704 replies to this topic

[denAirwalkerrr]

Pure_NZ, on 04 April 2021 - 10:56 PM, said:

The ****?

[Rosarius]

Pure_NZ, on 04 April 2021 - 10:56 PM, said:

• The AC20 means 200mm, not the imaginary calibers you want! Of course, its IS variant can take a 20 damage by one shot.
  
• The AC10 means 100mm, not the imaginary calibers you want!
  
• The AC10 means 100mm, not the imaginary calibers you want!

[citation needed]

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon

[Pure_NZ]

Rosarius, on 04 April 2021 - 11:27 PM, said:

[citation needed]

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon

Read the books

[Rosarius]

Pure_NZ, on 04 April 2021 - 11:30 PM, said:

Read the books

Read the TechManual

[Pure_NZ]

byter75, on 04 April 2021 - 11:14 PM, said:

Ho boy, there's a lot of changes to process so I have tried to sum it all up in one digestible image (hope this could be helpful):
(Note: Rac dps hasn’t actually increased, though the no-jam window is in a similar ballpark)




To start from the top, the biggest thing that jumps out to me is the many buffs to laser vomit.
Lasers are relatively lightweight, they are also relatively simple and easy to use (due to being hitscan). Their versatility can compliment many other weapon systems but they also can easily compliment one another (and dominate the meta). Whilst I think some laser vomit weapons like large pulse needed some love, we are also giving similar levels of love to staple laser vomit weapons like medium lasers who work as the bread and butter options for both factions. A 10% buff to underperformers like large pulse is warranted, giving 10% buffs to the bread and butter weapons can have a lot more of a knock on effect particularly since we risk their powers combining with all the other laser vomit buffs to be greater than the sum of their parts.
I.e. Laser vomit power creep is something to look out for, we ‘might’ want to roll some of it back next patch.

I like the changes to ppcs, though imo they are gonna pail in comparison to lighter, cooler, hitscan-er laser vomit.

To me, the missile changes seem all over the place.
We are improving ams to help encourage people to take it more but we also recognize that more ams causes missiles to have issues with their feasts turning into famines, so we buff some missiles to try to compensate. Sadly this results in a tug of war where we encourage more ams to be taken, which favours bigger missile mechs (because they can take more missile tubes) with only the weapons we feel like buffing.

Case in point, streaks.
Clan streak was already quite vulnerable to ams, it had to rely on its natural synergy with the much tankier atm missiles to get larger, more consistent alpha strikes. This patch moves to break up that natural synergy in cooldowns. Streaks are still slow and vulnerable, you can upgrade the 4’s to 6’s but the increased slots and decreased ammo economy (for both weapons) only goes to hurt this weapon synergy.
IS streak on the other hand are very heavy, relatively short ranged and very vulnerable to ams (they typically have to go it alone). Increasing their cooldown whilst pushing clan to fire faster simply just waters down the differences between the two tech bases, with IS streak effectively becoming even more dependent on quirks to save it from its many downsides (and it’s now less distinctive from the much more flexible clan option).

At its core, the main problem with this tug of war is that missile numbers and ams both stacks linearly (with smaller mechs unable to keep up as things escalate). How many missile boats your team has (and how big they are) compared to how many ams the enemy has (stacked together), can lead to drastically different results where either the ams gets swamped or the missiles get stopped entirely. Instead of randomly giving some missile weapons our blessings whilst smacking already struggling ones in the face I think we need to adjust how ams works in general so that missiles won't have these issues with linear fickleness.

If I spend 13.5 tons for IS ssrm18 which has 10.8 missile health or 14 tons for atm24 which has 24 missile health, then clearly the weapon with twice the missile health (yes... the missiles are a bit slower and they arc) is the one that needs even more missile health whilst the other (which does half the damage, with a much more restrictive range profile) needs a nerf.
(Read this part in a slightly sarcastic voice:) Apparently streaks, which have squishy missiles, aren’t subject to being shot down by ams. Instead it’s really their cooldowns that determine whether they are feast or famine. So, naturally if they can’t be boated all that easily we increase their cooldowns. Or if they are easier to boat and have natural synergies with weapons with similarly long cooldowns, we decrease their cooldowns because it was seemingly too long, even though it was working in harmony with other weapon that still work with this hit & run playestyle and we needed those tanky missiles to remain consistent because (for some barmy reason) we only worry about ams when we are taking atms.

So yeah. Srm & mrm changes are nice. Lockon changes seem very PGI-y, wish that wasn’t the case, we just had a good taste of that last patch.

Like the Rac5 buffs, though they might make them a bit too strong (particularly at lower tiers). Glad we finally will have ac20 velocity & HSL buff. Like giving Lgauss something unique with removal of ghost heat. Not sure if the various ballistics will see play but these buffs are in the right direction for them. Gauss hp changes are a nice little bandaid that holds the damage you get from these weapons exploding back for an extra moment or two (yay).

To conclude.
Best part of the patch is the change to arty.
I like all the distinct buffs given to certain weapon systems (lppc, snub, ac20, lgauss & case).
I am a little worried about power creep with laser vomit (and rac5).
MIssiles are stuck with a bit of an identity crisis. The ams tug of war needs more than haphazard PGI-style missile health changes.. Lrm can easily nuke someone within 20 or 30 seconds (often plus quirks & skill tree), an unnecessary nerf that does little to address the endless values that 'can' be possible with indirect fire.
With lockons and arty getting nerfed a bit we hopefully can see more lights & mediums again (as they were punished harshly by arty & big homing volleys).
Hope in the future we can address the identity issues with missiles and that we stop giving them *rolls a dice* style changes.
All in all, an interesting patch.

Then speak about the missiles:
1ton/240 missiles=4,16Kg/missile. Very very realistic
1ton/240+36(Skills ) missiles=3,6Kg/missile. Very very realistic

[denAirwalkerrr]

Pure_NZ, on 04 April 2021 - 11:30 PM, said:

Read the books

Link to book where it's stated and what books have to do with MWO? Want to be Aiden Pryde fighting off Comstar battalion wih single ERLL from your wet dreams?

You gotta actually fight enemies in that case over capping in assaults yknow

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 04 April 2021 - 11:51 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Pure_NZ, on 04 April 2021 - 11:35 PM, said:

Then speak about the missiles:
1ton/240 missiles=4,16Kg/missile. Very very realistic
1ton/240+36(Skills ) missiles=3,6Kg/missile. Very very realistic

its BT , and 1000 Missles have never Space in a Mechs and beams fom the Legs to the Launcher...seeing the Madcat ...Who have the other 860 Missles her Space????

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 04 April 2021 - 11:47 PM.

[Rosarius]

I'll give Pure NZ a hand on how to reference sources properly

Quote

Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/20s doing massive damage while having very short range. - Tech Manual, p. 207 https://www.sarna.ne...i/Autocannon/20

[byter75]

Pure_NZ, on 04 April 2021 - 11:35 PM, said:

Then speak about the missiles:
1ton/240 missiles=4,16Kg/missile. Very very realistic
1ton/240+36(Skills ) missiles=3,6Kg/missile. Very very realistic

I.. never really spoke about realism in my post... the focus was much more on game balance...

Though speaking of realism there is a way we could make this work.

The 1 ton of ammo represents not just the physical rounds of ammunition, there's also mechanisms and ducting needed to move that ammo to the weapon. Which could effectively mean that an ammo 'bin' represents 1 ton of equipment for storing and moving ammo and depending on where you place it, you'd get more or less ammo depending on how far it'd have to go to reach the weapon.

Edited by byter75, 04 April 2021 - 11:49 PM.

[Scout Derek]

byter75, on 04 April 2021 - 11:48 PM, said:

I.. never really spoke about realism in my post... the focus was much more on game balance...

Though speaking of realism there is a way we could make this work.

The 1 ton of ammo represents not just the physical rounds of ammunition, there's also mechanisms and ducting needed to move that ammo to the weapon. Which could effectively mean that an ammo 'bin' represents 1 ton of equipment for storing and moving ammo and depending on where you place it, you'd get more or less ammo depending on how far it'd have to go to reach the weapon.

Don't listen to him, he legitimately doesn't know what he's talking about.

[katoult]

Krasnopesky, on 04 April 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

TTK will be boosted quite a bit this year as others have said. Rescale and agility will increase TTK and if that isn't enough to convince you the quirk pass which will likely involve giving underperforming Mechs enhanced defensive quirks and decreasing some overperforming Mechs' offensive quirks will definitely increase TTK.

Agility re-assessment primarily increases TTK at a play level where people actively use agility in a defensive manner. It therefore will not significantly affect TTK for 70-80% of players.

And this is not limited to lower-tier players. In fact right while i'm typing this post i'm hearing JustcallmeASH going on his stream "He literally just stood there!".

[Pure_NZ]

denAirwalkerrr, on 04 April 2021 - 11:41 PM, said:

Link to book where it's stated and what books have to do with MWO? Want to be Aiden Pryde fighting off Comstar battalion wih single ERLL from your wet dreams?

You gotta actually fight enemies in that case over capping in assaults yknow

You are funny. Then post the other scores also. Why don't you do that? For example, the last one. Don't grab the worst results and fluttering in the people face. All of you look for a thing which you can degrade the people with if you do not agree with him or her. Funny little boys.

[Pure_NZ]

And mainly the coward hiding and kill-thief "players" are whining because of the same style. You do nothing, just peek, hide other's armor, hit-and-run, steal the kills, let others to fight. Talentless ZEROs. I look forward all of you in the Solaris with love.

[cougurt]

katoult, on 04 April 2021 - 11:59 PM, said:

Agility re-assessment primarily increases TTK at a play level where people actively use agility in a defensive manner. It therefore will not significantly affect TTK for 70-80% of players.

And this is not limited to lower-tier players. In fact right while i'm typing this post i'm hearing JustcallmeASH going on his stream "He literally just stood there!".

you're not wrong, but i am firmly against de-emphasizing a unique and fundamental element of the game for the sole purpose of accommodating less skilled players.

Pure_NZ, on 05 April 2021 - 12:18 AM, said:

And mainly the coward hiding and kill-thief "players" are whining because of the same style. You do nothing, just peek, hide other's armor, hit-and-run, steal the kills, let others to fight. Talentless ZEROs. I look forward all of you in the Solaris with love.

you routinely sit 2000+ meters away from the fight and contribute nothing, pretty much the definition of a cowardly player.

Edited by cougurt, 05 April 2021 - 12:21 AM.

[Rosarius]

Pure_NZ, on 05 April 2021 - 12:18 AM, said:

I look forward all of you in the Solaris with love.

I'm usually up for some Solaris duels. Hit me up and let's organise a time

[denAirwalkerrr]

Pure_NZ, on 05 April 2021 - 12:18 AM, said:

And mainly the coward hiding and kill-thief "players" are whining because of the same style. You do nothing, just peek, hide other's armor, hit-and-run, steal the kills, let others to fight. Talentless ZEROs. I look forward all of you in the Solaris with love.

Rich coming off a person who used to bring in FP nothing but ECM Marauder-IIC and sit as far away from fight as possible.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 05 April 2021 - 01:06 AM.

[katoult]

cougurt, on 05 April 2021 - 12:19 AM, said:

you're not wrong, but i am firmly against de-emphasizing a unique and fundamental element of the game for the sole purpose of accommodating less skilled players.

And that's the real problem. Should an overhaul primarily accomodate a limited subsection of players, or should it accomodate the majority of players including "newbies" and "returnees" that one wants to attract?

If it's the first then
1) the target group should be stated and staked out clearly in order to focus on its concerns
2) one might want to think about flanking it with a "training programme" to possibly enlarge this subsection

In general though i see these passes - not the current weapons pass and only to a limited extent the quirk pass - as pandering to very specific groups. Mostly those people that cry "They nerfed my OP Firestarter by making it huge" or "Back in the day before the engine desync the Kodiak could...". It might attract returning players - i mean, the only thing pushing that aspect more would be chucking the skill tree apparently - but for people who take up the game now or at any time in the last 2-3 years it doesn't really mean much other than having to adapt their builds and playstyle to conform to whatever the meta is twisted into by such passes.

Edited by katoult, 05 April 2021 - 01:22 AM.

[lolbbq]

katoult, on 05 April 2021 - 01:21 AM, said:

And that's the real problem. Should an overhaul primarily accomodate a limited subsection of players, or should it accomodate the majority of players including "newbies" and "returnees" that one wants to attract?

What makes you think that the "wants" of these two groups of players are mutually exclusive?

[denAirwalkerrr]

lolbbq, on 05 April 2021 - 01:37 AM, said:

What makes you think that the "wants" of these two groups of players are mutually exclusive?

Cuz obviously comp tryhards want to play only long range trades and nothing else. Right?

[cougurt]

katoult, on 05 April 2021 - 01:21 AM, said:

And that's the real problem. Should an overhaul primarily accomodate a limited subsection of players, or should it accomodate the majority of players including "newbies" and "returnees" that one wants to attract?

If it's the first then
1) the target group should be stated and staked out clearly in order to focus on its concerns
2) one might want to think about flanking it with a "training programme" to possibly enlarge this subsection

In general though i see these passes - not the current weapons pass and only to a limited extent the quirk pass - as pandering to very specific groups. Mostly those people that cry "They nerfed my OP Firestarter by making it huge" or "Back in the day before the engine desync the Kodiak could...". It might attract returning players - i mean, the only thing pushing that aspect more would be chucking the skill tree apparently - but for people who take up the game now or at any time in the last 2-3 years it doesn't really mean much other than having to adapt their builds and playstyle to conform to whatever the meta is twisted into by such passes.

at worst i see it as a mostly neutral change for the majority, and at best it opens up far more options for viable loadouts and mechs that have long been relegated to dumpster status. the kodiak-3 and firestarter feel like an absolute chore to play whether you're a top level player or not. i'll gladly take a possible drop in TTK if it means we can finally have some variety again.