71 replies to this topic

[Elizander]

SRMs now nearly have double the fire rate of ppcs?

So double ppc mech hits for 24 and takes 100 damage from quad srm?

Edited by Elizander, 15 March 2021 - 11:34 PM.

[RJF Volkodav]

PGI just do not understand what they are doing. They say that they do not like boating, but with this patch they are going to boost heat capped quad ERPPC mechs so they'll do 50+ pinpoint shooting 2+2 with a higher sustained DPS than pre-patch and with that they'll nerf dual ERPPC mechs which are not heat capped by 20% of their DPS. Nice try, so typical.

[LordNothing]

dps was never a good balance handle for the ppcs (except the light). its not a weapon you ever use at its maximum dps, you would just turn to slag or spend a lot of time shut down in combat if you did that.

i also only really had problems with 2 of them, the light and the snub. the snub needed either 2 points of splash to justify the extra heat over the std ppc, or a direct heat buff. the light needed a role. i used them a lot on hit and run light and medium builds and practically nowhere else. they could have used a 0.5 cd buff, and maybe a small heat nerf so it doesnt obsolete std ppc or hppc when boated in 2s and 3s respectively. i used the 3x lppc on my street cleaner, fired in similar fashion to uacs, mostly to save a ton.

cerppc is a jack of all trades, where the is side used a role based differentiation, and this takes it away.

i have an idea, lets call all these snipebuffed ppcs as ppc with capacitor, restore the original versions with tweaks as above/from gulag and call it a weapons pack.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 March 2021 - 03:20 AM.

[LordNothing]

Nightbird, on 15 March 2021 - 01:52 PM, said:

Only disagree on the MASC change, accel boost was untouched so my flea will be humping legs just fine (still dumb mechanic but w/e at this point)

all my exes just went into mothballs. without the extra mobility afforded to it by masc, its just another slow knuckledragging fatmech.

[The pessimistic optimist]

RJF Volkodav, on 16 March 2021 - 01:37 AM, said:

PGI just do not understand what they are doing. They say that they do not like boating, but with this patch they are going to boost heat capped quad ERPPC mechs so they'll do 50+ pinpoint shooting 2+2 with a higher sustained DPS than pre-patch and with that they'll nerf dual ERPPC mechs which are not heat capped by 20% of their DPS. Nice try, so typical.

I think they do thats the point it's a nerf and a buff. No long jack of all trades but they are better long range trading weapons now but poor CQC weapons now.

[LordNothing]

The Lobsters, on 15 March 2021 - 03:08 PM, said:

Indeed.

Also, top players have a tendency to balance to entrench a status quo that they play the best at, and miss opportunities to break it. See TheMittani/Goonswarm's bleats about nullsec changes in Eve Online a few years back.

There's a lot of negativity at the top of this page. I'm not that surprised PGI haven't bought it.

im usually skeptical about the gulag but i have to agree with the op here. nobody asked for this. all these weapons that i used as not sniper weapons are now sniper weapons. and sniping is the second most boring thing to lerming. its not only anti-gulag, its anti-fun as well. the ppcs were fine too, the snub needed a small buff and the light needed a role beyond squirrel ppc, and that was the only complaints i had about the entire ppc line.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 March 2021 - 03:43 AM.

[LordNothing]

Kiran Yagami, on 15 March 2021 - 04:29 PM, said:

How does the Gulag entrench the status quo? It's the patch coming that entrenches the status quo. The best weapons in the game, ISMPLs, go untouched. The worst weapons in the game, every other form of laser vomit, go untouched. Bad weapons, like gauss rifles, get nerfed even harder. The only good clan weapon, the cERPPC, becomes only viable on mechs capable of using 3 or more. That's your Vapor Eagles, Warhawks, and Mad Cats. Congratulations, your patch is the one entrenching the status quo. If you think this is somehow shaking up the meta, then you have no idea what the meta is.

from a refunning perspective, the gulag numbers are better than this. now we got a whole lotta sniper weapons which make the game boring. no more sustained ppc barrages at medium range. the ace run i did in the supernova is now impossible to repeat. i give the gulag a hard time with my skepticism, but they never broke the game. pgi does it almost every patch cycle.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 March 2021 - 04:00 AM.

[Breidr]

YueFei, on 15 March 2021 - 10:58 PM, said:

A game that's well balanced, where every weapon and every robot is strong and has its place, is far more diverse. The comp guys aren't effected as much by out-of-whack balance, they'll just pick whatever's strongest and roll with it, they aren't emotionally attached to a particular style. They might have their preferences, but at the end of the day, for them it's just all about finding a way to win.

It's the casual player that's hurt the most by crappy weapons and crappy robots. The dude who picks a robot because it looks cool, and sticks guns on it that suit his style... then goes out and gets smashed over and over again because he happened to be unlucky and picked a robot that sucks and slapped guns on it that suck. Or it used to be a good combo, but PGI doesn't understand nuanced balance changes and nerfed the crap out of it. He's a casual player who doesn't even read the patch notes, but he logs in and all of a sudden his mech moves like a tortoise on its back and his pew-pew doesn't seem to scare anybody anymore...

I've told people this before: I introduced a friend to this game long ago, and he played competitive CS:GO, so he's not a potato when it comes to FPS. But for MWO, he just picked it up to play on a casual level with me. He decided to go for a brawling playstyle, and was having fun. Then PGI nerfed AC20 velocity, and made SRMs 1.5 damage per missile. He quit the game and never came back. Plenty of other video games out there where it's well balanced for various playstyles where he can get the gaming fix he wants. The casual player isn't so heavily invested into the game that they'll spend the time adapting... they'll just leave.

PGI has made this kind of error over and over and over again, and they'll just hemorrhage players every time they do it.

This is pretty much how I feel. Instead of achieving balance, they're just taking more toys away. I hate LRMs, but I've learned to deal with them. I don't want them taken away, just like I don't want gauss to go away. I want MORE toys!

Silver lining, these changes might encourage more brawling, which seems absent in T5, at least for me.

Everyone is too scared to scratch their paint, then one side loses 2 mechs and it snowballs, yawn.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Breidr, on 16 March 2021 - 03:54 AM, said:

This is pretty much how I feel. Instead of achieving balance, they're just taking more toys away. I hate LRMs, but I've learned to deal with them. I don't want them taken away, just like I don't want gauss to go away. I want MORE toys!

Silver lining, these changes might encourage more brawling, which seems absent in T5, at least for me.

Everyone is too scared to scratch their paint, then one side loses 2 mechs and it snowballs, yawn.

Like someone point out before its a nerf and a buff. So it gains something and loses something. Now you can't debate if they good or bad but it not like the PPC just got nerfed and that is it.

[LordNothing]

MyriadDigits, on 15 March 2021 - 09:01 PM, said:

Meta: UAC5/UAC10, cERPPC, LRM, ATM, AC2, IS-MPL

PGI: Nerf Gauss, nerf Light Gauss, nerf PPC family so only boating on larger mechs is viable, mild AC2 buff, don't touch UAC5/UAC10, don't touch IS-MPL, don't touch LRM, don't touch ATM

Gulag: Buff Gauss, buff Light Gauss, buff IS PPC family, buff RAC5, nerf ATM, nerf LRM, nerf UAC5/UAC10, buff AC20, buff every laser except IS-MPL.

Hmm yes Gulag is totally after preserving status quo, and not after increasing the viability of underperformers to be able to compete with the current strong weapons. /s

i like the top where it is balance wise. now they need to pull from the bottom. meta makes waves, bad stuff sits in mothballs at the back of your mech hanger and the dusty corners of the armory. its the case of the silent wheel needing grease. don't touch anything anyone is talking about, unless they are talking about how bad it is.

the thing about the status quo is that neither approach changes it. the status quo is as it is because pgi is unwilling to invest time, talent, money, etc, into significant change. its always late, slow, not enough, and never gets a follow up pass. the game needs to make all the bad mechs and weapons viable so they can sell them to new players for $$$. the game needs new sources of novelty for us grognards, we are even willing to pay for them if its something we want. if you want to re-fun the game you need to add fun things to the game. why cant we have vectorable jump jets for horizontal jumping, why cant we get new weapon mechanics, or improve the mechanics of existing weapons? why cant we have aoe weapons or tag steerable missiles? these things are fun. do fun things with the game.

[The pessimistic optimist]

MyriadDigits, on 15 March 2021 - 09:01 PM, said:

Meta: UAC5/UAC10, cERPPC, LRM, ATM, AC2, IS-MPL

PGI: Nerf Gauss, nerf Light Gauss, nerf PPC family so only boating on larger mechs is viable, mild AC2 buff, don't touch UAC5/UAC10, don't touch IS-MPL, don't touch LRM, don't touch ATM

Gulag: Buff Gauss, buff Light Gauss, buff IS PPC family, buff RAC5, nerf ATM, nerf LRM, nerf UAC5/UAC10, buff AC20, buff every laser except IS-MPL.

Hmm yes Gulag is totally after preserving status quo, and not after increasing the viability of underperformers to be able to compete with the current strong weapons. /s

I have no idea this these changes will be good or not but over all people like to protect their meta and the status quo I like my game please don't change it. I can understand that but doesn't mean its healthy for the game

Edited by SirSmokes, 16 March 2021 - 04:41 AM.

[LordNothing]

MyriadDigits, on 15 March 2021 - 09:47 PM, said:

A-Tier on grimmechs :/

Also tbh have you seen LRM in low tiers? Its downright disgusting.

this is why the corsair 7a is my top mech right now. when im in that thing i want to get lermed, because it will ******* double my match score.

[The Lobsters]

LordNothing, on 16 March 2021 - 03:41 AM, said:

im usually skeptical about the gulag but i have to agree with the op here. nobody asked for this. all these weapons that i used as not sniper weapons are now sniper weapons. and sniping is the second most boring thing to lerming. its not only anti-gulag, its anti-fun as well. the ppcs were fine too, the snub needed a small buff and the light needed a role beyond squirrel ppc, and that was the only complaints i had about the entire ppc line.

I hear ya, and I'm not saying pgi's patch is perfect in any way. I will say that I've never found dealing with snipers to be much of a problem, they're rubbish once you get under their guns, and getting to that position was a lot of fun and made for some tense games. They made their choices when the dropped in that build.

All I'm really saying is that we used to have games that had different tactical periods, and that created more useful roles. Some of Gulag changes are good, some I don't agree with. They make for great 8v8 mid range smash gameplay, but I would prefer more diverse gameplay. I don't agree with dropping weapon specific quirks in most cases, for example

I come to MWO as a simmer, rather than a FPS gamer background, so that may colour my outlook somewhat. I want longer games, more rock. scissors paper, more distinct tactical roles, not better twitch fps.

Edited by The Lobsters, 16 March 2021 - 04:48 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

LordNothing, on 16 March 2021 - 04:42 AM, said:

this is why the corsair 7a is my top mech right now. when im in that thing i want to get lermed, because it will ******* double my match score.

Yea no joke you take 7A everyone on team is happy you are there and you have many friends

[LordNothing]

The Lobsters, on 16 March 2021 - 04:43 AM, said:

I hear ya, and I'm not saying pgi's patch is perfect in any way. I will say that I've never found dealing with snipers to be much of a problem, they're rubbish once you get under their guns, and getting to that position was a lot of fun and made for some tense games. They made their choices when the dropped in that build.

All I'm really saying is that we used to have games that had different tactical periods, and that created more useful roles. Some of Gulag changes are good, some I don't agree with. They make for great 8v8 mid range smash gameplay, but I would prefer more diverse gameplay. I don't agree with dropping weapon specific quirks in most cases, for example

I come to MWO as a simmer, rather than a FPS gamer background, so that may colour my outlook somewhat. I want longer games, more rock. scissors paper, more distinct tactical roles, not better twitch fps.

yea im kind of the opinion that battletech as a dice game was an abstraction of a more realistic simulation. and that making a game based on a dice game was like reinventing the wheel, instead you look at what the bt designers were trying to abstract and you simulate that. like using the tag as a buff for locks, thats got dice game written all over that. dice game was trying to represent laser designators like what you find in the military, but in a simulation you can have a laser designator, and you dont need to play the stats game.

get rid of all the rng calls. your guns should jam because you abused them, not because of a dice roll. why have a chance to crit out a weapon or heat sink, why not have actual bounding boxes inside the mesh, for weapons in can coincide with the hard point, heat sinks, anywhere there is a vent. if you hit one while the armor is out, you crit that weapon installed there. that lets you target things you want deleted and shoot them off. jump jets should be physics based. use deterministic methods whenever possible.

an idea for mwo2 is to actually have the internals of the mech modeled, so as you melt away armor you reveal things you can shoot out. trying to hit the fusion engine through a hole you just made in the armor would be fun as hell. oh look, an ammo bit *BOOM*. mechwarrior would have a lot of potential if they could look past what the tt game was into what the original designers were trying to express with the table top and dice medium. copy the intent not the execution.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 March 2021 - 05:09 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

LordNothing, on 16 March 2021 - 05:08 AM, said:

yea im kind of the opinion that battletech as a dice game was an abstraction of a more realistic simulation. and that making a game based on a dice game was like reinventing the wheel, instead you look at what the bt designers were trying to abstract and you simulate that.

*DING* saying that for years. It's not the numbers but what they are trying to simulate

Edited by SirSmokes, 16 March 2021 - 05:12 AM.

[D A T A]

Please remain consistent with the main topic.
[redacted]

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 16 March 2021 - 06:19 AM.

[LordNothing]

D A T A, on 16 March 2021 - 05:16 AM, said:

Please remain consistent with the main topic.
[redacted]

what did i miss? lol.

didnt mean to steal your thread, just replying to interesting posts one often finds in these kinds of things. between this and the gulag i want the gulag.

[YueFei]

LordNothing, on 16 March 2021 - 03:25 AM, said:

all my exes just went into mothballs. without the extra mobility afforded to it by masc, its just another slow knuckledragging fatmech.

Yeah typical PGI un-funning. Even if they wanted to reduce the turn-rate boost from MASC, why turn it from a bonus into a negative?

[The pessimistic optimist]

YueFei, on 16 March 2021 - 07:01 AM, said:

Yeah typical PGI un-funning. Even if they wanted to reduce the turn-rate boost from MASC, why turn it from a bonus into a negative?

Unfun if you have a boring mind. I already got idea how to make most of these changes. I see nothing but opportunity here. Think out side the box for once in your life. Not trying to be a **** here but people get so set in there ways and they get in these little mental silo they can't get out of.

Edited by SirSmokes, 16 March 2021 - 07:07 AM.