49 replies to this topic

[D A T A]

Dhs dissipation = 0.22 each per second
Lams heat= 1.0 per second if active

You have 1.5 tons available, what do you do?

A.) 1ams with 3000 ammo
B.) 1 Lams and sh*t on your own heat sinks for no reasons at all.

Of course AMS is still better than LAMS in any scenario.
The lams buff we did was good: we should have pushed further to 0.6 or even 0.5 heat, but unfortunatelly i got outvoted inside the couldron.

In that case you would still prefear ams in quick play, but maybe in faction play you go LAMS

Edited by D A T A, 21 April 2021 - 09:27 AM.

[x Deathstrike x]

Yes I was thinking for quite some time on which mech to put the new LAMS but TBH the only ones I found were super low heat builds using gauss only or maybe AC5s. Everything else I feared the LAMS would exactly go off to defend against LRMs hitting walls nearby when I am in a brawl with somebody and needed every bit of heat for weapons.

What I would suggest is LAMS to have super low heat like 0.22 but maybe have half the performance of normal AMS.

Edited by x Deathstrike x, 21 April 2021 - 08:54 AM.

[ThreeStooges]

I hardly use lams. Most my builds are laser based so all the cooling is needed for the shooting. Hardly had any lrm/atm hit me last night playing since everyone was ppc/guass boating so I didn't even need a half ton ams.

[FupDup]

The problem is that if we go too low, then LAMS just straight-up replaces AMS (especially for Clans where it's only 1 ton and 1 slot).

Something I'd like is for LAMs to have higher lethality (shoots missiles better) than regular AMS. Thus, you effectively trade offense (heat cap) for defense (stronger iron dome).

We can also add an element of asymmetrical balance to it to give a slight flavor to each faction. Both sides can get a little bit more heat reduction, with IS getting a greater reduction. Both sides can get a bit more range, with Clans getting the greater increase. This follows the theme of Clan lasers having longer range but higher heat than IS lasers (the L in LAMS is laser, after all).

[AncientRaig]

FupDup, on 21 April 2021 - 01:24 PM, said:

The problem is that if we go too low, then LAMS just straight-up replaces AMS (especially for Clans where it's only 1 ton and 1 slot).

Something I'd like is for LAMs to have higher lethality (shoots missiles better) than regular AMS. Thus, you effectively trade offense (heat cap) for defense (stronger iron dome).

We can also add an element of asymmetrical balance to it to give a slight flavor to each faction. Both sides can get a little bit more heat reduction, with IS getting a greater reduction. Both sides can get a bit more range, with Clans getting the greater increase. This follows the theme of Clan lasers having longer range but higher heat than IS lasers (the L in LAMS is laser, after all).

Agreed. LAMS is a hard thing to balance if we only look at its heat generation, giving it a bit more range and damage over the standard AMS and leaving it at its current heat gen or maybe even raising it a little depending on what the data reveals would give it an advantage over the standard AMS on cooler builds and make it a consideration for hotter builds.

[D A T A]

FupDup, on 21 April 2021 - 01:24 PM, said:

The problem is that if we go too low, then LAMS just straight-up replaces AMS (especially for Clans where it's only 1 ton and 1 slot).

Something I'd like is for LAMs to have higher lethality (shoots missiles better) than regular AMS. Thus, you effectively trade offense (heat cap) for defense (stronger iron dome).

We can also add an element of asymmetrical balance to it to give a slight flavor to each faction. Both sides can get a little bit more heat reduction, with IS getting a greater reduction. Both sides can get a bit more range, with Clans getting the greater increase. This follows the theme of Clan lasers having longer range but higher heat than IS lasers (the L in LAMS is laser, after all).

First part of the idea= good, i will suggest it
Second part= bad: is lams can not heat up less than clan atm because in fact it is already indirectly stronger: clan LRMs die waaaaaay more vs ams or lams than IS lrms counterparts.

[Meep Meep]

I use lams on my mg piranha because no heat and it works great soaking up streaks and other short range bursters. Typically though I don't invest in ams of any kind due to radar dep and/or ecm on my mechs.

[FupDup]

D A T A, on 21 April 2021 - 06:06 PM, said:

Second part= bad: is lams can not heat up less than clan atm because in fact it is already indirectly stronger: clan LRMs die waaaaaay more vs ams or lams than IS lrms counterparts.

The game isn't purely IS vs. Clans. IS Lurmboats have to fight IS mechs and Clan Lurmboats have to fight Clan mechs. It's all one big ecosystem.

Also I did suggest letting Clan LAMS have a bit more range than IS LAMS. It's not like I suggested for CLAMS to be a straight downgrade.

Furthermore, with Clan DHS being more easily spammable than IS DHS, the heat would probably even out at the end of the day.

Edited by FupDup, 21 April 2021 - 06:23 PM.

[LordNothing]

i find lams is useful on larger mechs for reducing the amount of ammo that can explode or anything that really isnt pushing its sinks to the limits. ams boats tend to have a higher incidence of ammo explosions, which are usually always fatal. now that case is tonnage free, that might help solve the tinderbox problem. i run my cor-7a with 2 of each to manage heat and allow me to run less ammo and still have ams when its gone, and its currently my highest scoring mech.

the free case everywhere really makes the lams a hard sell. im gonna have to go through 340 mechs and add case to anything that has extra slots. this is why i felt the lams needed longer range for less damage and heat. thus it can cast a larger iron dome, but not as effective. however by covering more area this would make it a stackable with other lams mechs for a team support weapon. you can install those on brawlers so you can cover your team and earn score during the trading phase of combat, turn it off and push when its time.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 April 2021 - 06:31 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

I honestly believe LAMS won't be balanced without significant changes to the heat system in general.

Unless they changed it, or I'm completely full of it, my understanding is that it's currently impossible to dissipate heat while heat is being generated. That being the case, no matter how much you reduce LAMS heat you're still basically shutting down your heat sinks while it's firing.

[PocketYoda]

LAMs still way to hot.. i use AMS

[Heavy Money]

When trying to balance the two, how do you account for LAMS not needing ammo? That's already an advantage. It doesn't run out.
And its heat buildup often doesn't matter. Its not uncommon to be shooting down indirect fired missiles while you yourself are not in combat. In these situations, its strictly superior.

If AMS and LAMS are on equal footing while you're in combat, then LAMS will always be superior overall because its better when you're not in combat (or using loadouts that don't care about heat.) It makes sense for AMS to be better when in a hot fight, and at some point when heat is not much of an issue, LAMS becomes the more efficient choice. But where exactly to draw that line is really tough.

What would be nice is to decouple AMS and LAMS so that they can be disabled separately from each other. This would matter for mechs that can run multiple AMS but might need to disable their LAMS while in the heat of combat. Currently you can only toggle all your AMS.

Edited by Heavy Money, 21 April 2021 - 07:04 PM.

[dario03]

LordNothing, on 21 April 2021 - 06:26 PM, said:

i find lams is useful on larger mechs for reducing the amount of ammo that can explode or anything that really isnt pushing its sinks to the limits. ams boats tend to have a higher incidence of ammo explosions, which are usually always fatal. now that case is tonnage free, that might help solve the tinderbox problem. i run my cor-7a with 2 of each to manage heat and allow me to run less ammo and still have ams when its gone, and its currently my highest scoring mech.

the free case everywhere really makes the lams a hard sell. im gonna have to go through 340 mechs and add case to anything that has extra slots. this is why i felt the lams needed longer range for less damage and heat. thus it can cast a larger iron dome, but not as effective. however by covering more area this would make it a stackable with other lams mechs for a team support weapon. you can install those on brawlers so you can cover your team and earn score during the trading phase of combat, turn it off and push when its time.

AMS ammo no longer explodes.

patch notes said:

AMS:

AMS (Clan and IS):

Remove ammo explosion from AMS
AMS Ammo per ton increased to 3000 (from 2200)


Laser AMS (Clan and IS):

Heat decreased to 1/s (from 2.85)

Edited by dario03, 21 April 2021 - 07:45 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

I haven't tried the game at all, so take my 2-cents with a grain of salt.

But seems to me that it's a hard way to balance selecting between the two, when they offer basically the same role. Of course AMS would still be better, in most cases 1 ton of ammo already works. If you buff the LAMS to below 0.5 to 0.6s where it's negligible, now why pick AMS at all when you can use LAMS with no ammo constraint? And in Clan's case it's even 0.5t less of an investment. So LAMs would work better on colder builds? Isn't that basically what happens right now?

I think the AMS vs LAMS should have more than just a question of ammo constraint, but also which of the two equipment work better against different missile weapons. Maybe make LAMS practically heatless, and easy to deal against LRMs, but if you want protection against SSRMs, MRMs, and ATMs, you need standard AMS that has the risk of ammo shortage.

Again, I haven't tried the new balance, I'm enamored of a different game for the moment. So again, take this with a grain of salt.

Heavy Money, on 21 April 2021 - 07:03 PM, said:

What would be nice is to decouple AMS and LAMS so that they can be disabled separately from each other. This would matter for mechs that can run multiple AMS but might need to disable their LAMS while in the heat of combat. Currently you can only toggle all your AMS.

Pretty sure you can do that, albeit manually using the weapon groups.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 April 2021 - 08:36 PM.

[Elizander]

It's hard to balance LAMS as they are now because they are either better than AMS or they aren't.

If LAMS is going to be more heat neutral, then they should shoot down less missiles than regular AMS or have much shorter range that they can't be used as an umbrella to protect a team.

Edited by Elizander, 21 April 2021 - 08:43 PM.

[SPNKRGrenth]

I'm a fan of the idea of AMS and LAMS performing somewhat different roles.

Just spitballing here, numbers used aren't super well thought out, only a general idea.

LAMS as a longer range, weaker, very low heat missile defense, that helps thin out LRMs and ATMs from farther out, but don't have the DPS to be very good at anything fired from close range. Something like 250 optimal range and 430 max range, but only 70ish DPS, +30 DPS from skill nodes, 0.3-0.5 heat per second.

AMS as a shorter range, stronger, zero heat missile defense, decently effective against everything in range. 130 optimal range, 220 max range, 120 DPS, +45 DPS from skill nodes, 3000 ammo per ton.

Then they'd each have a better defined role, so it'd be less about choosing between giving up tonnage for ammo Vs sacrificing heat management, and more about team ranged LRM suppression Vs close all purpose missile reduction.

For reference, current AMS stats are 190 optimal range, 275 max range, 105 DPS, +45 DPS from skill nodes, 3000 ammo per ton for AMS, 1 heat per second for LAMS.

Edited by SPNKRGrenth, 21 April 2021 - 09:23 PM.

[Heavy Money]

The6thMessenger, on 21 April 2021 - 08:33 PM, said:

Pretty sure you can do that, albeit manually using the weapon groups.

Nope
You really should be able to.

[JadeTornado]

As long as they shoot through walls I want them nerfed as hard as possible.

[ShiverMeRivets]

LAMS should simply stop firing when you reach 90% heat (set some value).

They don’t really generate a lot of heat because they don’t fire constantly. The problems occur when you are at the heat limit because you fired your weapons and THEN the LAMS fires a burst and shuts you down / do heat damage.

[The6thMessenger]

Heavy Money, on 21 April 2021 - 09:29 PM, said:

Nope
You really should be able to.

Right my bad.