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Sereglach, on 02 April 2021 - 10:06 PM, said:
LONG ago I was pushing for 1-2 DPS (1.5 is clearly a nice starting point). MW5 I think is 2 DPS and seems a bit OP, but that could be the 3025 setting for much of what I've seen. HPS and Heat DPS should be notably different, inflicting actual net heat damage over heat generated. At the time I was saying 1.0 Heat DPS and 0.5-0.75 HPS gain. Ironically, even after changes in the way the heatsinks work (leaning towards faster dissipation and lower heat caps) and looking at it's closest competitors, the Medium Laser for the IS and Small Laser for Clans, the numbers really wouldn't be much different.
However, for the sake of debating and looking at a quick glance of baseline data, here's a breakdown on a more current take:
IS Flamer, Medium Laser is the closest competitor:
With April changes the ML will have a DPS of 1.56 . . . I don't think asking for 1.4 - 1.6 is too much for the Flamer.
Clan Flamer, ER Small Laser is the closest competitor:
DPS isn't much different on the SL at 1.43 . . . 1.2-1.4 DPS seems reasonable for the Flamer, but whatever value it is should be less than the IS variant, seeing as it's a half ton instead of a full ton . . . if we're balancing via damage (more later).
HPS and Heat DPS could likely be the same across IS and Clan. The base 10 doubles seem to be dissipating approximately 2.3-2.4 HPS now. One Flamer should be a nuisance, two should just about defeat your opponent's base 10 DHS cooling, 3-4 should be dangerous, and 5-6 should be crippling for a short burst (the shooter won't be able to maintain it much longer than the heat damage they do); but if PGI really wants Ghost Heat in the picture then implement it for numbers over 6. However, fixed flat values balance themselves, in the case of the Flamer, because the shooter won't be able to keep heat on the target much longer than the opponent has 90% heat, and then both parties need to retreat to cool. This is even more hazardous for the shooter, as they CAN shut themselves down. Regardless, I'd personally shoot for 1.2 Heat DPS and 0.6 - 0.8 HPS gain.
Now, if you want to balance in a slightly different way, you could keep the DPS the same on both IS and Clan models, and instead make the Clan version less efficient at putting heat on target. It gives you an alternate method for compensating for the 50% lighter Clan Flamer that falls a bit more in line with how the upcoming April patch seems to be handling MGs . . . the IS getting more rounds per ton for their heavier base MGs, but the damage values being relatively the same. Higher HPS on the Clan Flamer would allow equal damage to the IS version, but the heavier IS version handling heat gen better. In this case both could be 1.4 DPS and inflict 1.2 Heat DPS, while the IS version generates 0.6 HPS and the Clan version generates 0.8 - 1.0 HPS.
Hope that helps. The Flamer has been my baby since first playing Battletech in the late 80's, with of course the Firestarter being my favorite mech; and while Flamers have always been decent (if not OP) weapons in other MW titles it's always been disappointing how Flamers have been in MWO. It'd be a glorious day to finally see that changed. Thank you for your time and consideration.
However, for the sake of debating and looking at a quick glance of baseline data, here's a breakdown on a more current take:
IS Flamer, Medium Laser is the closest competitor:
With April changes the ML will have a DPS of 1.56 . . . I don't think asking for 1.4 - 1.6 is too much for the Flamer.
Clan Flamer, ER Small Laser is the closest competitor:
DPS isn't much different on the SL at 1.43 . . . 1.2-1.4 DPS seems reasonable for the Flamer, but whatever value it is should be less than the IS variant, seeing as it's a half ton instead of a full ton . . . if we're balancing via damage (more later).
HPS and Heat DPS could likely be the same across IS and Clan. The base 10 doubles seem to be dissipating approximately 2.3-2.4 HPS now. One Flamer should be a nuisance, two should just about defeat your opponent's base 10 DHS cooling, 3-4 should be dangerous, and 5-6 should be crippling for a short burst (the shooter won't be able to maintain it much longer than the heat damage they do); but if PGI really wants Ghost Heat in the picture then implement it for numbers over 6. However, fixed flat values balance themselves, in the case of the Flamer, because the shooter won't be able to keep heat on the target much longer than the opponent has 90% heat, and then both parties need to retreat to cool. This is even more hazardous for the shooter, as they CAN shut themselves down. Regardless, I'd personally shoot for 1.2 Heat DPS and 0.6 - 0.8 HPS gain.
Now, if you want to balance in a slightly different way, you could keep the DPS the same on both IS and Clan models, and instead make the Clan version less efficient at putting heat on target. It gives you an alternate method for compensating for the 50% lighter Clan Flamer that falls a bit more in line with how the upcoming April patch seems to be handling MGs . . . the IS getting more rounds per ton for their heavier base MGs, but the damage values being relatively the same. Higher HPS on the Clan Flamer would allow equal damage to the IS version, but the heavier IS version handling heat gen better. In this case both could be 1.4 DPS and inflict 1.2 Heat DPS, while the IS version generates 0.6 HPS and the Clan version generates 0.8 - 1.0 HPS.
Hope that helps. The Flamer has been my baby since first playing Battletech in the late 80's, with of course the Firestarter being my favorite mech; and while Flamers have always been decent (if not OP) weapons in other MW titles it's always been disappointing how Flamers have been in MWO. It'd be a glorious day to finally see that changed. Thank you for your time and consideration.
Thanks for that detailed post, it is great to have numbers to consider when reading feedback / suggestions.
Flamers as you noted were left as is, but they are a weapon I would like to look at in the future.
Edited by Krasnopesky, 03 April 2021 - 03:55 AM.
