22 replies to this topic

[Wildstreak]

So after being back from 3 years 'forced off' due to that weird **** in 2017, I see a lot of Clan builds with cHLL. Personally don't like the darn weapons due to CD, I understand them and not asking for a change, I just do not like sitting there for almost 6 seconds waiting for my 'big gun' lasers to be ready again.

Yet I see no purpose to using cHML and cHSL.

cHSL compares to cMPL in damage but that weapon has way better range, cSPL almost in several areas but that is a tie that shows no reason to use a HSL. Compared to IS weapons, again the MPL or SPL. What is the point of even bothering to equip a cHSL when 2 other weapons give you better options?

Then there is the cHML, ugh. in a few categories compares to cERSL or cMPL yet again they are better. Vs IS, this actually compares to the SnubPPC in a few areas but that was better before the CD change.

Why would someone even use cHML and cHSL curiously?

[Meep Meep]

They are popular in quick play because many opt for alpha builds instead of dps and clan heavy lasers pack the biggest punch. If you can stick a burn on a component with a clan heavy laser vomit build you can core it out unless its an armor quirked heavy or assault.

[The6thMessenger]

CHSL actually find use with being paired with CMG or CHMG due to both being at knife-distance, but CHSL supplements the MGs with frontloaded alpha.

I too struggle to find use to CHMLs. I mean it's a closer-distance than what I am used to, and it also has even longer duration than the CERML, and at least the CERML has the range.

In fact I question the point of the longer duration of Heavy Lasers at all. They already come with awkwardly shorter range and longer cooldown, dafuq do they need to have long duration as well?

[Khobai]

heavy lasers need their heat decreased to compensate for the heatsinks you give up due to heavy lasers taking up more tonnage and crit slots.

Why would anyone in their right mind use a heavy medium laser over an ER medium laser when the heavy medium laser is 4 tons and 3 crit slots? Youre basically sacrificing 2 whole DHS to do a little more short term DPS but losing those 2 DHS hurts you more in the long run since you cant keep your DPS up.

Plus having that shorter range is already a kick in the balls...

Decreasing heat is the best way to fix heavy lasers. I dont think increasing damage is a good idea because the last thing the game needs is higher damage alphas. And while the beam duration sucks on heavy lasers I think the long beam duration is necessary to keep them sufficiently differentiated from pulse lasers. But they should DEFINITELY have lower heat.

Edited by Khobai, 01 April 2021 - 04:49 AM.

[Antares102]

Khobai, on 01 April 2021 - 04:38 AM, said:

Why would anyone in their right mind use a heavy medium laser over an ER medium laser when the heavy medium laser is 4 tons and 3 crit slots? Youre basically sacrificing 2 whole DHS to do a little more short term DPS but losing those 2 DHS hurts you more in the long run since you cant keep your DPS up.

I think you mean heavy LARGE laser which is 3 slots/4 tons and heavy MEDIUM laser is 2 slots/1 ton.

Edited by Antares102, 01 April 2021 - 05:29 AM.

[D A T A]

Wildstreak, on 01 April 2021 - 04:01 AM, said:

So after being back from 3 years 'forced off' due to that weird **** in 2017, I see a lot of Clan builds with cHLL. Personally don't like the darn weapons due to CD, I understand them and not asking for a change, I just do not like sitting there for almost 6 seconds waiting for my 'big gun' lasers to be ready again.

Yet I see no purpose to using cHML and cHSL.

cHSL compares to cMPL in damage but that weapon has way better range, cSPL almost in several areas but that is a tie that shows no reason to use a HSL. Compared to IS weapons, again the MPL or SPL. What is the point of even bothering to equip a cHSL when 2 other weapons give you better options?

Then there is the cHML, ugh. in a few categories compares to cERSL or cMPL yet again they are better. Vs IS, this actually compares to the SnubPPC in a few areas but that was better before the CD change.

Why would someone even use cHML and cHSL curiously?

Clan heavy lasers are all bad and without purpose.
They are used only by people with a very low understanding of the game. They usually farm even worse noobs, but then complain hacks op when a decentplayer smashes them with proper weapons, like IS medpulses, dakka boats or Erppc boats

Meep Meep, on 01 April 2021 - 04:12 AM, said:

They are popular in quick play because many opt for alpha builds instead of dps and clan heavy lasers pack the biggest punch. If you can stick a burn on a component with a clan heavy laser vomit build you can core it out unless its an armor quirked heavy or assault.

Except that at that distance you get face f**ked by inner sphere medpulse boats or srm bombers, which make heavy lasers useless, given that the duration is so long that you can torso twist like 4 times before the burn is done, lol

Edited by D A T A, 01 April 2021 - 05:56 AM.

[Meep Meep]

D A T A, on 01 April 2021 - 05:51 AM, said:

Clan heavy lasers are all bad and without purpose.
They are used only by people with a very low understanding of the game. They usually farm even worse noobs, but then complain hacks op when a decentplayer smashes them with proper weapons, like IS medpulses, dakka boats or Erppc boats

Except that at that distance you get face f**ked by inner sphere medpulse boats or srm bombers, which make heavy lasers useless, given that the duration is so long that you can torso twist like 4 times before the burn is done, lol

If the other side has any of those builds. You keep trying to put this organized play 'meta' at work in the chaos and complete unpredictability of quick play. That would only work if people in quick play used meta builds on a regular basis or cared in the first place. They do not. So you can heap praise on the 'meta' and scorn on what is considered poopoo and it not going to change a thing. You are still going to run into every possible combination of weapons in the average quick play match.

[Antares102]

D A T A, on 01 April 2021 - 05:51 AM, said:

Clan heavy lasers are all bad and without purpose.
They are used only by people with a very low understanding of the game. They usually farm even worse noobs, but then complain hacks op when a decentplayer smashes them with proper weapons, like IS medpulses, dakka boats or Erppc boats

I guess you are right. Back when CHLL still had 18 damage and CMLP 7 damage I played a 78 Alpha MAD-IIC (2x CHLL, 6xCMPL) it worked well in general quickplay/groupplay but I had to keep my distance to high DPS mechs or only engage them when I was cool and with my MPL.

Still in the end if you can kill three guys on the enemy team quickly then the one good player with a dakka build doesnt matter anymore.

This was what my build was for: Farm the noobs and when enough noobs were gone get the good players last.

[GARION26]

I realize people are very opinionated on this, and I have no horse in the game except I run a laser vomit hellbringer without much success so I'm interested in advice.

But Grimmechs still has a heavy large laser hellbringer as an S tier general play build. Doesn't mean they are right but they are a well regarded starting point for mech builds.
https://grimmechs.is...ts?list=general

[Doctor Fission]

I think that there is one very niche case where HML works well. Grimmechs lists the Incubus-4 as being a 6 HML boat, with the rest of the available tonnage being taken by heat sinks. I've been playing this build fairly extensively lately (Tier-3 so take that with a grain of salt) and I've been having good results so far.

I'm not a comp player by any means. I had a hard time with ERML on that chassis because I needed to shoot so much more often with them. I found that my heat was going unused much of the time. When I switched to HML, the longer interval between shots gave me time to reposition before I fired again, which I found useful. Regarding MPLs as alternatives, I think that the increased face time they would require would be bad for a 30 ton light like this.

None of this is to say that HMLs are qualitatively "good". Just that in this one specific use case, for me as an average player, they worked better than the alternatives.

[CFC Conky]

My perspective from T3...

Pre-March patch I was running a couple of mechs with C-HLL+C-ERML with some success but with all the blue bubbles of doom flying around these days I'm finding it a lot riskier to run them. The C-HSL can be fun on some light mechs like the PIR-CI.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Khobai]

Antares102, on 01 April 2021 - 05:25 AM, said:

I think you mean heavy LARGE laser which is 3 slots/4 tons and heavy MEDIUM laser is 2 slots/1 ton.

yeah I meant the heavy large laser

the heavy medium lasers are equally bad though

because taking multiple heavy medium lasers also means less heatsinks.

they all have the same problem of too much heat and taking up too many crit slots that could otherwise be used for more heatsinks.

all the heavy lasers need a heat reduction to compensate for their additional crit slot usage.

Edited by Khobai, 01 April 2021 - 02:37 PM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

GARION26, on 01 April 2021 - 08:49 AM, said:

I realize people are very opinionated on this, and I have no horse in the game except I run a laser vomit hellbringer without much success so I'm interested in advice. But Grimmechs still has a heavy large laser hellbringer as an S tier general play build. Doesn't mean they are right but they are a well regarded starting point for mech builds. https://grimmechs.is...ts?list=general

no idea how good it works nowadays (since I don't play anymore), but back then that mech was a workhorse of FW - on the right maps, with the right mode & people, ofc.

worked great in QP too - though anything works there, really.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 01 April 2021 - 03:31 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 01 April 2021 - 03:30 PM, said:

worked great in QP too - though anything works there, really.

Yep. As long as you can aim and know how to use your team as a meat shield pretty much any reasonable fit works.

[PocketYoda]

Because heavy Large lasers are 16 damage for 4 tons and heavy mediums are 10 damage for 1 ton.. if you use hit and run game play the cooldowns aren't a problem and the heat/burn times are fine and can be mitigated..

My adder with 2 CHLL and 2 CHML is amazing damage wise for a light.. it can kill Assaults. You show me a Inner sphere light with that much damage.

My kitfox runs 3 AMS ECM and 3 HML.. all that on a light

My Cougar runs 4 HML

My Vapor Eagle runs 4 HML and 2 SRM6s

My Huntsman runs 4 HML and a CGauss

My Linebacker runs 7 HML

My Night Gyr runs 6 HML and an CERML

Edited by Samial, 01 April 2021 - 04:36 PM.

[Adette]

GARION26, on 01 April 2021 - 08:49 AM, said:

I realize people are very opinionated on this, and I have no horse in the game except I run a laser vomit hellbringer without much success so I'm interested in advice.

But Grimmechs still has a heavy large laser hellbringer as an S tier general play build. Doesn't mean they are right but they are a well regarded starting point for mech builds.
https://grimmechs.is...ts?list=general

Heavy Laser vom Hellbringer only works nowadays if you can poke from 500m+ at angles where you won't immediately get shot (rely on the ECM), in a straight up trade against someone that already knows your position, it will lose to Dakka at the mid range, or lose to faster burning lower cooldown IS MPL under 320m.

That's why D A T A says they're useless, because a Dakka boat can do everything the laser vom Hellbringer can do, without needing to worry about the big heatspike, or losing trades due to burn time in a straight trade. Lasers in general, outside of IS MPL lose trades right now due to too much heat/too much expose time/too long duration burn, which is why there are so many laser buffs in the upcoming April Cauldron patch.

[Meep Meep]

Adette, on 02 April 2021 - 11:32 AM, said:

Heavy Laser vom Hellbringer only works nowadays if you can poke from 500m+ at angles where you won't immediately get shot (rely on the ECM), in a straight up trade against someone that already knows your position, it will lose to Dakka at the mid range, or lose to faster burning lower cooldown IS MPL under 320m.

That's why D A T A says they're useless, because a Dakka boat can do everything the laser vom Hellbringer can do, without needing to worry about the big heatspike, or losing trades due to burn time in a straight trade. Lasers in general, outside of IS MPL lose trades right now due to too much heat/too much expose time/too long duration burn, which is why there are so many laser buffs in the upcoming April Cauldron patch.

Tell that to the ones in quick play. They don't seem to hear any of these forum conversations.

[Adette]

Meep Meep, on 02 April 2021 - 12:52 PM, said:

Tell that to the ones in quick play. They don't seem to hear any of these forum conversations.

I didnt say they dont get played, I said straight up same skilled player vs same skilled player, the dakka mech will outtrade the laser vom mech.

[Antares102]

Samial, on 01 April 2021 - 04:28 PM, said:

My adder with 2 CHLL and 2 CHML is amazing damage wise for a light.. it can kill Assaults.

After just listening to Ryan George on youtube I got laughing tears in my eyes imagining him saying that sentence.

Samial, on 01 April 2021 - 04:28 PM, said:

My Night Gyr runs 6 HML and an CERML

Nonsense, you're not talking about a Night Gyr
or do you want to tell me that your Night Gyr looks something like this:
https://thecauldron...._ea2b8214_NTG-A
which wastes something like 21 tons...

In Tier 4 every build works no matter how crazy thus your experience might be a bit... distorted.
Perhaps use less HML and more reasonable weapons instead and your general survival rate might break 30% one day.

Edited by Antares102, 02 April 2021 - 01:28 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Adette, on 02 April 2021 - 01:04 PM, said:

I didnt say they dont get played, I said straight up same skilled player vs same skilled player, the dakka mech will outtrade the laser vom mech.

Sure and every organized player knows this. But 99.9% of daily play is in quick play where the meta is what you make it. Good players can make nearly anything work in quick play.