86 replies to this topic

[Voodoomancer]

Union-class dropships. That is all.

[valt901]

Is it possible to have random spawn points. Divide the map in half, either vertically or horizontally and team A spawns random on one side and team B spawns random on the other. This solves the assaults always get boinked problem because now no one will know where they'll be. No matter where you change the spawn points to, at some point you will be able to exploit those positions as they become known. Random is the only way to put this issue to bed.

[TASADAR101]

Could we make it so teams spawn together or at least closer? It's really hard to keep pace with the team when getting the left most spawn on a given map in a mech that's lower than 55kph.

[C337Skymaster]

Quick fix: group the spawn points together in the same area.

Longer term wishlist: replace three Leopard Class dropships with a single Union Class dropship which comes all the way to ground (rather than doing a hot drop and flying away), with spawn points INSIDE the dropship, requiring exiting down a loading ramp. This provides more cover for spawns in respawn situations, the ability to have the dropship present with active defensive weaponry provides greater discouragement of spawn camping, and ability for the enemy team to destroy the dropship (though it should be a severely hardened target), will allow for an early end to stomps. There could even be a "capture" mechanic to make the enemy team feel like they're assaulting an actual worthwhile target, with a realistic objective (capturing dropships intact is a big deal).

[C337Skymaster]

spannerturner, on 19 February 2021 - 05:31 PM, said:

Militarily speaking, why would you deploy your force completely spread out? That is stupid and insane. Realistically, you would want to deploy your force "en masse" to ensure maximum fire and force support. Especially when deploying against an enemy of unknown size, concentration, and firepower.

The easiest fix would be to just spawn the whole team within the same grid square.

It would be different if the contents of the lances adhered to traditional tables of order. Where Alpha Lance was all Lights or fast Mediums, a traditional "recon lance", and was then dropped in a position closer to the "expected enemy location". However, with the size of most of the maps and the speed of most lights and some mediums, even if you spawn the entire drop in a single square, the fast movers can go off and do their thing long before the rest of the company gets to the fighting grounds (ie Polar Highlands in Domination mode)

Having recently read some of the books (I'm currently on "Impetus of War"), it's not so much that you'd "want" to spread your forces out, as that you'd need to or be forced to for one reason or another. In Impetus of War, they're attacked on the way into the atmosphere, and crash-land within a 50km area. It kinda seemed like their intended landing zones were already significantly spread out, and that could possibly be to prevent the dropships from crashing into each other in rough weather during the approach, or to prevent them from all being destroyed by the same artillery strike.

That said, there's only 12 of us per match per team, which would easily fit into a single Union Class dropship (already a super-common class of ship), which would then land in whatever single spot it lands in, and deploy the entire team from there.

A hot-drop (airborne drop) would also spread the team across the landscape. Reference MW3, where you spend half the campaign tracking down your lancemates, or WWII paratrooper drops, which could be blown miles off course by bad weather or bad navigators.

[Cementi]

Krasnopesky, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

One main suggestion I have is to simply spawn all 12 mechs together in one place. More suggestions will follow.

Spawn point woes really did start when they split the lances up. Just drop us as a group and allow us to choose who wants to flank or not.

On top of this I feel that a single spawn location for each team would be easier to balance. If it isn't working out you just move it a few hundred meters or something and you don't have to worry about balancing the other two locations or slow assaults being screwed the moment they drop because they landed in the exposed position.

Another thing one could do with a single drop is make the location random every map. Bigger the map the more options for drop locations. Making scouting a bit more useful and matches would feel less static as it might make people consider using different parts of the map. This could be difficult to make balanced but I feel the perk of making fights take place in different parts of the map would out weigh the drawbacks.

Pretty much the one thing that makes me play less is the fact that as you climbed the tier ladder the fights became more and more one dimensional as people are less inclined to do risky things and just go to the same places on the map every time. Really noticeable with the tier reset. I got put down in tier 3 and the game was alot more fun as people were doing weird stuff. While I was climbing steadily I didn't play much. So when a friend played alot and climbed fast when I team with him it's just like old times. Run to the same spot and shoot. Rinse and repeat. I feel the only way to fix that is to randomize spawns.

[Saint Duck]

HPG Uplink. Bravo lance (domination,skirmish?). Both teams, same problem. If your mech can't do 81 you are probably not going to make it to your team alive. Bye bye Night Gyr, hehe. Opposing team A and C lance enter to your left and you usually have 2 choices, fight and die or run and get back shot. 81kph gets you to cover, any less can be 8v1 or 2.

[Frabby]

I like the idea of randomized dropzones. Specifically, I'd like to see a random scatter effect where the DropShip drops the 'Mechs... somewhere... in the vicinity of the predefined drop point.
In an ideal world, the lance leader or company commander should be able to select dropzones for the individual lances on the map (perhaps within a predefined area depending on mission - no drops directly into the Domination zone, etc.)

The Union idea is attractive lore-wise but really doesn't add much to the actual game imho, except for the outlier case of preventing spawn point camping. If that happens, your team is in trouble anyways so I don't regard it as a particularly egregious problem. But I admit I haven't played that many respawn missions yet.

Edit: Oh, and an afterthought: It makes one hell of a difference if the DropShip lands and stays in place (becoming a super-turret), or if it moves off. Because deploying a flanking lance doesn't make sense currently when the departing DropShip easily gives away your position. An option to land the DropShip and keep it landed would probably offer up cool possibilities for mission design and gameplay, both in quick play and respawn missions.

Edited by Frabby, 26 February 2021 - 05:54 AM.

[C337Skymaster]

Another thought after disconnecting, myself: if we landed in a Union Class dropship and had to manually exit the ship, we're relatively protected inside in the event that we DC and have to reconnect, and having the ship be destructible or capturable as a match objective alleviates the issue of "that one last guy".

[Omniseed]

stop making donut-shaped pathways for the love of christ and piss

[AjerWerklWerkl]

Thanks to the PGI team for listening the community on this...

+1 to the idea of spawning all 12 mechs close to each other to start with while other solutions are considered.

+1 also to FREDtheROLF's idea of spawning the two teams ~1600 meters or so apart, where no one can shoot effectively, but mechs can be seen. This allows many new parts of maps to be used. It'll also save a lot of wasted walking time, while being far enough apart that flanking or light mech plays still can be done.

When the teams spawn away from the center, in a manner that is not symmetric AROUND the center, they will not end up nascaring nearly as much! EVERYONE wants that fix!!!

[C337Skymaster]

AjerWerklWerkl, on 26 February 2021 - 09:08 PM, said:

Thanks to the PGI team for listening the community on this...

+1 to the idea of spawning all 12 mechs close to each other to start with while other solutions are considered.

+1 also to FREDtheROLF's idea of spawning the two teams ~1600 meters or so apart, where no one can shoot effectively, but mechs can be seen. This allows many new parts of maps to be used. It'll also save a lot of wasted walking time, while being far enough apart that flanking or light mech plays still can be done.

When the teams spawn away from the center, in a manner that is not symmetric AROUND the center, they will not end up nascaring nearly as much! EVERYONE wants that fix!!!

So distance WILL have to be greater than 2000 meters, because with a combination of 'mech quirks and skills, you can get certain long-range weapons to fire at about that range, so at 1600m, those weapons will actually be doing noticeable damage. Considerable damage, once those weapons are boated. (Specifically AC/2's and all variants, ERPPCs, and ERLL on certain 'mechs).

[Absaint]

With all due respect, a suggestion to spawn everyone close together has some unforeseen consequences...

First of all is boring, we just go back to two murderballs that duke it out. Lights and fast mechs will no longer get a chance to catch mechs out of position, so they will have less of a place.

Really gameplay becomes very very repetitive and boring.

Spawn points were separated for a reason, the fact that alot of people dont remmenber why, doesnt make it less real when it comes back in force.

most of the problems right now arise because with the group gueue assaults are placed with alpha group, ready to be eaten by nascar. Well, fix THAT. Tons of ideas to fix this without wrecking the work done by people before you.

Move them to the middle group instead of the left one, or get a level designer and programer together and find a cheap and effective way to tackle the problem,.

A year ago you had zero resources, not you have people, use them.

Edited by Absaint, 01 March 2021 - 07:38 AM.

[C337Skymaster]

Absaint, on 01 March 2021 - 07:33 AM, said:

With all due respect, a suggestion to spawn everyone close together has some unforeseen consequences...

First of all is boring, we just go back to two murderballs that duke it out. Lights and fast mechs will no longer get a chance to catch mechs out of position, so they will have less of a place.

Really gameplay becomes very very repetitive and boring.

Spawn points were separated for a reason, the fact that alot of people dont remmenber why, doesnt make it less real when it comes back in force.

most of the problems right now arise because with the group gueue assaults are placed with alpha group, ready to be eaten by nascar. Well, fix THAT. Tons of ideas to fix this without wrecking the work done by people before you.

Move them to the middle group instead of the left one, or get a level designer and programer together and find a cheap and effective way to tackle the problem,.

A year ago you had zero resources, not you have people, use them.

So this is a fair concern. Already on certain maps we do have fairly closely placed spawns (Polar) where this is generally the case. As one of the proponents of transitioning to Union Class dropships (i.e.: grouped spawn), I would also be interested in evaluating combining that with random spawns, so you never know where you're going to land, or where the other team set down (giving a purpose to light scouts, again). One of the reasons that I've slacked off playing MWO is that it's stale. Too much of the same thing over and over again. Any form of randomness thrown into the scenarios would help break the monotony, at least for awhile. But there has to be more than two landing zone options. It's really gotta be 20-ish per side. Too many to memorize or remember from match-to-match, and no set combinations. ACTUAL randomness. Otherwise, the monotony will set back in once we memorize and get used to the "new normal". That's been the case with every new map and every change: it's fresh for a week or two, until everyone learns the new routine.

That's another argument in favor of procedurally generated maps, now that you've learned how to create them in MW5. That's literally the one reason that Age of Empires II stands out so popularly, even against the original Age of Empires and Age of Empires III: you literally never play the same map twice, because there are too many different configurations that are procedurally generated each time, keeping each match fresh and unique.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Absaint, on 01 March 2021 - 07:33 AM, said:

First of all is boring, we just go back to two murderballs that duke it out.

That's what our matches now gravitate to. And it's a "rush" to group up with your teammates 'lest you get ripped apart by some fast lights that take advantage of the distance assaults might have to travel. That wasn't intended by separating them so that needs to be corrected. With the way the game is designed, there is absolutely no reason not to be grouped up because it's all strength in numbers.

Thinking off the top of my head, the only reasons you would not group up is
1. Tactical decision to flank or harass or snipe or something like that, to confuse or split the enemy team. Squirrel!
2. Objectives--you need to attack or defend more than one location simultaneously, or travel time between the two (or more) is too long to ensure the objective.
3. Map design--There either isn't adequate cover or room for positions for 12 mechs in one spot, but if spread out more, you can cover an area from multiple angles.

As to point number two, even in Conquest matches right now, the best strategy is usually to have the top 1 or 2 fast mechs on your team cap, while the rest of your team groups up to confront the enemy team. You have quite a lot of time (as long as it's 3-2 on caps) to wipe them out and cap the remaining points for a win.

A change to game modes and map design would be the only way to negate that. But that's even if the player base even wants to force the breakup of the murderball. For ideas, I think we can turn to examples in other games and even FPSs.

[Volkodav]

The biggest problem for domination is one point where everyone aspires, which simply serves as a gathering place for everyone. This is how the naskar takes place - to get around from the flank. There is simply nowhere to go except one direction chosen by the attackers - and as a rule, the simplest, fastest and easiest way is chosen - a flank attack.

Look at any other mode - they also have problems due to the design of the maps itself, etc., but sometimes nascar does not happen there). dominance - nascar around a designated place - there is no choice. In rarely game mod incursion - and there nascar is even rarer - i.e. problem in some spawnpoints and placement of targets on maps.

[Volkodav]

Collecting all the spawns in one place - the easiest and cheapest way, it is easier to balance in the future - I think.
Just do not forget about the recommendations while doing this:
- slightly increase the distance between mechs so that they do not collide
- all mechs are turned to face in the direction of attack
- assaults in the center and a little a fore

additionally +

RickySpanish, on 19 February 2021 - 07:00 AM, said:

We should join a pregame lobby where we can reorganize lances, pick 'Mechs and spawn locations, discuss tactics and place commander markers on the map in advance of the drop.

additionally2 +
1. Domination mode this is a good suggestion:

VonBruinwald, on 18 February 2021 - 07:39 PM, said:

2. Skirmish mode - an random spawn (in the case of grouping everyone in one place - please dropship Union) is easier to implement and balancing. The dropship dropped and flew away (or just stands, but is not active, without guns, etc.)
3. Assault mode - everything is the same as for a skirmish - but the dropship has completely landed - this is a base + guns and a capture point.
4. Conquest mode - not a random spawn in one place or at least assaults in the center - since there are many points where you need to move - it's easier to balance when the fall is known.
5. Incursion mode - just move it to the FP, but more on that in the post below.

Community Warfare(FP):
- for quickplay maps) - the same thing - just add some more points for domination and conquest
- for FP maps - add a Union for attackers.

It all gives the best experience + a sense of good attractiveness (union) in terms of history)

p.s. :
1) for deadly ball problem - see additional 2.
2) spawn farm problem -

C337Skymaster, on 26 February 2021 - 06:08 AM, said:

Another thought after disconnecting, myself: if we landed in a Union Class dropship and had to manually exit the ship, we're relatively protected inside in the event that we DC and have to reconnect, and having the ship be destructible or capturable as a match objective alleviates the issue of "that one last guy".

Edited by Volkodav, 21 March 2021 - 02:24 PM.

[Volkodav]

Fraction Warfare^

The best option for me. Return the capture of the planet by sectors/



Stage 1 - scouting, yes return it, it is interesting at the begin and for small groups - no more than half an hour. without respawn the first 5 sectors in the picture
Stage 2 - quickplay maps and modes with the proposed changes above - an hour without respawning(or only 2) - the next 5 sectors in the picture
Stage 3 - Incursion, with a change - that the base is on one side and the other has destructible dropships, of different types - for example, a union in the center with assults, and on the flanks those that are now. - half an hour - two respawns - next five sectors
Stage 4 - FW maps with a cannon as the culmination of the game - hour (as now - 4 respawns) - central sector - red - planet/ attackers on Union.

OR ! Or it is not necessarily stages in time. 5 sectors - this is five games, it's easier and faster.

The first three stages - upon completion (victory in dragging the rope) each give their own reward. 1 - known enemy mechs, 2 - known movement of the enemy, 3 - if the attacking team won - no longtom + several AI escorts atlases of daishi as a shield when passing through the gate), if the defense team won - there is a longtom. longtom - as in the last implementation or even more nerfed - just like a small plus for the winners. Or as an option - not a longtom, but more turrets from the defenders.

Stripes on the sectors to display the time of the match . And from down part picture - the number of people in the queue is also welcome/ more informations for helping waiting players.

Edited by Volkodav, 21 March 2021 - 02:29 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

So I miss scouting as a parallel complement to Invasion (FP). It was actually fun, knowing that you were having an effect on someone else's game, and knowing that you were making a difference for "your team" (your faction). Insofar as scouting goes, I also miss the Long Tom, because it made an excellent objective for scouting teams to aim for.

That said, I also think any return of long tom artillery should be as AI pieces (vehicles or fixed positions) within the active map, or within firing range just outside of it, so they can be assaulted and destroyed by the attackers. Same should go for Arrow IV artillery missiles, which should follow TAG laser designators, since that's what they're meant for.

While we're on the subject of Faction improvements: attackers should be deployed from a grounded Union Class Dropship with full defensive weaponry, but also fully destructible (or captureable for a bigger bonus). Spawning inside the dropship solves the issue of spawn camping while having the dropship be destructible or captureable solves the problem of disconnects or hiding inside.

Defenders should have 'mech bay facilities that they spawn inside, which can (and should) include limited repair function (armor and ammo, but no destroyed components, kinda like MW4's repair gantries, crossed with the 'mech hangar from the MW4 opening cinematic). The solution to DC's or hiding in their case is to complete the base destruction objective.

[DEVVAROW]

I have a general observation. I have noticed the obsession surrounding the location of the starting point of the lances in the teams. I can say with utmost certainty that the way there is a fixed spawn point is the first mistake. Another thing that is wrong is the way the teams are placed far away from one another and made to place themselves accordingly throughout the procession of the match. This initial spawn to battle transition can be critically detrimental and it starts with the way the teams are placed far away and the spawn points always being fixed to this attribution. My proposal as a solution to this multiple point problem is to dissect the problems at their cause or source. There is optimum capability and adaptability in mechs, that is not the problem here. It is the players and they cannot be made to position themselves accordingly in a battle situation 100% of the time. MWO spawn point placement can help with this: multiply the variations and the types of matches played can be almost endless. As it stands the spawn points are fixed and thus mech placements and ultimate battle locations generally form in the central regions of each map. This is the main problem in having no variation in each game. If the spawn points were placed closer together so the teams have to engage each other at an instant and place them at different locations. So on one game the two main placements (enemy and friendly) are placed up in the corner of the map, close together and in that fight the mechs are already in a battle position. The next game on that map and same game mode the mechs can spawn in a different region of the map, but same again close together so the game can start and not be the first 2 minutes traveling and the assaults getting chewed up from behind. I hope this comes across as understandable.

To conclude, if the spawn points on maps were strategically placed to offer multiple plays on the same map by placing them closer together and in different locations, but these locations must be paired (enemy and friendly) so that they are: 1) close together.... 2) in locations that offer optimum plays in the game for a battle (i.e. game coordinator setting up the game to play the game nicely plz) and 3) are different so in big maps like forest colony that is like more than 5km squared or something a battle can actually happen in different places, like in the open corner with all the water that never gets used and stuff like that. To elaborate for examples sake you got a game on terra therma domination ok... this can be arguably one of the most set games ever... change the spawn points so the enemy is close to you and all of a sudden, instead of walking to the middle and waiting you have no choice coz the enmy is upon you and you must fight then and there while the domination circle is taken care of by those of the team that are made to take care of it. and on the next terra therma match that is domination the spawns can be placed on the other side so when the game starts it isn't the same as the last game. Sure you have to hold the circle like before, but now you are in a different place and thus a different game is played. Instead, what we have is in these two games depending on pure luck you could be placed in a seemingly random location far away from your other lances and very very far away from the enemy and to make it worse, those locations you spawn at are set and cannot be changed... the only thing you can hope for is to be on the other side next time or something like that. Way too far away from anything, friendlies and enemies alike. So it doesn't matter, anyway coz the spawn points are not complex and thought out enough.

Simply put the spawns closer make then tactically viable in a game-play situation. I could go on for days about it... polar highlands... you can have like 10 different battle locations there, but due to the spawns not being compatible with each other all you get is the first 3 minutes wandering to the middle. Same thing every time. My point is clear. That could be made better by making the 10 battle zones and highlighting them on the map. Choosing the spawn points for the 6 lances so that they are clustered around that battle region/zone. The game would all of a sudden have 50 more maps that were always there, but were never discovered... Grim plexus borders never get used to battle in, but were made to be one of the funnest battle zones in the entire game. Such a let down to have no battles there coz of this spawn point thisn. Skirmish and domination grim plexus and assault for that matter all identical games.... If you changed the spawn points up to my suggestions those 3 games resulting in one could be made into 3 types with more than 10 spawn battle zones for each and then it goes from being as useful as 3 games being one game to 3 being like 30 different good games. I hope you can understand this. The battles can happen in the entirety of the map at all times, for the most part.... Otherwise they can all happen in the middle and resulting from a transition from one side of the map to the middle, just as the enemy does. Same thing every time...