400 replies to this topic

[JediPanther]

Meh Another REscale. Which lights shall get trash tier and mothballed this time?

[The6thMessenger]

JediPanther, on 19 March 2021 - 02:40 PM, said:

Meh Another REscale. Which lights shall get trash tier and mothballed this time?

Don't worry, Navid knows what he's doing.

PGI? Not so much.

[JediPanther]

The6thMessenger, on 19 March 2021 - 02:45 PM, said:

Don't worry, Navid knows what he's doing.

PGI? Not so much.

Exactly my point. Pgi ultimately is the one with control. We know their history all too well.

[Nightbird]

Lockheed_, on 19 March 2021 - 03:01 PM, said:

And they were very keen to remind us of that lately.
I can picture it already, PTS goes up pretty much like suggested from the gulag, then after some testing and overwhelmingly positive feedback the patch finally comes to the live servers and right before release Chris is gonna have the last word and mess up everything again, next big exodus happens, PGI wonders why their customers keep leaving.

The exodus will happen regardless, so it would be nice if we get this set of proposals on live before it happens so that we know spreadsheet tweaks can only go so far.

[McGosy]

Gulag goood::)7

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 19 March 2021 - 03:07 PM, said:

The exodus will happen regardless, so it would be nice if we get this set of proposals on live before it happens so that we know spreadsheet tweaks can only go so far.

I mean there was a series of changes followed by almost everyone I know leaving the game so this isn't really accurate.

[Nightbird]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 March 2021 - 04:35 PM, said:

I mean there was a series of changes followed by almost everyone I know leaving the game so this isn't really accurate.

I'll follow up in 5 months...

[feeWAIVER]

I don't want to be a stick in the mud. I'll be happy to playtest this, but looking at all these damage, cooldown, and heat buffs- and imagining each one being multiplied exponentially in a 12 man team, I expect TTK to sink like a rock- especially if this comes before agility buffs and rescaling.

I almost believe PGI is willing to put this on the test server just so they can say "We told you so".

[HartAtak]

feeWAIVER, on 19 March 2021 - 05:18 PM, said:

I don't want to be a stick in the mud. I'll be happy to playtest this, but looking at all these damage, cooldown, and heat buffs- and imagining each one being multiplied exponentially in a 12 man team, I expect TTK to sink like a rock- especially if this comes before agility buffs and rescaling.

I almost believe PGI is willing to put this on the test server just so they can say "We told you so".

I think this is a valid concern. The changes proposed by the Gulag would have been developed with the interactions between weapon and mech changes taken into account. Testing only the weapon changes in isolation may not give a true representation of the result that the Gulag are seeking via the complete set of changes.

Unfortunately it sounds like a compromise that the Gulag had to accept from PGI.

[Navid A1]

feeWAIVER, on 19 March 2021 - 05:18 PM, said:

I don't want to be a stick in the mud. I'll be happy to playtest this, but looking at all these damage, cooldown, and heat buffs- and imagining each one being multiplied exponentially in a 12 man team, I expect TTK to sink like a rock- especially if this comes before agility buffs and rescaling.

I almost believe PGI is willing to put this on the test server just so they can say "We told you so".

The pace and time to kill won't change much. At least that's what I think.
These changes are made to create multiple alternatives to certain already dominant roles and playstyles.... note that dominant weapon systems are not changed at all (e.g., UAC5/10, C-ERPPC, IS MPL).

And most of the buffs are done to promote brawling.


Agility buffs and re-scale are coming too.

Edited by Navid A1, 19 March 2021 - 05:45 PM.

[HartAtak]

Navid A1, on 19 March 2021 - 05:44 PM, said:

The pace and time to kill won't change much. At least that's what I think.
These changes are made to create multiple alternatives to certain already dominant roles and playstyles.... note that dominant weapon systems are not changed at all (e.g., UAC5/10, C-ERPPC, IS MPL).

And most of the buffs are done to promote brawling.


Agility buffs and re-scale are coming too.

Navid - noted your reply and I can sort of understand the thought process. In that case, it seems that the TTK is expected to increase once the mech changes (agility, quirks) are layered on top? I don’t have a preference one way or other, just wanted to understand the intent/philosophy.

[GaelicWolf]

First of all let me start by saying that I appreciate the work that the Gulag has done in an attempt to improve the game far beyond what PGI is willing (or capable) to do.

But....

I fear that the changes that are being proposed are aimed primarily at the comp scene(subconsciously or not).

[Navid A1]

HartAtak, on 19 March 2021 - 05:54 PM, said:

Navid - noted your reply and I can sort of understand the thought process. In that case, it seems that the TTK is expected to increase once the mech changes (agility, quirks) are layered on top? I don’t have a preference one way or other, just wanted to understand the intent/philosophy.

That's correct... agility and re-scale are going to be game changers.
The current TTK in the game right now will more or less stay the same

Re-scale and agility buffs is going to increase it.

In simple terms, the idea is like this:

- Shooting weapons is fun
- Having useful various weapons is more fun
- Don't take away the fun... but make it so that enemy can't pinpoint your CT (which is already the case in the game) by having good agility and making mechs smaller across the board.

Edited by Navid A1, 19 March 2021 - 07:04 PM.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

JediPanther, on 19 March 2021 - 02:40 PM, said:

Meh Another REscale. Which lights shall get trash tier and mothballed this time?

Mech recale isn't part of this Gulag PTS, its only weapon balance.

[Gas Guzzler]

GaelicWolf, on 19 March 2021 - 06:07 PM, said:

First of all let me start by saying that I appreciate the work that the Gulag has done in an attempt to improve the game far beyond what PGI is willing (or capable) to do.

But....

I fear that the changes that are being proposed are aimed primarily at the comp scene(subconsciously or not).

What does that even mean? Can you explain that?

[PocketYoda]

Everyone migrates to the Gulag PTS, MWO standard dies..

Gas Guzzler, on 19 March 2021 - 08:22 PM, said:

What does that even mean? Can you explain that?

It means it favors the top tier meta not the casual meta.. which means the casual game play will suffer because the tiers games are not at all the same game play or style for better or worse either way.

Also not all MWO customers ever want to get to tier 1 because it would ruin their enjoyment of MWO. I know Top tier people will be surprised and shocked by these remarks but its true for many of us.

feeWAIVER, on 19 March 2021 - 05:18 PM, said:

I don't want to be a stick in the mud. I'll be happy to playtest this, but looking at all these damage, cooldown, and heat buffs- and imagining each one being multiplied exponentially in a 12 man team, I expect TTK to sink like a rock- especially if this comes before agility buffs and rescaling.

I almost believe PGI is willing to put this on the test server just so they can say "We told you so".

I for one am happy if the TTK drops like a rock.. For me personally the TTK is incredibly too fast and not fun at all but that's my opinion.

Edited by Samial, 19 March 2021 - 08:43 PM.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

Navid A1, on 19 March 2021 - 12:48 PM, said:

4 second was the original cooldown for IS Gauss before PGI nerf'd it hard.

We can give it a test.

I want to like this, but if Light Gauss cooldown gets bumped up to 3.5 and stays there, it's probably going back in storage again if regular Gauss is only half a second longer.

[Navid A1]

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 19 March 2021 - 08:54 PM, said:

I want to like this, but if Light Gauss cooldown gets bumped up to 3.5 and stays there, it's probably going back in storage again if regular Gauss is only half a second longer.

anywhere between 4 to 4.5 would be ok... we'll probably test a 4.25.

Also remember that Light Gauss would no longer be linked in ghost heat system... so you can fire them along PPC family at the same time with no heat penalty...
Also Gauss is heavier and larger than LGR... so.

[XX Sulla XX]

Navid A1, on 19 March 2021 - 07:02 PM, said:

That's correct... agility and re-scale are going to be game changers.
The current TTK in the game right now will more or less stay the same

Re-scale and agility buffs is going to increase it.

In simple terms, the idea is like this:

- Shooting weapons is fun
- Having useful various weapons is more fun
- Don't take away the fun... but make it so that enemy can't pinpoint your CT (which is already the case in the game) by having good agility and making mechs smaller across the board.

This exactly this.

[ccrider]

I'm not going to crap on the idea of weapon changes suggested by ya'll, but if TTK is directly linked to agility buffs and re-scale, wouldn't it be better to petition that the PTS be delayed until all 3 things can be implemented into it at once? If you truly want unbiased feedback, buffing weapons without the other corresponding changes just seems counter-intuitive. Currently, certain mechs are so big and sluggish that any increase to damage output is going to further the idea that they are trash. If peoples favorite robots seem like trash, everything else will be judged against that standard and changes people may be fine with will instead be viewed in a negative light. If the PTS makes it seem like only certain mechs are viable, a lot of people will immediately respond that the weapons are bad and all that work goes for nought. I'd caution against rushing into a test that only includes 1/3 of the variables; I know it's exciting to think PGI is giving you a shot to prove your numbers but going in without all variables on the board is just knee capping yourself before a race.