25 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

https://www.dota2.co...430596679058277

I recently just went back to Dota 2, after watching the Netflix show. It's pretty good actually, Marci is best girl, Mirana didn't feel like a stuck-up entitled hero and is actually fun. Luna's a stuck-up genocidal ***** whose actually somewhat yandere.

But with their Netflix show release, comes anticipation with new players, and with it is improved NPE from actual competent company that is Valve. I'm not saying that we should make a netflix anime show -- theoretically a good prospect, but if it's any storytelling simmilar to MW5, I won't hold my breath.

Having went back to Dota, there is just a lot of effort put in their ability to teach new players of how to play the game, even for returning players like yours truly. The basics, advanced strategy, the rewards from completing the tutorial. There's proper pacing to ease new players in the game, dedicated environment to actually teach them what they need to know.

Now go back to MWO, how do they treat new players? The freebie seems nice, but that's just about it --- I don't remember having bolt-ons. What do we have for a safe space to exercise? Testing Grounds and Academy, that's it. Academy is pretty basic, Battlezone AI is kinda dumb.

Learning comes from being taught by other players by simply playing the game over and over, even by tutorial on youtube -- these sources aren't primary, and is in fact something you have to actively search for. I mean yeah sure I don't want to deprive new players of chance to learn, but come on that's just basically giving players homework than actual space to apply what they have learned.

Mech-Lab is half of the battle, so why not teach actually effective builds and how they are applied? Why are the champions ******* MC-walled? Why not teach how to poptart and it's counters, how to LRM-Bend, teach differences in hitboxes and convergence?

Look at Dota, you could argue all damn day that "MW5 is PVE while MWO is PVP", but something like TF2 and Dota having bots so that new players have a safe space to try out new builds, tactics, apply what they have learned, helps a bunch. Now yes, PGI's AI sucks, and I wouldn't count on them being a good teammate or a competent enemy even if there's AI Bots applied in place.

What's my take away from this? Well, Valve is a competent company that knows what they are doing, PGI however is not. Where Valve would rather teach new players, PGI would rather give them homework. I would urge PGI to follow in Valve's model, but I won't hold my breath.

I know they can't code in MWO anymore that even if they want to develop a dedicated tutorial in MWO like Dota did, they can't with Cry-Engine. Could have ported MWO to unreal using the epic money, but instead screwed everyone else with a long string of bad decisions.

Is there a point in this post? Mostly to rag on PGI.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 March 2021 - 05:39 AM.

[Nightbird]

MW5 is basically the Tutorial to MWO. Finish it and you're about a T3 level player.

[The6thMessenger]

Nightbird, on 26 March 2021 - 09:00 PM, said:

MW5 is basically the Tutorial to MWO. Finish it and you're about a T3 level player.

It's a **** game that isn't worth the money it costs, and currently is bought a horrible storefront, with different balance and mechanics. I don't see how that is helpful for MWO.

[Nightbird]

The6thMessenger, on 26 March 2021 - 09:21 PM, said:

It's a **** game that isn't worth the money it costs, and currently is bought a horrible storefront, with different balance and mechanics. I don't see how that is helpful for MWO.

In a year, when it is 5$, they can give it away with mech packs. 20$ for 3 mechs and a free tutorial campaign.

[The6thMessenger]

Nightbird, on 26 March 2021 - 09:26 PM, said:

In a year, when it is 5$, they can give it away with mech packs. 20$ for 3 mechs and a free tutorial campaign.

It's already 1 year and 3 months, and need 2 more for MW5 to ACTUALLY hit the other stores with the DLC that should have been free from the get go. I'm even sure they're stupid enough to release it full price.

MW5 wasn't interesting enough to bring people into the epic store in droves, I doubt it will bring people into MWO as well.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 March 2021 - 10:13 PM.

[Nightbird]

Hence... free MW5 with the beginner mech packs. Brilliant

[MW Waldorf Statler]

PGI was for over 15 years only a company for cheap games and console portals, Die Hard: Nakatomi Place which started as a mod failed completely as a game, then additional work for games like Duke Nukem 3D, and then built a team around the ideas and desires of two people who bought in those people to create their desires for MWO, but with ever new ideas that were unrealistic and burst with Transverse then lost everything for the tarum MWO and could only start and accomplish the new dream MW5 with new people. MWO will now be kept alive as long as EG7 likes it, but whether they will pull any resources from other of their companies to strengthen MWO or build it up better, I think that is very questionable.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[The6thMessenger]

Nightbird, on 26 March 2021 - 10:15 PM, said:

Hence... free MW5 with the beginner mech packs. Brilliant

Could work if only PGI is that smart. I bet they even think that the game deserves full price even when it's already more than a year old, nor it never was worth it at that price.

[Bud Crue]

The6thMessenger, on 26 March 2021 - 08:34 PM, said:

Learning comes from being taught by other players by simply playing the game over and over, even by tutorial on youtube -- these sources aren't primary, and is in fact something you have to actively search for. I mean yeah sure I don't want to deprive new players of chance to learn, but come on that's just basically giving players homework than actual space to apply what they have learned.

Mech-Lab is half of the battle, so why not teach actually effective builds and how they are applied? Why are the champions ******* MC-walled? Why not teach how to poptart and it's counters, how to LRM-Bend, teach differences in hitboxes and convergence?

Because of PGI's dedication to the fiction of "balance" anything regarding optimization had to come from outside sources, like "Meta Mechs" back in the day, to "Grim Mechs" today. It would have been impossible for PGI to suggest or provide new players with "good" or optimized mechs and builds since their official position was that such things didn't exist in their near perfectly balanced game.

[The6thMessenger]

Bud Crue, on 27 March 2021 - 04:49 AM, said:

Because of PGI's dedication to the fiction of "balance" anything regarding optimization had to come from outside sources, like "Meta Mechs" back in the day, to "Grim Mechs" today. It would have been impossible for PGI to suggest or provide new players with "good" or optimized mechs and builds since their official position was that such things didn't exist in their near perfectly balanced game.

I'm not one for min-maxing, but even I know that optimized builds works. Even then, the real elephant in the room is that they didn't exactly have a balanced game right now.

[Bud Crue]

The6thMessenger, on 27 March 2021 - 05:34 AM, said:

I'm not one for min-maxing, but even I know that optimized builds works. Even then, the real elephant in the room is that they didn't exactly have a balanced game right now.

Yep. I'm just answering the question you asked about why the game doesn't have the built in resources to teach new players about effective builds and such.

Anyone who has played for a while can recognize how to build something at least somewhat optimized; and some kindhearted and skilled players have gone further and provided their views regarding optimization for the rest of us to learn from. But PGI, as a matter of policy, could not and would not acknowledge that reality of optimization out of fear of undercutting their mech sales. E.g. No new marks are going to consider buying a Vindicator Mastery Pack (or whatever) if PGI come's out and straight up admits that those mechs are less than optimal, just like if PGI admitted the MKII-B was a top performer it would likely mean that other mechs would potentially not be purchased as much. To PGI an admission that one thing might be better or worse than another is an attack on potential profit, so they have historically refused to admit that such possibilities even exist. As a result all things potentially "optimal" in the game, just like all things critical about the game, have to come from the community.

Edited by Bud Crue, 27 March 2021 - 05:57 AM.

[PocketYoda]

Well lets have a little perspective.. DOTA run by Valve... Steam generating a crap toon of dosh.. they literally can throw money away.. PGI is not big at all compared.

Also i hate Mobas.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

look, I'm not saying you're wrong - you are right.
-there should be a good tutorial about everything
-there should be a proper way for beginners to spend their first few matches without getting "the usual treatment".
the game is old enough for both.


OTOH -and that's not to cover up PGIs glaring f*up in the tutorial-area:
-youtube isn't something for insiders that few know about
-typing "mwo tutorial" "beginner" "tips" there is not really that hard.

the point I'm trying to make is the following:
the above is already done by people new to the game, that wanna improve themselves.
the group that is NOT doing the above, but starts at beginner-level and does NOT improve from
there on does so fully aware, willingly and for a reason.

some people just don't wanna learn, or improve, or whatever. they wanna start a game they have zero clue about, and have fun in it; and they have every right to do so.
they just shouldn't expect to do well, as they simply won't without improving. and there lies the catch..

this game has A LOT of people who outright refuse to improve themselves, but at the same time expect that they should be on the same level as those who invest time to improve. and here it is PGIs fault to say "yeah, ofc you're right.." - instead of ACTIVELY showing that you can have skill AND FUN at the same time..

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 27 March 2021 - 06:06 AM.

[InvictusLee]

6th since when have the devs ever reacted in anything but a hostile way to valid, respectful, criticism like this?
I feel like we have created, disputed and discussed points such as these over what seems like thousands of threads over the last 7?ish years. Im not saying PGI is incapable of change, but stating that i have absolutely no faith in them even under new ownership.

I havent seen anything other than bandaid style changes up till now, i dont see it changing much without PGI investing major money and development time back into mwo, which probably wont happen as the ceo is a bit of a penny pincher.

[Vlad Ward]

Am I hallucinating or didn't we have tutorial videos made by streamers/non-employees hotlinked in the startup splash for new players at one point?

[Theodore]

(For background; I made a mwo account long ago... played some matches... got obliterated and then uninstalled... I played mw5— had a lot of fun and then recently came back to mwo).

Bots mode would definitely help the new player experience. There is a large contingent of gamers that like to play co-op modes that have Bots in them. (Like the OP posted, dota2 is a good example). With modes like firefight, survival, horde modes or waves... this could be a great way to easy new players into the game... then slowly get them addicted and spending money.

Yes... there is always Mechwarrior 5, but that’s a different game... it’s hard to migrate players from one game to another... the main goal for PGI should be to get new players into the ecosystem and hope for a certain percentage of player retention is achieved... and then hope to monetize off of them.

As it currently stands, many cadets drop a few matches, then proceed to get slaughtered and then uninstall mwo.

For me, I did play mw5 (like stated above), and learned the game mechanics and then came back to mwo, but I honestly would have quit mwo again if it wasn’t for a great group that took me in and showed me the ropes... but I consider myself very lucky that they accepted me... it took me weeks of spamming in all chat to finally find someone to take me in).

[Elizander]

Tutorials are like Wiki/Knowledgebase for products like live service games. They need to be part of the development process all the way because when you update the game, guess what? Yeah, you gotta update the tutorial and the wiki.

One and done tutorials are for single player games that receive no updates.

Edited by Elizander, 27 March 2021 - 08:08 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Never done DOTA and never will (I just don't like real time overhead games) so I will take your word on DOTA.

Bigger games though have done just as poorly or even worse than in MWO.
Siege for example has the brain dead Terrorist Hunt that feels more like a racing game the NASCAR in MWO.
Siege players wish they had things like Testing Grounds and the Academy.
Siege Pros complain about stuff like outfits on certain maps being hard to see, gosh camouflage is BAD so they added backlighting to characters to make them easier to see. Yeah Pros in any game can screw up design.

Bots are hard for a lot of programmers, AI is still a new field for some and it seems not many in the industry are good at it thus bots cheated for so long in games except simple ones.

Sad thing is if you try and help the New Player Experience, you get dumped on even by other players. I tried playing though the new Campaign PvE of a online card game I had been using since their first set was only partially released and was giving feedback. I got accused by someone of wanting more free stuff that I did not care about because I have enough in game resources to buy almost anything I needed if I felt like it.
I quit that card game the same day.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 27 March 2021 - 06:04 AM, said:

some people just don't wanna learn, or improve, or whatever. they wanna start a game they have zero clue about, and have fun in it; and they have every right to do so.
they just shouldn't expect to do well, as they simply won't without improving. and there lies the catch..

this game has A LOT of people who outright refuse to improve themselves, but at the same time expect that they should be on the same level as those who invest time to improve. and here it is PGIs fault to say "yeah, ofc you're right.." - instead of ACTIVELY showing that you can have skill AND FUN at the same time..

Partly true but you are missing some categories of players.

[Anjian]

The6thMessenger, on 26 March 2021 - 08:34 PM, said:

https://www.dota2.co...430596679058277

I recently just went back to Dota 2, after watching the Netflix show. It's pretty good actually, Marci is best girl, Mirana didn't feel like a stuck-up entitled hero and is actually fun. Luna's a stuck-up genocidal ***** whose actually somewhat yandere.

On another topic, I imagined that Netflix can do a Battletech kind of show, using the Japanese CGI studio that did Knights of Sidonia and Pacific Rim: The Black. All you need is a good concept and script.

[Nightbird]

With the rights as messed up as it is, keep dreaming. Any company worth their salt would rather start a new IP than touch this toxic waste with a ten foot poll.