I know this won't be popular but...
Just played Three games this morning. Got circle strafed to death by Two lights again. running a MAD with 2 RAC and lasers(but load out does not matter), can't even target them .Last game myself and an ANI ,both in good shape, got killed by 2 lights just running around our legs.the animation could not even keep up with the speed of these things (COM moving and turning so fast the legs did'nt move...)Yes, I know lights can be a one shot from a large mech, but all you have to do is move and keep the speed up, I've tried it and it works, dart in , get behind,slow down to stay ahead of the turning mech and keep shooting.Easy.And frustrating for the heavy pilot. I played "whack a mole" in the arcade, was crap at that too....
This has to be sorted out , it's not a skill test and I don't care if half of you think I'm crap , we ,or most of us,play this game for fun and it's not, if this carries on MWO will be dead 'cause we will not keep players, and any sales type will say it's better to keep customers than have to find new ones to replace the people who leave.
And I see the community wants to buff MG's and SM Las , well done, you'll have your backs ripped out from 300M now and circle strafing will take half as long.
This is a shame as I've never noticed aimbots or hacks in this game (glitches ,yes) and the community is (mostly) good.
To fix, slow them down and buff thier XP / cash for doing what lights do in a combined arms unit,find and spot / cap / snipe.
As far is I see it's an exploit, not a skill.
For those who dislike the above post just know I've spent this time 'cause I care about this game and it's future. I'm off now to cool down in Fallout 76 and it's many bugs, or Elite and it's stagnant gameplay, see you in the field next week.
1
Light Vs Heavy/assault
Started by JPeiper, Mar 07 2021 04:47 AM
49 replies to this topic
#2
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- The Fighter
- 966 posts
Member
Posted 07 March 2021 - 05:16 AM
Normally I would ask if you tried shooting them.
But you say you did, you just missed. So yeah, it's a skill situation.
But you say you did, you just missed. So yeah, it's a skill situation.
#3
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- Nova Captain
- 8,104 posts
Member
- LocationFrom a distance in an Urbie with a HAG, delivering righteous fury to heretics.
Posted 07 March 2021 - 05:16 AM
There's a lot of "Where did the 20-tonner touch you" joke coming in your way, so I don't want to add.
But have you considered, if you can't beat them, join them? Seems easy at first when they are beating you, until you actually try it yourself.
Though I somewhat understood your concern, the lights are kind of too brave for the game to be honest, I would argue that they are just too small, or rather in comparison, other mechs are just too big. Other than that, they seem fine.
But have you considered, if you can't beat them, join them? Seems easy at first when they are beating you, until you actually try it yourself.
Though I somewhat understood your concern, the lights are kind of too brave for the game to be honest, I would argue that they are just too small, or rather in comparison, other mechs are just too big. Other than that, they seem fine.
#4
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- Tai-sho
- 7,793 posts
Member
- LocationImperial City, Luthien - Draconis Combine
Posted 07 March 2021 - 05:52 AM
Change Arm Lock key map to Toggle Arm Lock. Difference is that Arm Lock, the mapped key had to be kept pressed down to move arms separate from torso, whereas Toggle Arm lock does as tis named, allowing a player to aim any armed mounted weapons lower than the torso-mounted weapons, and sweep lights legs.
Why not keep Arms unlocked? Torso speed is still locked at a max movement speed and precision is lost with Arms unlocked (especially with no weapons mounted) trying to line up the torso weapons. There are a number of players who have it down, but the general population should keep both as a option and use regularly, imho.
As for animation... never noticed an issue with it, which brings to question, what is your usually FPS? Hit F9 and tis in the upper left corner.
PS, hit that Enter key twice to space out the paragraphs to make it easier to read
And most would also agree that the relative mech sizes are too extreme, but more towards the top, the larger mechs should smaller.
Why not keep Arms unlocked? Torso speed is still locked at a max movement speed and precision is lost with Arms unlocked (especially with no weapons mounted) trying to line up the torso weapons. There are a number of players who have it down, but the general population should keep both as a option and use regularly, imho.
As for animation... never noticed an issue with it, which brings to question, what is your usually FPS? Hit F9 and tis in the upper left corner.
PS, hit that Enter key twice to space out the paragraphs to make it easier to read
And most would also agree that the relative mech sizes are too extreme, but more towards the top, the larger mechs should smaller.
Edited by Tarl Cabot, 07 March 2021 - 05:56 AM.
#5
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- Ace Of Spades
- 4,880 posts
Member
- LocationSmack dab in the middle of Ohio
Posted 07 March 2021 - 06:02 AM
And this is how lights are competitive. You’ve described a feature, not a bug. That said, there are two things you can do.
1 - tactics. Pick a battle buddy, fight with said battle buddy. When the light mechs come for you, turn your back to your buddy and let THEM scrape the fleas off you.
2 - positioning. If assault mechs are tanks with legs, then light mechs are fighter planes. You need a different way of moving to keep the bogey off your tail. You maneuver, and unlike a fighter combat game, you can put your back to a wall. In the same way you have to be mindful of cover and use it to avoid getting shot to pieces, you also use it to limit how the light mechs can position themselves.
And as to the light mechs legs not moving... that’s totally on your end. Check out the frame rate troubleshooting suggestion above.
1 - tactics. Pick a battle buddy, fight with said battle buddy. When the light mechs come for you, turn your back to your buddy and let THEM scrape the fleas off you.
2 - positioning. If assault mechs are tanks with legs, then light mechs are fighter planes. You need a different way of moving to keep the bogey off your tail. You maneuver, and unlike a fighter combat game, you can put your back to a wall. In the same way you have to be mindful of cover and use it to avoid getting shot to pieces, you also use it to limit how the light mechs can position themselves.
And as to the light mechs legs not moving... that’s totally on your end. Check out the frame rate troubleshooting suggestion above.
#6
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- Rage
- 9,955 posts
Member
- LocationOn the farm in central Minnesota
Posted 07 March 2021 - 06:04 AM
Watched a few matches on the competitive stream yesterday, and in one, seeing 228's Annihilators getting wrecked by a Commando and a Quarantine was a bit of a shock. The Commando in that match simply could not be killed apparently.
Point being this isn't just a skill issue of "aim better" or "just shoot them", rather it is a recognition that certain lights, especially against certain heavies/assaults, are effectively invulnerable if they can get in close and keep moving, and its up to you to decide if the risk/reward of playing those certain heavies/assaults (no arm weapons, those with blind spots, bad pitch stats, slow, etc.) are worth the risk in the game environment you are playing in. In the other three comp matches I watched, the Commandos on both teams were not dominant as the teams didn't have a propensity of slower mechs, or they didn't let their slower mechs get separated out. Both teams knew the risks and acted to mitigate them in the majority of the matches I watched.
We all know the score here. PGI isn't going to make the Flea super sized and they aren't going to change the hit boxes on the commando (or substantively change some aspect of whatever mech you care to mention to make it easier to kill). In QP If you don't want to get gimped by them, you either have to play so as to make sure you have mates who can protect you, or you bring a mech that isn't as prone to getting out dueled by a fast mover.
Point being this isn't just a skill issue of "aim better" or "just shoot them", rather it is a recognition that certain lights, especially against certain heavies/assaults, are effectively invulnerable if they can get in close and keep moving, and its up to you to decide if the risk/reward of playing those certain heavies/assaults (no arm weapons, those with blind spots, bad pitch stats, slow, etc.) are worth the risk in the game environment you are playing in. In the other three comp matches I watched, the Commandos on both teams were not dominant as the teams didn't have a propensity of slower mechs, or they didn't let their slower mechs get separated out. Both teams knew the risks and acted to mitigate them in the majority of the matches I watched.
We all know the score here. PGI isn't going to make the Flea super sized and they aren't going to change the hit boxes on the commando (or substantively change some aspect of whatever mech you care to mention to make it easier to kill). In QP If you don't want to get gimped by them, you either have to play so as to make sure you have mates who can protect you, or you bring a mech that isn't as prone to getting out dueled by a fast mover.
#7
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- Big Brother
- 139 posts
Member
- LocationStripping lasers off my Archer to fit 4 more tons of LRM'S
Posted 07 March 2021 - 06:18 AM
Sounds to me like you got separated from the pack or just had a yolo team.
When i'm in my BSW-X1 "medium" with 3 rac's, my eyes are always on the big guys backs. I can hit at range and brawl a bit with crazy dps. "Stay with the group".
It turns fast enough to keep up with the lights when they come lurking, and when they get hit with lots of dahkka they screw, fast...
When i'm in my BSW-X1 "medium" with 3 rac's, my eyes are always on the big guys backs. I can hit at range and brawl a bit with crazy dps. "Stay with the group".
It turns fast enough to keep up with the lights when they come lurking, and when they get hit with lots of dahkka they screw, fast...
#8
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- The Tip of the Spear
- 1,678 posts
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Posted 07 March 2021 - 07:27 AM
not on topic per se, but related:
MAD with 2racs.
try a mad with 3x rac2 instead. the 3 2s are much easier to handle than the 2 5s and dish out good damage.
normally I'd run med.lasers to that, but if lights continue to be your bane, maybe go for mpl or down to spl.
it's not optimal, but if that helps, it helps.
more on topic: there's a shooting range in the academy where you can train your aim; use it.
when I began I spent hours in there to get gauss+ppc right - training helps.
MAD with 2racs.
try a mad with 3x rac2 instead. the 3 2s are much easier to handle than the 2 5s and dish out good damage.
normally I'd run med.lasers to that, but if lights continue to be your bane, maybe go for mpl or down to spl.
it's not optimal, but if that helps, it helps.
more on topic: there's a shooting range in the academy where you can train your aim; use it.
when I began I spent hours in there to get gauss+ppc right - training helps.
#9
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- Little Devil
- 4,155 posts
Member
Posted 07 March 2021 - 07:47 AM
JPeiper, on 07 March 2021 - 04:47 AM, said:
I know this won't be popular but...
Just played Three games this morning. Got circle strafed to death by Two lights again. running a MAD with 2 RAC and lasers(but load out does not matter), can't even target them .Last game myself and an ANI ,both in good shape, got killed by 2 lights just running around our legs.the animation could not even keep up with the speed of these things (COM moving and turning so fast the legs did'nt move...)Yes, I know lights can be a one shot from a large mech, but all you have to do is move and keep the speed up, I've tried it and it works, dart in , get behind,slow down to stay ahead of the turning mech and keep shooting.Easy.And frustrating for the heavy pilot. I played "whack a mole" in the arcade, was crap at that too....
This has to be sorted out , it's not a skill test and I don't care if half of you think I'm crap , we ,or most of us,play this game for fun and it's not, if this carries on MWO will be dead 'cause we will not keep players, and any sales type will say it's better to keep customers than have to find new ones to replace the people who leave.
And I see the community wants to buff MG's and SM Las , well done, you'll have your backs ripped out from 300M now and circle strafing will take half as long.
This is a shame as I've never noticed aimbots or hacks in this game (glitches ,yes) and the community is (mostly) good.
To fix, slow them down and buff thier XP / cash for doing what lights do in a combined arms unit,find and spot / cap / snipe.
As far is I see it's an exploit, not a skill.
For those who dislike the above post just know I've spent this time 'cause I care about this game and it's future. I'm off now to cool down in Fallout 76 and it's many bugs, or Elite and it's stagnant gameplay, see you in the field next week.
Just played Three games this morning. Got circle strafed to death by Two lights again. running a MAD with 2 RAC and lasers(but load out does not matter), can't even target them .Last game myself and an ANI ,both in good shape, got killed by 2 lights just running around our legs.the animation could not even keep up with the speed of these things (COM moving and turning so fast the legs did'nt move...)Yes, I know lights can be a one shot from a large mech, but all you have to do is move and keep the speed up, I've tried it and it works, dart in , get behind,slow down to stay ahead of the turning mech and keep shooting.Easy.And frustrating for the heavy pilot. I played "whack a mole" in the arcade, was crap at that too....
This has to be sorted out , it's not a skill test and I don't care if half of you think I'm crap , we ,or most of us,play this game for fun and it's not, if this carries on MWO will be dead 'cause we will not keep players, and any sales type will say it's better to keep customers than have to find new ones to replace the people who leave.
And I see the community wants to buff MG's and SM Las , well done, you'll have your backs ripped out from 300M now and circle strafing will take half as long.
This is a shame as I've never noticed aimbots or hacks in this game (glitches ,yes) and the community is (mostly) good.
To fix, slow them down and buff thier XP / cash for doing what lights do in a combined arms unit,find and spot / cap / snipe.
As far is I see it's an exploit, not a skill.
For those who dislike the above post just know I've spent this time 'cause I care about this game and it's future. I'm off now to cool down in Fallout 76 and it's many bugs, or Elite and it's stagnant gameplay, see you in the field next week.
No.
The6thMessenger, on 07 March 2021 - 05:16 AM, said:
There's a lot of "Where did the 20-tonner touch you" joke coming in your way, so I don't want to add.
But have you considered, if you can't beat them, join them? Seems easy at first when they are beating you, until you actually try it yourself.
Though I somewhat understood your concern, the lights are kind of too brave for the game to be honest, I would argue that they are just too small, or rather in comparison, other mechs are just too big. Other than that, they seem fine.
But have you considered, if you can't beat them, join them? Seems easy at first when they are beating you, until you actually try it yourself.
Though I somewhat understood your concern, the lights are kind of too brave for the game to be honest, I would argue that they are just too small, or rather in comparison, other mechs are just too big. Other than that, they seem fine.
Agreed.
Its all " LIGHTMECH OP!!!!" until you actually pilot a lightmech...
#10
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- Philanthropist
- 4,478 posts
Member
- LocationSweden
Posted 07 March 2021 - 08:11 AM
That's how the tactical balance of the game is designed.
Lights can outplay heavier mechs if they catch them unsupported, but lights are also comparably weak overall so a group of heavier mechs supporting each other will beat the same number of lighter mechs.
It also depends on your build of course, if you have arm weapons that can track the lights you can kill them more easily on your own.
Your rac build is really bad against lights as well, racs are good for DPS against slow mechs. They're great and all but you need to be near teammates that are better suited to kill the lights while you keep dishing out your damage against bigger targets. The game has some role warfare believe it or not and if you often get caught in a situation your build is bad for that's probably because you need to get better at positioning.
As others have said rac5s suck and tripple rac2s are much better, so you could easily improve that build. It would still be pretty bad for killing lights though.
Lights can outplay heavier mechs if they catch them unsupported, but lights are also comparably weak overall so a group of heavier mechs supporting each other will beat the same number of lighter mechs.
It also depends on your build of course, if you have arm weapons that can track the lights you can kill them more easily on your own.
Your rac build is really bad against lights as well, racs are good for DPS against slow mechs. They're great and all but you need to be near teammates that are better suited to kill the lights while you keep dishing out your damage against bigger targets. The game has some role warfare believe it or not and if you often get caught in a situation your build is bad for that's probably because you need to get better at positioning.
As others have said rac5s suck and tripple rac2s are much better, so you could easily improve that build. It would still be pretty bad for killing lights though.
#11
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- Shredder
- 520 posts
Member
Posted 07 March 2021 - 09:06 AM
Grus, on 07 March 2021 - 07:47 AM, said:
Its all " LIGHTMECH OP!!!!" until you actually pilot a lightmech...
Light mechs are not OP - they are just disgusting. The ridiculous neck-breaking accelerations for what is supposed to be a 20 ton machine, their under-size relative to heavier mechs, they do not feel or behave like something with any kind of inertia, let alone for something weighing 20 tons. And the thing that completely kills me is flee/locust running at their full speed, completely underwater on some maps.
Yeh, I know it’s futuristic “magictech”, but my suspension of disbelief for basic physics can only take so much.
#12
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- The Hammer
- 1,246 posts
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- LocationPacifica Training School, waiting for BakPhar shares to rise
Posted 07 March 2021 - 09:26 AM
Dozer6, on 07 March 2021 - 06:18 AM, said:
Sounds to me like you got separated from the pack or just had a yolo team.
My guess would be the former — OP set up to plink away from a distance and a few lights did their job in ferreting it out.
#13
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- Mercenary Rank 10
- 3,629 posts
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Posted 07 March 2021 - 11:18 AM
JPeiper, on 07 March 2021 - 04:47 AM, said:
I know this won't be popular but...
Just played Three games this morning. Got circle strafed to death by Two lights again. running a MAD with 2 RAC and lasers(but load out does not matter), can't even target them .Last game myself and an ANI ,both in good shape, got killed by 2 lights just running around our legs.the animation could not even keep up with the speed of these things (COM moving and turning so fast the legs did'nt move...)Yes, I know lights can be a one shot from a large mech, but all you have to do is move and keep the speed up, I've tried it and it works, dart in , get behind,slow down to stay ahead of the turning mech and keep shooting.Easy.And frustrating for the heavy pilot. I played "whack a mole" in the arcade, was crap at that too....
This has to be sorted out , it's not a skill test and I don't care if half of you think I'm crap , we ,or most of us,play this game for fun and it's not, if this carries on MWO will be dead 'cause we will not keep players, and any sales type will say it's better to keep customers than have to find new ones to replace the people who leave.
And I see the community wants to buff MG's and SM Las , well done, you'll have your backs ripped out from 300M now and circle strafing will take half as long.
This is a shame as I've never noticed aimbots or hacks in this game (glitches ,yes) and the community is (mostly) good.
To fix, slow them down and buff thier XP / cash for doing what lights do in a combined arms unit,find and spot / cap / snipe.
As far is I see it's an exploit, not a skill.
For those who dislike the above post just know I've spent this time 'cause I care about this game and it's future. I'm off now to cool down in Fallout 76 and it's many bugs, or Elite and it's stagnant gameplay, see you in the field next week.
Just played Three games this morning. Got circle strafed to death by Two lights again. running a MAD with 2 RAC and lasers(but load out does not matter), can't even target them .Last game myself and an ANI ,both in good shape, got killed by 2 lights just running around our legs.the animation could not even keep up with the speed of these things (COM moving and turning so fast the legs did'nt move...)Yes, I know lights can be a one shot from a large mech, but all you have to do is move and keep the speed up, I've tried it and it works, dart in , get behind,slow down to stay ahead of the turning mech and keep shooting.Easy.And frustrating for the heavy pilot. I played "whack a mole" in the arcade, was crap at that too....
This has to be sorted out , it's not a skill test and I don't care if half of you think I'm crap , we ,or most of us,play this game for fun and it's not, if this carries on MWO will be dead 'cause we will not keep players, and any sales type will say it's better to keep customers than have to find new ones to replace the people who leave.
And I see the community wants to buff MG's and SM Las , well done, you'll have your backs ripped out from 300M now and circle strafing will take half as long.
This is a shame as I've never noticed aimbots or hacks in this game (glitches ,yes) and the community is (mostly) good.
To fix, slow them down and buff thier XP / cash for doing what lights do in a combined arms unit,find and spot / cap / snipe.
As far is I see it's an exploit, not a skill.
For those who dislike the above post just know I've spent this time 'cause I care about this game and it's future. I'm off now to cool down in Fallout 76 and it's many bugs, or Elite and it's stagnant gameplay, see you in the field next week.
These statements are contradictory. You say people want to play for fun but you want remove a lot of the fun from lights. Most players don't find holding locks fun, capping is only fun when you get to fight over the cap, so that only leaves sniping which I think most players prefer bigger mechs for.
Also lights are the lowest performing class in the game. The only fixes they need are buffs, or nerfs to the actual absurd things in game like streaks being anti-light for some reason, and target spotted command letting you track mechs where you usually wouldn't be able to.
#14
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- FP Veteran - Beta 1
- 1,731 posts
Member
Posted 07 March 2021 - 11:21 AM
Half the people complain that lights are OP; half the people complain that lights are UP. Balance.
#15
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- Survivor
- 5,122 posts
Member
Posted 07 March 2021 - 11:29 AM
To be fair. If they can't maneuver fast enough. They get instagibbed. So it's a trade off. And for all the good lights. There's a lot of lights that get relegated to uselessness. But then a lot of mechs could use a requirkening to be relevant again.
#16
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- Bad Company
- 2,049 posts
Member
Posted 07 March 2021 - 11:54 AM
.2 Cbills input: I've been on both sides of this as well. I slowly stripped a poor kodiak that couldn't turn fast enough to catch my lightly armed spl/mg raven 4X, his team essentially abandoned him. I've been in my slow boat to heck annie without a wall near me to save my butt.
Of course luck can go anywhere. I've also been lrm'd to death crossing to citadel in river city in a mobile assault before the timer hit 2 minutes in [yay... my first honest 0 damage game I didn't DC in] and I've both popped running lights and been one shot in a light mech at full armor. There is a legit rush from firing a dual gauss in no damage head of a mech and it turns out they stripped down armor to min/max. Its soooooo nice when it happens. to the enemy. Not to you XD.
Honestly the best I can say is if you're in a marauder, with that load out, based off my "try to be TT friendly with the engine and armor" RACx3 plus some med lazor marauder, you should be able to hit 64kph without trouble. It sounds like you were way out in the boonies without support coming to save your butt. Like I said above about my slow boat Annie: hug walls, or the commando go commando on your butt
TL;DR version: stick near the group, stick near walls, Dont get separated from the Murderball, personal experience on the third one and lots of going to spectator mode early.
Of course luck can go anywhere. I've also been lrm'd to death crossing to citadel in river city in a mobile assault before the timer hit 2 minutes in [yay... my first honest 0 damage game I didn't DC in] and I've both popped running lights and been one shot in a light mech at full armor. There is a legit rush from firing a dual gauss in no damage head of a mech and it turns out they stripped down armor to min/max. Its soooooo nice when it happens. to the enemy. Not to you XD.
Honestly the best I can say is if you're in a marauder, with that load out, based off my "try to be TT friendly with the engine and armor" RACx3 plus some med lazor marauder, you should be able to hit 64kph without trouble. It sounds like you were way out in the boonies without support coming to save your butt. Like I said above about my slow boat Annie: hug walls, or the commando go commando on your butt
TL;DR version: stick near the group, stick near walls, Dont get separated from the Murderball, personal experience on the third one and lots of going to spectator mode early.
#17
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- Legendary Founder
- 4,087 posts
Member
- LocationLost in my C1
Posted 07 March 2021 - 11:57 AM
working as made. You with a mech that carries an ac that weights more than a light without ammo should have to aim better to kill a one-shot light. If lct/fle with xls were so great the light class wouldn't be the one people play the least.
Size wise many lights are too dam tall and fat like a Jenner vs a lct. If you can't aim use the one weapon that insta-kills lights:ssrms 6x2 or more.
Size wise many lights are too dam tall and fat like a Jenner vs a lct. If you can't aim use the one weapon that insta-kills lights:ssrms 6x2 or more.
#18
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- Overlord
- 1,659 posts
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Posted 07 March 2021 - 11:58 AM
Problem with lights is some are just insanely good like the Piranha, or dumpster fire tier like Firestarters. When they rescaled the hitboxes so many lights became straight up victims.
Also just not enough diversity in light gameplay they are either terrors that eat out the back of your assaults or someone gets a solid shot and blows em apart in 1 hit. OR you have a player like my friend that always brings out a streak laden stormcrow and sends em packing in the first few minutes of the game.
Also just not enough diversity in light gameplay they are either terrors that eat out the back of your assaults or someone gets a solid shot and blows em apart in 1 hit. OR you have a player like my friend that always brings out a streak laden stormcrow and sends em packing in the first few minutes of the game.
#19
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- Ace Of Spades
- 3,018 posts
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- LocationBehind You
Posted 07 March 2021 - 12:42 PM
Two lights didn't kill you op. Two mech pilots cooperating to always keep one untargeted and shooting you is what killed you. They would have done the same in fast mediums or heavies or even possibly assaults.
#20
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- Ace Of Spades
- 3,585 posts
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Posted 07 March 2021 - 01:23 PM
With this game's spotty netcode the only defense against lights is teamwork, but even having a single teammate covering you can shut down lights very easily.
It can make for frustrating gameplay for both sides honestly. Piloting an assault it can seem unfair when you get caught alone. Piloting a light it can seem unfair when you encounter teams that dont split up at all, and suddenly you feel like a nuisance to the enemy or useless to your team. If teams stick together and the game gets brawly, the side with more lights can be at a huge disadvantage. If the game takes a long time or if teams get spread out, lights can absolutely ruin people.
It can make for frustrating gameplay for both sides honestly. Piloting an assault it can seem unfair when you get caught alone. Piloting a light it can seem unfair when you encounter teams that dont split up at all, and suddenly you feel like a nuisance to the enemy or useless to your team. If teams stick together and the game gets brawly, the side with more lights can be at a huge disadvantage. If the game takes a long time or if teams get spread out, lights can absolutely ruin people.
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