117 replies to this topic

[D A T A]

yep, 7, my bad.again, once quirks can be addresses, i can see some changes being done.

you should calculate, (skill tree included, clan nodes are 0.6 each, while IS nodes are 0.75 each) the dps and sustained DPS of this

BJ2 4stk 6 ( 10 heat 10 velocity 10 range 10 cooldown)

Kintaro 4stk6 (10 cooldown 5 heat 10 velocity)


remember that more velocity (on top of a higher base velocity) means that way more missiles pass through AMS

Edited by D A T A, 13 April 2021 - 11:43 AM.

[Nightbird]

Nothing needs to be changed really, even with the new stats it's will be fine for doing it's only job, cleaning up bad pugs in lights during the last wave in FP.

[pbiggz]

FupDup, on 07 April 2021 - 03:02 AM, said:

Yeah, the patch note reasoning really doesn't line up with the actual result that happened. They said they wanna make Streaks have a more flat performance curve in terms of how they fare vs. different weight classes, but just a straight cooldown nerf with no other changes doesn't do anything of the sort. They're still a light mech counter for the aim-impaired, but just weaker now.

I really hate MWO's Streak design but even I can see that just a straight nerf is unfair to a weapon that doesn't even get used by anyone (Clan Streaks see some use, but IS ones not so much).

To actually fix the feast or famine thing would require changing the way that lock-on missile targeting works, which seems pretty unlikely when we've only got like 4 devs working on the game right now.

Would have been best to give standard SRMs gentle tracking (maybe within a degree or two of the firing vector), and give streaks heavier tracking with a lockon that follows as long as you track the target with your reticle. Lots of ways streaks could have been more interesting. They will never happen.

[Anomalocaris]

Nightbird, on 13 April 2021 - 11:19 AM, said:

2. the cauldron themselves has repeatedly said quirk pass + weapon balance, so we shouldn't consider it right? Unless you want to add in the cost of Clan XL, smaller C-DHS as well?

This is super important IMO. We're not supposed to be considering how the weapons perform on quirked mechs because those quirks are supposed to go away. Otherwise this weapons rebalance will have to happen all over again, amirite?

[Mal Bolge]

D A T A, on 13 April 2021 - 11:29 AM, said:

IS streak are nerfed because they are OP as **** and can demolish with auto aim pretty much everything.

It's hard to take you seriously with statements like this, because clearly they are not.

And I tested it to compare. I took the ARC-5W and filled it up with 6xSSRM6 and went to Frozen City Night Classic to murder the poor commando again and again. Here are the results:

Lock-on time approx 1 - 1.5 sec.
200m 15x - 16x before kill. DD spreads all over target. Same result at 100m.
3xSSRM6 as fast as possible (0.5s between volleys) = 9.5 secs before kill.
Some variation between tries.

Since you mentioned the ASN23 and the BJ2, I tested with those as well.
ASN23 3xSSRM6 full CD skilled = 14.5 secs before kill.
BJ2 4xSSRM full CD skilled = 14 secs before kill.

Clearly this is not OP as **** as you say, and neither is it insta kill, like many others claim. And this is on a stationary stock mech with less armor and no moving out of lock, which happens with a live target.

But it gets better, because then I took the sun spider and loaded it up with 6xATM6 to compare. Here are the results:
Lock-on time approx 1 - 1.5 sec.
200m 7x - 9x before kill. DD spread is less that streaks.
3xATM6 as fast as possible = 7.5 secs before kill.
Some variation between tries.

Just to check, I also loaded it up with 4xATM12. Here are the results:
2xATM12 as fast as possible = 1 sec before kill.

Now we are talking OP and insta-kill. Compared to ATMs, do you still think SSRM6 are OP as ****?

[Remover of Obstacles]

Yah, for less ton you get the same range, faster missiles, more alpha, more dps with regular SRMs. This is why we don't see very many SSRMs. Even with bigger mechs that could boat them. It is just there to farm damage, not effective in any way.

Maybe in the next iteration, try IS SSRMs with 300 meter range base and equal to IS SRM damage and normalize the IS and Clan cooldowns to something in the 4.5 range?

That idea for better spread while tagged seems interesting. I know all shooting at CT was a problem in the past, but it is so bad now.

The extra range gives a slightly better window to get a lock before being overrun. Especially with 150+ kph stealth mechs.

[D A T A]

Streaks and atms are like fish and ice cream.
Comparing streaks to atms is simply mental

Mal Nilsum, on 13 April 2021 - 01:33 PM, said:

It's hard to take you seriously with statements like this, because clearly they are not.

And I tested it to compare. I took the ARC-5W and filled it up with 6xSSRM6 and went to Frozen City Night Classic to murder the poor commando again and again. Here are the results:

Lock-on time approx 1 - 1.5 sec.
200m 15x - 16x before kill. DD spreads all over target. Same result at 100m.
3xSSRM6 as fast as possible (0.5s between volleys) = 9.5 secs before kill.
Some variation between tries.

Since you mentioned the ASN23 and the BJ2, I tested with those as well.
ASN23 3xSSRM6 full CD skilled = 14.5 secs before kill.
BJ2 4xSSRM full CD skilled = 14 secs before kill.

Clearly this is not OP as **** as you say, and neither is it insta kill, like many others claim. And this is on a stationary stock mech with less armor and no moving out of lock, which happens with a live target.

But it gets better, because then I took the sun spider and loaded it up with 6xATM6 to compare. Here are the results:
Lock-on time approx 1 - 1.5 sec.
200m 7x - 9x before kill. DD spread is less that streaks.
3xATM6 as fast as possible = 7.5 secs before kill.
Some variation between tries.

Just to check, I also loaded it up with 4xATM12. Here are the results:
2xATM12 as fast as possible = 1 sec before kill.

Now we are talking OP and insta-kill. Compared to ATMs, do you still think SSRM6 are OP as ****?

Good, now take a laser vomit and try to kill a living commando that moves and tries to hug your legs with maxed armir tree.

Tell me how many times you die in the attempt, and if you quit after the twentyth attempt or earlier.
Try also shooting atms under 120 meters against ninja lights, see how it goes

******* lol

Edited by D A T A, 14 April 2021 - 05:22 PM.

[evil kerensky]

I'm all for nerfing any weapon that doesn't require you too aim. And the only mech I can think of that will be stronger from this is the commando. Every other light will STILL be 1 shot kill from a massed volley of streaks. And the commando won't be because it has hitreg issues on top of armour buffs. Fix it's hitreg and it'll be just as vulnerable as all the other lights.

[Anomalocaris]

D A T A, on 14 April 2021 - 05:20 PM, said:

Streaks and atms are like fish and ice cream.
Comparing streaks to atms is simply mental



Good, now take a laser vomit and try to kill a living commando that moves and tries to hug your legs with maxed armir tree.

Tell me how many times you die in the attempt, and if you quit after the twentyth attempt or earlier.
Try also shooting atms under 120 meters against ninja lights, see how it goes

******* lol

I think that's called moving the goalposts....

Mal Nilsum made a good point and this response does not address it.

[Lousyten]

evilelrond, on 14 April 2021 - 05:46 PM, said:

I'm all for nerfing any weapon that doesn't require you to aim.

Yes.

[Remover of Obstacles]

Remember when PGI wanted you to have to aim and have a lock for lasers?

Imagine if all aim weapons had to have locks to do normal max damage...

Just kidding, that would be horrible... unless you are a meta IS light pilot.

...
The laser lock on derailed the rest of that PTS but it wasn't talked about properly just now.
For those who don't remember or never saw the PTS, the maximum damage before drop off of a laser was adjusted depending on if you had a lock on your target. ie. you had to press R and lock your target to extend the range at which you could apply maximum damage.
EG: A small laser might have a maximum range of 400m but only does maximum damage at 200m. That damage drops off extending out to 400m where it only does scratch damage.
What the lock feature did was change the weapon so that without lock it was something like max damage to 100m but with lock it had max damage to 300m.
It was like calibrating the lasers to the target you had selected[color=#959595].[/color]

[Dogstar]

D A T A, on 13 April 2021 - 11:01 AM, said:

the problem is generated by the fact that we could not do a massive requirk together with this weapon pass.
i can see the streak values getting rebalanced after some quirks on the IS side are halfed

I thought the idea was to balance the weapons _first_ and _then_ fix the quirks? Surely that's a better approach even if it does temporarily give an advantage to certain mechs.

It kind of makes your argument look much weaker when you say that you know it's 'wrong' now but that it'll get fixed later.

Also, after reading this and the recent AC20 thread, are you sure that you are not expressing some bias towards clans? Most of the Cauldron changes look very good and nicely balanced but the streak ones do appear, on face value, to be a significant nerf to a weapon system that, in quick play, is barely used at all thanks to it's severe downsides and the difficulty in maintaining locks that was introduced with the LRM lock changes - which is the opposite of the main intent of the Cauldron changes.

Maybe if we saw some sample builds to illustrate it?

Edited by Dogstar, 15 April 2021 - 04:43 AM.

[Remover of Obstacles]

http://mechspecs.com...350-alts.16562/

There is a maxed out streak build at the bottom. 8x SSRM6 and 1x SSRM4.

I can not in good faith recommend using this build. But it should get you lots of spread damage and match score if you could use up all the ammo.

[Anomalocaris]

evilelrond, on 14 April 2021 - 05:46 PM, said:

I'm all for nerfing any weapon that doesn't require you too aim.

Is there a tutorial on how to hit a commando with streaks without aiming? Asking for a friend.

[Mal Bolge]

D A T A, on 14 April 2021 - 05:20 PM, said:

Streaks and atms are like fish and ice cream.
Comparing streaks to atms is simply mental

Good, now take a laser vomit and try to kill a living commando that moves and tries to hug your legs with maxed armir tree.

Tell me how many times you die in the attempt, and if you quit after the twentyth attempt or earlier.
Try also shooting atms under 120 meters against ninja lights, see how it goes

******* lol

What are you talking about? I think you're missing the point. You do realize that this is not about commandos or killing them right? You do realize that the test was to disprove two false statements in this thread, that streaks insta kill lights and that IS-SSRM6 is OP as ****, which it clearly does. It's a fast easy test that anyone can replicate.

And why wouldn't I compare streaks with ATMs? Of the 3 lock-on weapons we have, streaks and ATMs are the closest. And since someone claimed that streaks could insta kill a light, I disproved that, and at the same time showed which lock-on weapon that is ACTUALLY capable of doing that.

Now I am not against nerfs. In fact I wished the changes would have more of them to counter the inevitable power creep. But the nerfs have to make sense, and nerfing an under performing weapon with so many limitations and counters, just doesn't. Where's the logic behind it? So far the only reason I've heard are false statements. And those over performing streaks boats you mentioned, the ASN23 and the BJ2? I play those a lot, but if I go for streaks instead of SRMs, my damage and kill count suffers a lot.

Oh, and btw. If you seriously need proof that it is possible to kill a live commando with lasers (or any other aim weapon for that matter), just watch the streamers, they do it a lot.

[Dogstar]

Remover of Obstacles, on 15 April 2021 - 05:02 AM, said:

http://mechspecs.com...350-alts.16562/

There is a maxed out streak build at the bottom. 8x SSRM6 and 1x SSRM4.

I can not in good faith recommend using this build. But it should get you lots of spread damage and match score if you could use up all the ammo.

Bother, Marauder II is the only IS assault I don't have otherwise I'd try it out - I'll maybe try something similar on the multi missile Thanatos or an Archer and see how it compares before and after - I'm expecting it to be a terrible experience both ways

Edited by Dogstar, 16 April 2021 - 12:37 AM.

[Remover of Obstacles]

Dogstar, on 16 April 2021 - 12:37 AM, said:

.... - I'm expecting it to be a terrible experience both ways

Yep. I would switch out the head SSRM4 to a SSRM2 and go from three weapon groups for missiles down to two groups with 4xSSRM6 and the SSRM2. Be careful to leave enough time between firing so you don't ghost heat cook yourself. 31.69 extra heat for 8 streaks.

MRM 80/120 is only an extra 1.61/5.23 ghost heat. Probably the better way to go.

Edited by Remover of Obstacles, 16 April 2021 - 03:41 AM.

[lonepeon]

Mal Nilsum, on 15 April 2021 - 12:24 PM, said:

What are you talking about? I think you're missing the point. You do realize that this is not about commandos or killing them right? You do realize that the test was to disprove two false statements in this thread, that streaks insta kill lights and that IS-SSRM6 is OP as ****, which it clearly does. It's a fast easy test that anyone can replicate.

Its completely pointless to do a test on the testing ground when SSRM have better performance spike on a live environnement whereas.every other weapons are at their best on the testing ground.

Your test ATM VS SSRM is as much as valid than comparing SRM VS LRM due to the fact SSRM is alone on its own category.

• ATM is a mid range LRM without IDF, have a heavy enphasize on close range with a deadzone in extreme close range, the tracking system is the same as LRM and needs to retain lock,the missiles spread into a blob weighted around the CT .
  
• SSRM is a close to half mid range lock only weapon without deadzone, it is completely fire and forget, have exceptionnal tracking but each missiles independantly and randomly track "mech's sequeleton".

SSRMs are at is best efficiency on a situationnal enemy behaviour,when enemy run sideways while "arm shielding",when enemy do sideways late acceleration burst or late sharp turn are as much of situations where SSRM have better focused damage near the center of mass even if the arms of the target is alive,outside of those situation you need to grind the arms first before being able to deal any focused enough damage on ST or CT by firing when the target is arm shielding or from the side.
SSRM is on its lowest efficiency as a sand blaster from front or rear.


And now my opinion as what was said on the thread is:
On numbers only POV IS SSRM is an alien with no current counter-part on clan and clan would need a C- ER SSRM6 with the same numbers of C-SSRM6 but weighting 4.5 tons and +100 ish meter more range(before skills) to stay consistent with the numbers of all SSRM, C-SSRM6 is currently the equivalent of IS-SSRM4.

SSRM weak?Sorry, i cant call that weak(and in no other game you will find people calling SSRM-like weaponry weak/trash) when the missiles hit mechs on your back because you fire just before people get to your back and damage are massively weighted on the CT/ST or the more the evasive rating of the enemy mech is high and better is the value of the SSRM.
SSRMs are not weak on themselves but its issue is aggravated by its hardcounter(AMS wall which cannot be negated,ECM/stealth which have counters too) and also by the game's control scheme, if the game would have keybinds to move the torso independently from the crosshair you would be able to make better use of the SSRM flight path and its exceptionnal tracking to have easier focused damage and we would be able to hit RCT and RST in a joust without looking the back of your target making the IS SSRM one of the better weapon on the game for brawl(also if AMS wouldnt exist too)

Edited by lonepeon, 16 April 2021 - 04:17 AM.

[Nightbird]

Just try to remember the last time you saw a IS mech running streak 6s. If they are so powerful, why do nobody use them?

[John Bronco]

Nightbird, on 16 April 2021 - 07:25 AM, said:

Just try to remember the last time you saw a IS mech running streak 6s. If they are so powerful, why do nobody use them?

I've seen you frequently running a 4xSSRM6 Dervish.