114 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

No, this ain't an LRM OP thread. But given the PTS by the Gulag, and their apparent reworking of UACs, which I like, maybe we could also fix other problematic mechanics in the game.

One of the people in the Comp, I don't want to point names, and hopefully it's not offensive to mention his statement which might make him identifiable, he told me that Homing Weapons in general, are "Bully weapons".

Honestly, I was like "wow seriously?" in disbelief, for while homing weapons do offer near 100% chance to land due to basically being autoaim homing-weapons, you have the capacity to break lock anyways. If you don't have the skills to use cover, there's always AMS cover. Compared to bonafide direct-fire weapons, if you can land your shots anyways you're just jumping through of maintaining locks and slower projectile speed than lets say a PPC, but it's much more accessible to those of low aim skill.

That being said, and let me be perfectly clear, I agree, somewhat. It can be oppressive to get narced in the middle of Polar Highlands, around hungry hungry LRM boats and there's NOTHING you can do about it -- you can hide under ECM cover, yeah, but in many cases it's just LRMs that will blot out the sun. It's a mechanic, that if you get this right, can be downright unfair.

Maybe it's time to have some sort of mechanic rework, or re-niching of homing weapons?

Your Thoughts?

Addenum:

Quote

in real wars artillery wins wars and is responsible for like 90% of kills.
it wins wars because it is inherently unfair and renders troops on the ground irrelevant and powerless. you want to be as unfair as possible to win a war.

despite this, indirect fire is pretty much nonexistent in wargames, especially first person ones, exactly because the indiscriminate and unfair nature of it that renders the individual soldier (or mech) impotent is very much not fun or suited for gaming.

Would fit great into a horror game though.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 19 March 2021 - 01:27 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Here's Idea to start for LRMs.

Quote

LRM CHANGES:


> IDF Angle now requires NARC or TAG effects
> Frontload Damage - +30% damage, +40% CD IS; +20% damage, +30% CD Clans
> NARC: -35% Duration, +35% ammo/ton.

Spoiler

> LRM5
- Damage: 1.3 x 5 = 6.5
- Heat: 2.86
- CD: 4.875
- DPS: 1.3333

> LRM10
- Damage: 1.3 x 10 = 13
- Heat: 4.68
- CD: 5.18s
- DPS: 2.51

> LRM15
- Damage: 1.3 x 15 = 19.5
- Heat: 5.85
- CD: 5.6s
- DPS: 3.48

> LRM20
- Damage: 1.3 x 20 = 26
- Heat: 7.02
- CD: 6.00s
- DPS: 4.3333

> LRM/Ton: 150

> CLRM5
- Damage: 1.2 x 5 = 6
- Heat: 2.88
- CD: 4.55s
- DPS: 1.26

> CLRM10
- Damage: 1.2 x 10 = 12
- Heat: 4.8
- CD: 5.2s
- DPS: 2.11

> CLRM15
- Damage: 1.2 x 15 = 18
- Heat: 6
- CD: 5.59s
- DPS: 2.84

> CLRM20
- Damage: 1.2 x 5 = 24
- Heat: 7.2
- CD: 6.0s
- DPS: 3.42

> C-LRM ammo/Ton: 150

The point of this, is much like PPCs this march patch. And while that sounds awful, it is because it is. What happened to PPCs this patch is made it more all or nothing, much more unforgiving if you miss. And this is exactly the same thought.

LRMs always had been about high dps/ton, and is about throwing a LOT of LRMs in the air for effect. By frontloading LRMs, it requires better skill now, with less hits it can feel less oppressive.

The additional changes to NARC and TAG is to push the IDF role from that of LRMs to the spotter tool's instead, giving them the niche because that is the only way you can IDF effectively. People just cannot easily circumvent your cover, not without proper spotters. And because it requires proper spotters, now it means that it can easily be countered by disabling the spotter.

The NARC in particular would have reduced duration, but increased ammo. This makes players peek more, and make IDFing more brief.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 19 March 2021 - 01:20 AM.

[LordNothing]

if you make lerms more mwll-like. i think they really nailed it. the general electronic warfare was also great and made role warrior possible.

Edited by LordNothing, 19 March 2021 - 12:59 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Well I'm personally fine with lrm as they stand but then again I like to lrm boat so there is some bias to any changes. It's already hard to use them on the tight cramped maps especially those like solaris city and they only really shine when you get some open ones and an enemy team that isn't boating ams with a ton of ecm mechs. I think most of the seeking missile hate is generated on polar highlands to be honest since all the other maps tend to have sufficient cover to block incoming fire if you can't break the lock. Polar highlands is just a killing ground for any indirect fire weapon.

[Kroete]

The6thMessenger, on 19 March 2021 - 12:34 AM, said:

It can be oppressive to get narced in the middle of Polar Highlands, around hungry hungry LRM boats and there's NOTHING you can do about it -- you can hide under ECM cover, yeah, but in many cases it's just LRMs that will blot out the sun. It's a mechanic, that if you get this right, can be downright unfair.

Ams helps against narc, two ams makes you unstickable against narc beacons.
Maybe try it by yourself?
So we are back too: No ams, no cry!

Edited by Kroete, 19 March 2021 - 01:23 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Kroete, on 19 March 2021 - 01:22 AM, said:

Ams helps against narc, two ams kills every narcbeacon.
Maybe try it by yourself?
So we are back too: No ams, no cry!

That's just an example of things that can happen.

You don't need to accuse or imply shortcoming in my part.

[Fae Puka]

LRM/ATM were hammered not that long back, with faster lock breaking times, arc changes that plunge missiles into the terrain because of a few degree variation in positioning and the massive reduction in target reticule lock area and time it takes to get a lock.

There's no need at present to mess with them any more. Most likely what you are seeing is the fall back to missile use because of the beating the main stay weapons are taking - lets fix the update first before calling in more disruption to other systems.

Interesting that this person refers to missiles as "bullying weapons" when we all know what its like to be on the end of ac/lbx/rac fire that completely obscures the cockpit regardless of where the shells are hitting the mech . . .

[Gagis]

Indirect fire is incredibly hard to balance. Let me explain my perspective on why that is so hard:
In real wars artillery wins wars and is responsible for like 90% of kills. It wins wars because it is inherently unfair and renders troops on the ground irrelevant and powerless. You want to be as unfair as possible to win a war.

Despite indirect fire being the single most important aspect of warfare, indirect fire is pretty much nonexistent in war games, especially first person ones, exactly because the indiscriminate and unfair nature of it that renders the individual soldier (or mech) impotent is very much not fun or suited for gaming.

Would fit great into a horror game though.

MummyPig, on 19 March 2021 - 01:54 AM, said:

LRM/ATM were hammered not that long back, with faster lock breaking times, arc changes that plunge missiles into the terrain because of a few degree variation in positioning and the massive reduction in target reticule lock area and time it takes to get a lock.

This was a massive buff to LRMs. The low firing arc and higher missile velocity made LRMs MUCH stronger than they had been before. You even see them in competitive use sometimes.

[The6thMessenger]

Gagis, on 19 March 2021 - 02:02 AM, said:

Indirect fire is incredibly hard to balance. Let me explain my perspective on why that is so hard:
In real wars artillery wins wars and is responsible for like 90% of kills. It wins wars because it is inherently unfair and renders troops on the ground irrelevant and powerless. You want to be as unfair as possible to win a war.

Despite indirect fire being the single most important aspect of warfare, indirect fire is pretty much nonexistent in war games, especially first person ones, exactly because the indiscriminate and unfair nature of it that renders the individual soldier (or mech) impotent is very much not fun or suited for gaming.

Would fit great into a horror game though.

Dude. I literally quoted you.

And my solution is to precisely limit IDF with dedicated spotters equipped with NARC or TAG, making it about role-warfare.

Gagis, on 19 March 2021 - 02:02 AM, said:

This was a massive buff to LRMs. The low firing arc and higher missile velocity made LRMs MUCH stronger than they had been before. You even see them in competitive use sometimes.

Sometimes? That doesn't sound bad, so what if they get used.

Also isn't that good? I mean it's not IDF so it should be somewhat fair that they are getting the angle.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 19 March 2021 - 02:09 AM.

[Gagis]

Hahah, sorry, I wasn't paying attention.

And yes, I liked the last iteration of LRM buffs. I've used them a lot more since. Indirect fire is still fundamentally problematic and the extremely high velocity possibly overpowered but still.

Edited by Gagis, 19 March 2021 - 02:12 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Gagis, on 19 March 2021 - 02:02 AM, said:

In real wars artillery wins wars and is responsible for like 90% of kills. It wins wars because it is inherently unfair and renders troops on the ground irrelevant and powerless. You want to be as unfair as possible to win a war.

Despite indirect fire being the single most important aspect of warfare, indirect fire is pretty much nonexistent in war games, especially first person ones, exactly because the indiscriminate and unfair nature of it that renders the individual soldier (or mech) impotent is very much not fun or suited for gaming.

Would fit great into a horror game though.

I actually built an artillery-dedicated second-lance in BattleTech BTA3062, and it's broken lol. Thumper can immediately core targets, and that's just effectively an artillery version of Gauss. Inferno in particular, the AI is so dumb, they literally shutdown immediately after powering up again.

And my favorite part:

Edited by The6thMessenger, 19 March 2021 - 02:19 AM.

[Meep Meep]

The6thMessenger, on 19 March 2021 - 02:17 AM, said:

the AI is so dumb, they literally shutdown immediately after powering up again.

I was really looking forward to a modern computerized TT battletech game but as you said the AI is literally dumb as a rock and from watching others play there simply isn't much challenge once you get a few mechs properly setup.

[The Basilisk]

MummyPig, on 19 March 2021 - 01:54 AM, said:

(...)

Interesting that this person refers to missiles as "bullying weapons" when we all know what its like to be on the end of ac/lbx/rac fire that completely obscures the cockpit regardless of where the shells are hitting the mech . . .

They are called (I think unfairly though) bullying weapons for beeing hard to evade and make you feel abused and helpless.
I do not realy feel that way since I know how to stay with ECM Mechs or heavy AMS mechs and always use at least 1 AMS in my builds myself. Also having radar dep skilled is a good thing to have.

But avoiding visual irritation by RAC, chained ACs and LBX is even easier....just switch to heat vision when this ocurs. Is just a button push.

[dario03]

If full rework is possible I would like to see varying levels of lock. Right now a lock is a lock, there is no benefit or penalty for barely keeping the circle in the box and perfectly tracking a target. I would like that to be changed.

If it was just basic changes then I would try to make them less feast or famine. So the lock-on weapons wouldn't be as powerful, but neither would their counters.

[Meep Meep]

dario03, on 19 March 2021 - 02:42 AM, said:

If full rework is possible I would like to see varying levels of lock. Right now a lock is a lock, there is no benefit or penalty for barely keeping the circle in the box and perfectly tracking a target. I would like that to be changed.

If it was just basic changes then I would try to make them less feast or famine. So the lock-on weapons wouldn't be as powerful, but neither would their counters.

This already exists with los locks gaining better spread and velocity over idf so more missiles hit the ct and the reduction of the size of the zone you have to keep your aim point in to keep locks. Target decay is what affects not losing lock when your aim point drifts out of the zone. Also idf locks are painfully slow unless someone else has tagged or narced it. If you want your lrm boat to maximize its performance you are going to be sharing armor and getting los locks right behind the brawlers.

[Fae Puka]

The Basilisk, on 19 March 2021 - 02:35 AM, said:

They are called (I think unfairly though) bullying weapons for being hard to evade and make you feel abused and helpless.
I do not really feel that way since I know how to stay with ECM Mechs or heavy AMS mechs and always use at least 1 AMS in my builds myself. Also having radar dep skilled is a good thing to have.

But avoiding visual irritation by RAC, chained ACs and LBX is even easier....just switch to heat vision when this occurs. Is just a button push.

Only issue with heat vision, is that it is distance restricted, so you lose the flash but also lose sight of the mech if they are using the long range ballistic tactics - something those weapons are well designed for.

[GARION26]

Meep Meep, on 19 March 2021 - 02:28 AM, said:

I was really looking forward to a modern computerized TT battletech game but as you said the AI is literally dumb as a rock and from watching others play there simply isn't much challenge once you get a few mechs properly setup.

The AI is not great - but honestly at lower mech weights the base game is quitechallenging and lots of fun. The issue is they can only really have 12 AI assets on the field and you are smarter then them. When you have a max tonnage lance with highly skilled pilots and lots of advanced tech upgrades it's much harder for the AI to compete. The base game partially balances this by allowing you to increase the difficulty of essentially accessing this.

The various mods actually up the difficulty to varying degrees quite a bit - some come with the warning from experienced BT gamers it's not for the faint of heart (i've just been looking at them last weekend as I'm curious about installing as I've been watching another Baradul Battletech Advanced mod video.)

You can also play remotely against a friend which is a real win in a Corona in the world. How good your friends FI (Friends Intelligence) is up to the company you keep

[Darion Rothgarr]

A suggestion i made:

LRMs are no longer lock on weapons. Once they fire, they travel the set distance determined when firing and move to the target reticle with some agility (not complete). LRM would receive a velocity boost to determine the balance that would be needed to allow mechs to the attack but also allow the missiles velocity to make up the difference in the lock on change. This means you could theoretically hit mechs behind cover but would require skill for this to happen. Is it possible... I believe yes this could be done, as LRMS can be dumb fired to a location point already.

Edited by Darion Rothgarr, 19 March 2021 - 05:17 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Darion Rothgarr, on 19 March 2021 - 05:17 AM, said:

A suggestion i made:

LRMs are no longer lock on weapons. Once they fire, they travel the set distance determined when firing and move to the target reticle with some agility (not complete). LRM would receive a velocity boost to determine the balance that would be needed to allow mechs to the attack but also allow the missiles velocity to make up the difference in the lock on change. This means you could theoretically hit mechs behind cover but would require skill for this to happen. Is it possible... I believe yes this could be done, as LRMS can be dumb fired to a location point already.

You mean half-life 1 rocket-launcher mechanics.

Might be problematic because they aren't AOE weapons.

[Ryokens leap]

Remove the C3 mechanic from the game forcing missile boats to gain LOS or utilize team UAV’s to achieve locks. Forcing them to move forward off the back line and into direct fire range will help balance. The C3 target network has been a bad mechanic since day one.