38 replies to this topic

[Flyby215]

VonBruinwald, on 21 February 2021 - 06:32 AM, said:

How big is your dataset? Curious to see how the charts compare with regards to distribution. If you got it all typed out and can copy/paste PM me.

Sorry, I should know better. I added the matches played per to my original post.

[Tarl Cabot]

crazytimes, on 20 February 2021 - 05:32 PM, said:

I stand by my previous claim that "close" games are indicative that everyone ran around doing their own thing, trading kills, and not working together. "Stomps" fall into two broad categories - one team nascared better than the other, or one team stayed as a team, focused fire, communicated and had a good time at the other teams expense.


I don't see trying to artificially create a situation where every game is "close" is somehow something to work towards. I care a bit about some kind of rough skill and tonnage balance, but other than that the outcome should be what the outcome is. Trying to balance a game to make trading kills rather than teamwork a end goal isn't a win for me.

This but to add onto the tonnage balance. Remove min/max tonnage and change it to 1 mech/weight class for the 2-4mans then match up weight class overall, as it had been in the pure solo queue. And allow 2-man to be the only group to double up, adding 3-man to the 4-man setup, instead of allowing a 3-man + 2-man to be matched on the side.

Would it help? In several instances but it would remove the negative tonnage perception. And the above? If it is going to be a group drop, the group should be seeding that MM, not being added in later, if that is what is happening. Actual good teams will still work together and be successful, while those who play to play without regard to results will still be there but the massive tonnage differences, ie 5 assaults team vs 2 assault, perception will have been removed from the equation.

Even though Nightbird had provided an MM primarily based on utilizing W/L, how it was presented and timing, did not fit what PGI was looking for. In his setup though, with a group seeding, a group w/positive W/L vs a group w/lower-negative W/L, the positive W/L group would be saddled primarily with the players with the low/negative W/L status.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Tarl Cabot, on 21 February 2021 - 11:09 AM, said:

This but to add onto the tonnage balance. Remove min/max tonnage and change it to 1 mech/weight class for the 2-4mans then match up weight class overall, as it had been in the pure solo queue. And allow 2-man to be the only group to double up, adding 3-man to the 4-man setup, instead of allowing a 3-man + 2-man to be matched on the side.

Would it help? In several instances but it would remove the negative tonnage perception. And the above? If it is going to be a group drop, the group should be seeding that MM, not being added in later, if that is what is happening. Actual good teams will still work together and be successful, while those who play to play without regard to results will still be there but the massive tonnage differences, ie 5 assaults team vs 2 assault, perception will have been removed from the equation.

Even though Nightbird had provided an MM primarily based on utilizing W/L, how it was presented and timing, did not fit what PGI was looking for. In his setup though, with a group seeding, a group w/positive W/L vs a group w/lower-negative W/L, the positive W/L group would be saddled primarily with the players with the low/negative W/L status.

I think 1/1/1/1 is a good idea and add a soft tonnage limit so you have to also think about tonnage as well

Edited by SirSmokes, 21 February 2021 - 11:52 AM.

[himself]

I've seen an increase spike in the use of NASCAR tactics. Usually whoever engages in the NASCAR last tends to win, as they'll be better grouped to respond to trickling enemies who will all lemming straight into the other team's heaviest mechs..

I've also seen an increase in people who defend this sort of thing, it's rather disgusting.

[Breidr]

All I want to say is I can only really enjoy this game in a group anymore, and even then, only sometimes as it can make me have to punch above my weight.

They seem to have successfully killed of a place for folks who just want to play the game. That, or this game has bled to the point that most of those folks are gone and the remainder is screwed. And before you say anything unconstructive:

-I have meta builds
-I have a mic/comms and will use them
-I do try to stay with the team and make the best decisions I can.

Also, the overwhelming neglect of these forums for Reddit/Social Media still pisses me off.

Edited by Breidr, 21 February 2021 - 07:20 PM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

himself, on 21 February 2021 - 05:27 PM, said:

I've seen an increase spike in the use of NASCAR tactics. Usually whoever engages in the NASCAR last tends to win, as they'll be better grouped to respond to trickling enemies who will all lemming straight into the other team's heaviest mechs..

I've also seen an increase in people who defend this sort of thing, it's rather disgusting.

NASCAR is not a tactic it's just something that happens

Edited by SirSmokes, 22 February 2021 - 01:53 AM.

[MechWarrior5782621]

VonBruinwald, on 21 February 2021 - 06:32 AM, said:

Rather than considering individual scenarios/matches you have to look at the overall trend. I was actually disappointed I didn't have any 12-0 matches when gathering this data. Going from Paul's numbers:



Essentially, with proper MM tweaks we have a 30% stomp rate, but since the valves were relaxed we appear to have shot up to 43%.

What that indicates is that the +13% in stomps is due to poor MM decisions. How much of that initial 30% is down to the MM is a different question.





How big is your dataset? Curious to see how the charts compare with regards to distribution. If you got it all typed out and can copy/paste PM me.

It's funny that u asked this question, because the dataset that u posted is much too small to draw any conclusions from.

How do u explain so many games with a 9-kill difference... many more such games than any other kill differential?

Maybe your personal playstyle leads to more stomps than the general population. Were u playing a lot of assaults when u collected that data?

[Mochyn Pupur]

One other factor I've seen in this thread yet, is that you are getting 4 man pre-mades dropping in "Fun" mechs. A third of the drop using mechs that have little in the way of usefulness, quite often drastically underweight and the pilots running around having great fun at the expense of the other eight players.

In many drops, I would rather have a full pug team against 8 + 4 man than have to suffer the idiocy of effectively losing a lance because they - and they only - are having fun in their unit lance.

Of course, another factor for the stomps is most likely the event(s) which are great for getting players in, but not so for semi-serious drops and co-operative play instead of score gathering and hopping over to the next mech for a fresh drop as soon as they can.

[VonBruinwald]

Fainting Goat, on 22 February 2021 - 02:08 AM, said:

It's funny that u asked this question, because the dataset that u posted is much too small to draw any conclusions from.

How do u explain so many games with a 9-kill difference... many more such games than any other kill differential?

Maybe your personal playstyle leads to more stomps than the general population. Were u playing a lot of assaults when u collected that data?

Yeah, it's a tiny sample I know, I was one of the people complaining about PGI's sample size when they came up with their numbers. The irony is not lost, trust me. Unfortunately, I'm limited in how data I can gather, if people want to send me their match results¹ I'm happy to pool the data and will include a player-by-player comparison to help spot erroneous data submissions.

The 9-kill spike isn't unusual, I was expecting some kind of skewed distribution. What I found more interesting was the 8 kill dip.

As for my playstyle, all the drops I was solo, mostly in mediums and lights. W:L works out to be 1.2 from screenshots², I'm not going to work out K:D. Current season stats has me listed as 1.1 W:L, 1.27 K:D but just shy of half those matches are pre-patch. But from those numbers, I wouldn't say I'm a net contributor to stomps.



¹ I encourage you to start logging your own in eihter case, this goes for everyone! If people want to send the results other in batches of 20+ I'm happy to compile, preferably via PM. Also; if you can tell me whether it's group/solo mixed drops it would be interesting to see.

² If only there was away to automate this....

Edited by VonBruinwald, 22 February 2021 - 04:29 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

VonBruinwald, on 22 February 2021 - 04:26 AM, said:

Yeah, it's a tiny sample I know, I was one of the people complaining about PGI's sample size when they came up with their numbers. The irony is not lost, trust me. Unfortunately, I'm limited in how data I can gather, if people want to send me their match results¹ I'm happy to pool the data and will include a player-by-player comparison to help spot erroneous data submissions.

The 9-kill spike isn't unusual, I was expecting some kind of skewed distribution. What I found more interesting was the 8 kill dip.

As for my playstyle, all the drops I was solo, mostly in mediums and lights. W:L works out to be 1.2 from screenshots², I'm not going to work out K:D. Current season stats has me listed as 1.1 W:L, 1.27 K:D but just shy of half those matches are pre-patch. But from those numbers, I wouldn't say I'm a net contributor to stomps.



¹ I encourage you to start logging your own in eihter case, this goes for everyone! If people want to send the results other in batches of 20+ I'm happy to compile, preferably via PM. Also; if you can tell me whether it's group/solo mixed drops it would be interesting to see.

² If only there was away to automate this....

Stomps have a snowball effect once a team starts to lose mechs that team starts to lose fire power and DPS. Allowing the team winning the trades to more quickly accelerate the stomp

[VonBruinwald]

SirSmokes, on 22 February 2021 - 04:34 AM, said:

Stomps have a snowball effect once a team starts to lose mechs that team starts to lose fire power and DPS. Allowing the team winning the trades to more quickly accelerate the stomp

I think you phrased that backwards, stomps are a result of the snowball effect. But that's beside the point, nobody is denying that stomps will occur be it because of snowballs, 4-mans causing an imbalance, a bad MM or just dumb luck.

Stomps aren't fun, particularly for the losing team, so ideally we want to avoid them:

You can't stop snowballs.

Removing groups from the PUG queue, is an option PGI aren't willing to listen to. Tweaking their tonnage limits to reduce tonnage imbalance is an option.

Tweaking the MM settings works, as evident by loosening the valves having the opposite effect.


So it becomes a case of what's an acceptable % of stomps and what we can do to reduce them accordingly.

[The pessimistic optimist]

VonBruinwald, on 22 February 2021 - 05:24 AM, said:

I think you phrased that backwards, stomps are a result of the snowball effect. But that's beside the point, nobody is denying that stomps will occur be it because of snowballs, 4-mans causing an imbalance, a bad MM or just dumb luck.

Stomps aren't fun, particularly for the losing team, so ideally we want to avoid them:

You can't stop snowballs.

Removing groups from the PUG queue, is an option PGI aren't willing to listen to. Tweaking their tonnage limits to reduce tonnage imbalance is an option.

Tweaking the MM settings works, as evident by loosening the valves having the opposite effect.


So it becomes a case of what's an acceptable % of stomps and what we can do to reduce them accordingly.

Changing up maps and game modes as well to make less murder balls will also help

[Willard Phule]

SirSmokes, on 22 February 2021 - 01:52 AM, said:

NASCAR is not a tactic it's just something that happens

It's hilarious to watch people cry about the nascar, but never about what precedes it.

Every match is the same. Cluster up in one spot, zoom to maximum, then back into everyone as soon as the shooting starts. Then, people try to get out of the way of being backed into and the nascar starts.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Willard Phule, on 23 February 2021 - 04:18 AM, said:

It's hilarious to watch people cry about the nascar, but never about what precedes it.

Every match is the same. Cluster up in one spot, zoom to maximum, then back into everyone as soon as the shooting starts. Then, people try to get out of the way of being backed into and the nascar starts.

Its combination of map focal points on top of mechs moving different speeds on top of as you say mechs moving to get shots on enemy and the enemy team move out of the way not to get shot and also moving to get shots on the enemy team. TA DA you have a NASCAR

[Willard Phule]

SirSmokes, on 23 February 2021 - 08:07 AM, said:

Its combination of map focal points on top of mechs moving different speeds on top of as you say mechs moving to get shots on enemy and the enemy team move out of the way not to get shot and also moving to get shots on the enemy team. TA DA you have a NASCAR

For what it's worth, it's only considered "nascar" here. In purely military terms, they call it "outflanking the enemy."

[The pessimistic optimist]

Willard Phule, on 24 February 2021 - 04:21 AM, said:

For what it's worth, it's only considered "nascar" here. In purely military terms, they call it "outflanking the enemy."

Nah it just something that happens. 90% of "out flanking" I have seen was NEVER called or planned. In the military these things are planned. Something that happens naturally on it own is not a strategy

[Willard Phule]

SirSmokes, on 24 February 2021 - 04:39 AM, said:

Nah it just something that happens. 90% of "out flanking" I have seen was NEVER called or planned. In the military these things are planned. Something that happens naturally on it own is not a strategy

That's based on how many years of your military service? Because there are some of us that actually have served and this is absolutely what mechanized units do without direction when under fire.

[Ekson Valdez]

Nascar and military expertise, do not seem to fit with the topic of the thread. Stay on topic, please.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Willard Phule, on 24 February 2021 - 06:29 AM, said:

That's based on how many years of your military service? Because there are some of us that actually have served and this is absolutely what mechanized units do without direction when under fire.

Its called observation and logical thinking something I am very good at. I am bad at a lot of things staying on task and writing and reading.but this I can do well