timber Wolf. It's pointless. Jump Jets are much better for improving mobility than an engine larger than stock. It's a pity.
But if no other Mech, the Timber Wolf needs an acceleration boost. Pilot Skills won't fix it alone. The armor-quirked Bushwacker makes a better Timber Wolf than Timbie himself. The Timber Wolf handles like a battleship. It's a line warrior as it is now, it can't duel.

JPeiper, on 21 February 2021 - 09:44 AM, said:

I'd like to ask you to be very carefull buffing micro,sm lasers and mg's. I can see your point when mounting these in a mid/heavy/assault but if playing these do you want lights blowing out your back in no time? You'll then have 3/4 guys in lights with these buffed weapons running around your legs and no way to hit 'em. This is the only game mechanic that leaves me frustrated and playing Fallout 76 the rest of the day. (yes, that bad) . I can live with a player sniping with a gauss and no charge up time -I'll get to cover and still be viable, having a light around my legs is the end...I'm taking a time out to type this as it happened in the last 3 games.Please don't make it worse .

This is the ultimate problem with "design by committee". In the end, someone with a good understanding of all aspects - Light to Assault, lore conservativism and pragmatism, pro and casual - must take the reins firmly and create something with a face and an identity.
I can understand your objection if I consider the Piranha, but 1 mech with a frankly stupid hardpoint setup compared to the other options shouldn't force us all to accept Small Lasers and Micro Lasers being trash on all other platforms. The Piranha will have to be dealt with separately, using negative quirks or something else; with other lights, a Small Laser buff should not be game-breaking.

Edited by xAndy199, 21 February 2021 - 10:34 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

xAndy199, on 21 February 2021 - 10:29 AM, said:

This is the ultimate problem with Design by Committee. In the end, someone with a good understanding of all aspects - Light to Assault, lore conservativism and pragmatism, pro and casual - must take the reins firmly and create something with a face and an identity.

Good news, that's exactly what the "Balance Gulag" group is.

Quote

I can understand your objection if I consider the Piranha, but 1 mech with a frankly stupid hardpoint setup compared to the other options shouldn't force us all to accept Small Lasers and Micro Lasers being trash on all other platforms. The Piranha will have to be dealt with separately, using negative quirks or something else; with other lights, a Small Laser buff should not be game-breaking.

It's balanced on account of it being the most fragile 'Mech in the game with poor relative agility.

You are reading the frustrations of a player who either cannot aim or is bringing big 'Mechs geared up entirely to delete other big 'Mechs (i.e. all big guns, all in the torso) and suffering a weakness against little ones as a result. It's the game working as intended.

[xAndy199]

Miss Greene, on 21 February 2021 - 10:35 AM, said:

Good news, that's exactly what the "Balance Gulag" group is.

I meant someone in PGI thinking it over

[Y E O N N E]

xAndy199, on 21 February 2021 - 10:41 AM, said:

I meant someone in PGI thinking it over

No such thing exists. And I don't just mean that meanly tongue-in-cheek, none of them play the game frequently enough or competently enough to do what you ask. That's how we ended up where we are today and that's why they are trawling the community for feedback.

[East Indy]

FupDup, on 21 February 2021 - 09:01 AM, said:

The Gulag stuff has a number of good ideas and also some that don't seem so good.

I'd think (okay, hope) that within the scope of the request, changes to weapons could be made first and separately.

I realize that the group's proposal recommends other changes accompany it, but nothing in the first spreadsheet seems so radical that some 'Mechs would become problematic overnight.

Frankly, both the weapon change and quirk changes look like "taking care of business," i.e., correcting imbalances and flattening wrinkles that have persisted for years.

[FupDup]

East Indy, on 21 February 2021 - 11:04 AM, said:

Frankly, both the weapon change and quirk changes look like "taking care of business," i.e., correcting imbalances and flattening wrinkles that have persisted for years.

There are some pretty huge imbalances that they've missed like C-Bill Thunderbolts, C-Bill Quickdraws, Black Lanners, Chargers, etc.

Giving positive quirks to the MCII implies that the MCII is an underpowered mech. Giving no quirk changes to the Charger implies that it's a balanced mech as it is. I really, really hope they don't actually believe that the Charger is superior to the MCII and that they just forgot about it. Same deal with the Huntsman and Hunch IIC getting buffs but Black Lanner getting nada. Really hope it's just an oversight...

Edited by FupDup, 21 February 2021 - 11:24 AM.