85 replies to this topic

[Alexander of Macedon]

Maugged, on 01 May 2021 - 09:35 AM, said:

And where did anyone stated they were constantly one shotted?

I certainly didn't.

And, again:

Maugged, on 01 May 2021 - 03:51 AM, said:

Yea of course. If people playing light mechs get one shotted it's because they need to git gud hur dur...

What did you mean by this, then? Are you complaining about being constantly one-shotted or not?

Maugged, on 01 May 2021 - 09:35 AM, said:

They just discussed about being one shotted more since the "cauldron revamp" which boosted weapons.

So you are complaining about being "constantly" one-shotted.

Maugged, on 01 May 2021 - 09:35 AM, said:

The mech that carries more weapons than them are now having it easier to kill them. It's a fact based on logic not personnal feelings. Boosting weapons will always profit those who have the most weapons and highest alpha. Common sense.

The weapon pass didn't buff anything beyond the existing upper crust of performance. The only real straight buff to PPFLD was the AC/20 + 3x SNPPC build, and that doesn't do anything better than 2x HGR in the realm of close-range PPFLD. The April patch didn't change the state of the game in terms of lights being shot. Either you think being one-shotted is a balance problem or you don't. If you do, it's because you get one-shotted on a regular basis. If that's happening, you're bad at playing lights.

[Capt Deadpool]

justcallme A S H, on 01 May 2021 - 10:55 AM, said:

If you could deal 60pt PPLFD @ 800m... What relevance does 100m have? That same 800m can of course be done at, 100m.

Come on man....

Mobility, Quirks and Rescale are all coming in 2021. The first 2 Cauldron can control. The latter is on PGI and they will confirm the ETA when they set it I would imagine.

Until then - as with the last 4 years - peeps are just gonna have to wait a few months more.

Calling out the Cauldron with a "what are you gonna do" is a bit sensationalist in light of what the Cauldron has already done and is working on.

The roadmap and plan is set and we can only work within that plan.

Yo Ash, I would say Darian (the OP) is not necessarily not appreciative of all the Cauldron has done thus far or is as impatient as perhaps you are assuming (he definitely SHOULD be both appreciative and patient if he is not). I believe it is simply a passionate light player's concern for what the plans will be for his favorite class, historically and presently under-performing relative to others, when he has seen the changes that have made the battlefield even more dangerous for them, as of late.

Also to Darian, I would say there is nothing wrong with your question, but to have faith. Ash, Krasno and The Cauldron are both listening and engaging with the community and are extremely knowledgable about the game, something PGI is not and has not been. We are in a new era.

(Edited for clarity.)

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 01 May 2021 - 12:02 PM.

[Maugged]

Alexander of Macedon, on 01 May 2021 - 11:09 AM, said:

I certainly didn't.

And, again:


What did you mean by this, then? Are you complaining about being constantly one-shotted or not?

So you are complaining about being "constantly" one-shotted.


The weapon pass didn't buff anything beyond the existing upper crust of performance. The only real straight buff to PPFLD was the AC/20 + 3x SNPPC build, and that doesn't do anything better than 2x HGR in the realm of close-range PPFLD. The April patch didn't change the state of the game in terms of lights being shot. Either you think being one-shotted is a balance problem or you don't. If you do, it's because you get one-shotted on a regular basis. If that's happening, you're bad at playing lights.

The problem is that you assume a lot of things instead of trying to understand what people write. Like you assume i'm complaining or even talking about my personnal experience which i didn't. The issue is on your end, not mine.

[justcallme A S H]

Capt Deadpool, on 01 May 2021 - 11:12 AM, said:

Yo Ash, I would not say Darion is not necessarily not appreciative of all the Cauldron has done thus far or is as impatient as perhaps you are assuming (he definitely SHOULD be both appreciative and patient if he is not). I believe it is simply a passionate light player's concern for what the plans will be for his favorite class, historically and presently under-performing relative to others, when he has seen the changes that have made the battlefield even more dangerous for them, as if late.

Also to Darion, I would say there is nothing wrong with your question, but to have faith. Ash, Krasno and The Cauldron are both listening and engaging with the community and are extremely knowledgable about the game, something PGI is not and has not been. We are in a new era.

I did not mean Daeron/PGI at all - I was talking about you or rather the player-base at large.

The plan is clear. Mobility in May and Quirks in June.

After that - look at all of it and adjust as needed. I know it takes a lot for the playerbase to trust what is coming after a lot of issues over the years.

All the Cauldron can do - we will do. OF course try our best to make things fun and balanced.

PGI (Matt/Daeron) have been backing us heavily with regular meetings, discussions and super frank/open dialogue. It's absolute amazing!

So lets just keep moving forward with that in mind and see where we are in July basically.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 01 May 2021 - 11:53 AM.

[Capt Deadpool]

justcallme A S H, on 01 May 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

I did not mean Daeron/PGI at all - I was talking about you or rather the player-base at large.

The plan is clear. Mobility in May and Quirks in June.

After that - look at all of it and adjust as needed. I know it takes a lot for the playerbase to trust what is coming after a lot of issues over the years.

All the Cauldron can do - we will do. OF course try our best to make things fun and balanced.

PGI (Matt/Daeron) have been backing us heavily with regular meetings, discussions and super frank/open dialogue. It's absolute amazing!

So lets just keep moving forward with that in mind and see where we are in July basically.

I was referring to Darian whom you quoted in your reply (the OP, whose name I misspelled XD). It's all good, my dude! I would say the vast majority are excited for what is in store.

[justcallme A S H]

Ah haha whoopsie

I did not realise that. Apart from that, the rest stands hhaha

[ShiverMeRivets]

When more damage is flying around and TTK gets shorter - being small and fast is relatively more important than heaving armor. Taken to the extreme - if everyone gets one-shotted, the ones that are hardest to hit have the best armor.

Sure lights die more easily now, but so is everyone else. Since lights were already dying by just a few hits before, they are in a relatively better place now, defensively, comparing to the survivability of the other classes. Counter intuitive I know.

[dario03]

Capt Deadpool, on 01 May 2021 - 11:05 AM, said:

Great to hear you and other Cauldroners main lights, Krasno! I don't see you in-game too often so I was not aware.

And yes that is an absolute indisputable fact that light pilot survival/success relies heavily upon utilizing angles, taking advantage of terrain features to protect vulnerabilities such as legs, knowing when to press and when to retreat, etc. These are all 'best practices' and anyone who is not doing this would not have lasted long even before the patch.

I would say, however, that The Cauldron, perhaps with input from the community, needs to make a philosophical decision with regard to the light class: is the intention to keep it a class that will perpetually be the least-used, lowest performing, and least-impactful class relative to others in the hands of a typical pilot, or is the intention for lights to achieve parity with the impactfulness of other classes in the hands of your typical pilot?

And while I can agree with you that I am not particularly having any 'great deal of problems' piloting lights since the patch, neither you or I are good barometers for the typical light pilot experience. The fact remains that the velocity buffs (and planned future agility quirks) have been and will be net nerfs to what is already the least-played and lowest performing class. I, of course, am not privy to The Cauldron's planned defensive quirks for lights, but I remain skeptical that anything except a significant reduction in hitbox sizes for most lights will do anything to mitigate their lack of firepower and innate fragility relative to other mechs and put them at parity with the effectiveness of mediums, heavies, and assaults on the battlefield in the hands of a typical pilot.

The big thing here is how much impact will the other changes have. I have been saying that lights will need pretty big buffs to offset mobility and weapon changes pretty much since the Cauldron began. Thing is, I have my opinion on how much will be needed, other Cauldron guys have theirs. So we have a rough idea on what to change but the exact details can easily change once the mobility changes go through. Smaller hitboxes is probably less likely than armor quirks or more mobility though.
Later on if more things are needed, and we get access to change things beyond xml I wouldn't mind looking at some things that hurt the class. Like increasing or removing the legged speed cap is something I would like to see, but isn't xml. Changing overheat damage so it isn't insta-death for a 20t mech while being a common thing to do on bigger mechs would be another.
But until we see the effects of other changes nothing is set in stone and none of us want to promise something that hasn't been agreed upon.

[Capt Deadpool]

ShiverMeRivets, on 01 May 2021 - 12:09 PM, said:

When more damage is flying around and TTK gets shorter - being small and fast is relatively more important than heaving armor. Taken to the extreme - if everyone gets one-shotted, the ones that are hardest to hit have the best armor.

Sure lights die more easily now, but so is everyone else. Since lights were already dying by just a few hits before, they are in a relatively better place now, defensively, comparing to the survivability of the other classes. Counter intuitive I know.

Your logic is a bit flawed, brother. Increased PPFLD velocities to not have a a linear/equivalent impact on all classes; lights are disproportionately affected by this, as PPFLD are far more of a direct counter to lights relative to other classes, and players with worse aim are now more easily able to hit lights (the least used, least impactful class, which I have no problem repeating ) with PPFLD weapons.

[Capt Deadpool]

dario03, on 01 May 2021 - 12:14 PM, said:

The big thing here is how much impact will the other changes have. I have been saying that lights will need pretty big buffs to offset mobility and weapon changes pretty much since the Cauldron began. Thing is, I have my opinion on how much will be needed, other Cauldron guys have theirs. So we have a rough idea on what to change but the exact details can easily change once the mobility changes go through. Smaller hitboxes is probably less likely than armor quirks or more mobility though.
Later on if more things are needed, and we get access to change things beyond xml I wouldn't mind looking at some things that hurt the class. Like increasing or removing the legged speed cap is something I would like to see, but isn't xml. Changing overheat damage so it isn't insta-death for a 20t mech while being a common thing to do on bigger mechs would be another.
But until we see the effects of other changes nothing is set in stone and none of us want to promise something that hasn't been agreed upon.

Great info; thanks Dario.

Out of curiosity, where do you stand on the philosophical question I posed earlier? Would you personally like to see lights played as often as other classes, with similar impact on wins and losses as other classes currently have? Or do you believe that they should remain the least played class and on average less impactful relative to other classes, i.e. relegated generally to higher skilled players to be able to have as much of an impact as your average player in any of the other classes? If the former, it seems to me the only way to get more players to play them would if they did not perceive a disadvantage to light class viability due to their fragility and firepower which could only be mitigated by significant hit box reduction and/or agikity/speed increase.

(No problem at all with the 'wait and see' approach you mentioned, and not asking for you to commit to or promise anything, BTW; purely curious).

[FupDup]

dario03, on 01 May 2021 - 12:14 PM, said:

Like increasing or removing the legged speed cap is something I would like to see, but isn't xml.

I think it might be somewhat XML-based given that we have a skill in the skill tree dedicated to reducing the penalty a bit (but it's capped at a low value which makes it useless). I dunno if the max cap thing can be changed just in the skill tree or if it's "hardcoded" into the game like engine side torso penalties are.

[Darian DelFord]

justcallme A S H, on 01 May 2021 - 10:55 AM, said:

If you could deal 60pt PPLFD @ 800m... What relevance does 100m have? That same 800m can of course be done at, 100m.

Come on man....

Mobility, Quirks and Rescale are all coming in 2021. The first 2 Cauldron can control. The latter is on PGI and they will confirm the ETA when they set it I would imagine.

Until then - as with the last 4 years - peeps are just gonna have to wait a few months more.

Calling out the Cauldron with a "what are you gonna do" is a bit sensationalist in light of what the Cauldron has already done and is working on.

The roadmap and plan is set and we can only work within that plan.

justcallme A S H, on 01 May 2021 - 12:02 PM, said:

Ah haha whoopsie

I did not realise that. Apart from that, the rest stands hhaha

I realize that I learned not to take anything personal on these forums a long long time ago.

However your missing my point on the relevance of 800m vs 100m argument.

They are the same weapon system. Gauss PPC's AC's so on and so forth. They are highly effective at long range (Talking about Pre Patch) as they were at short Range (PPC and Gauss) . The last patch has addressed the Distance a tad but the overall problem has stayed the same. However the ML which is probably the most common light mech weapon is only effective at short range. That is my point. Lights do not have the ability to cover ALL range categories with weapons that are effective such as the heavier chassis. With the removal of some of the minimum ranges on of the PPC's it has only made that problem worse.

I called out the cauldron, because, Weapons Quirks and are in your preview as well as other things. Can you make PGI do anything no, and I understand that. I think you guys overall did a great job with the last patch, we had to start somewhere and it might as well be there.... I have no problem with that.

However as stated above I am a dedicated light pilot, it is all I play. Since the last patch the PPFLD has gone off the chart. My question is simply, how are any future changes going to effect lights. I ask because while ranges did increase and some heat decreased for "Light" weapons, the buff's to the PPFLD far exceeded what the lights were handed.

Again, I know you can only do what you can do, and I am glad that PGI finally got the stick out of their arse and did something. This is a foundation, I am hoping it can be built upon,.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 01 May 2021 - 12:36 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

ShiverMeRivets, on 01 May 2021 - 12:09 PM, said:

When more damage is flying around and TTK gets shorter - being small and fast is relatively more important than heaving armor. Taken to the extreme - if everyone gets one-shotted, the ones that are hardest to hit have the best armor.

Sure lights die more easily now, but so is everyone else. Since lights were already dying by just a few hits before, they are in a relatively better place now, defensively, comparing to the survivability of the other classes. Counter intuitive I know.

I do not quite how to take what your saying here. Not everyone gets one shotted.... this is the easiest way to understand the problem facing light mechs now..... and in the past.....

A Light turns the wrong corner..... they die in one shot.. Take an heavy or an assault.... they turn that wrong corner, they at least live long enough to be able to get behind the corner.

Simply put Heavies and assaults do not have their match ended by making a one mistake. A light gets caught they are dead, there is very little room for mistakes.

Capt Deadpool, on 01 May 2021 - 11:12 AM, said:

Also to Darian, I would say there is nothing wrong with your question, but to have faith. Ash, Krasno and The Cauldron are both listening and engaging with the community and are extremely knowledgable about the game, something PGI is not and has not been. We are in a new era.

(Edited for clarity.)

Welp as mentioned in my post to Ash, had to start somewhere, no problem with that..... I just want to make sure the lights don't get left behind again.... currently this last patch did not really do to to much to help us the way it did all the heavier chassis.

[dario03]

Capt Deadpool, on 01 May 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

Great info; thanks Dario.

Out of curiosity, where do you stand on the philosophical question I posed earlier? Would you personally like to see lights played as often as other classes, with similar impact on wins and losses as other classes currently have? Or do you believe that they should remain the least played class and on average less impactful relative to other classes, i.e. relegated generally to higher skilled players to be able to have as much of an impact as your average player in any of the other classes? If the former, it seems to me the only way to get more players to play them would if they did not perceive a disadvantage to light class viability due to their fragility and firepower which could only be mitigated by significant hit box reduction and/or agikity/speed increase.

(No problem at all with the 'wait and see' approach you mentioned, and not asking for you to commit to or promise anything, BTW; purely curious).

I would like to see balance stay about where it is, or have lights a bit more powerful. Some lights are pretty good but we need more performing at that level or higher.

FupDup, on 01 May 2021 - 12:30 PM, said:

I think it might be somewhat XML-based given that we have a skill in the skill tree dedicated to reducing the penalty a bit (but it's capped at a low value which makes it useless). I dunno if the max cap thing can be changed just in the skill tree or if it's "hardcoded" into the game like engine side torso penalties are.

That skill can be changed, but getting it over 50kph cannot afaik.

Edited by dario03, 01 May 2021 - 12:53 PM.

[Capt Deadpool]

What seems only logical to me for the longevity of the game and for overall balance would be to ensure the weaknesses and strengths of each class are balanced against each other in such a way that equal proportions of players are attracted to playing each class. i.e.:

-Assaults are slow/fat enough to not attract a greater number of player to them due to their highest firepower/armor.
-Heavies (etc.)
-Mediums (etc.)
-Lights should attract an equal proportion of players as the other classes due to their hitboxes/speed/agility to make up for their weak armor/firepower, with the current 'least bad' lights potentially left where they are or potentially even getting nerfed if necessary.

Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion and I have no problem with the 'wait and see' approach, but I have yet to hear a compelling argument as to why this approach to class balance, using extremely helpful metrics such as proportion of the population is playing each class and win/loss percentages attributable to each class is not utilized. W/L percentages across classes as well as the proportion of the population playing each class should, IMO be roughly equal to ensure a healthy game, and such philosophy is used to great effect in other games. I know this would require a significant amount if work to achieve, but long-term goals can of course be very helpful.

Now a psychological attraction to players wanting to play the bigger, tankier, higher firepower classes does exist, so absolute perfect parity doesn't need to be achieved, but this is where taking W/L comes into play to achieve balance.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 02 May 2021 - 10:08 PM.

[JediPanther]

Since no re-re-scale (for now) I'm seeing the best lights have are mobility or quarks. While I haven't been playing I've watched my brother play. From what I've seen of low tier it is still dominated by the fle/lct-pb. A rare (c) jenner probably used for an event challenge. If a light needs god tier quirks to even be considered to use it would be better off to make that god tier quirk a permanent stat of the mech and add on a different quirk.

[Fishtiddies]

I have basically put my Urbanmech on the shelf since there is no point of running it. One typical pinpoint alpha will one shot it from full health if it hits a side torso(Which doesnt seem very difficult). There is no point of being the "Tankiest" light when you still die in one shot.

[pattonesque]

Fishtiddies, on 01 May 2021 - 03:19 PM, said:

I have basically put my Urbanmech on the shelf since there is no point of running it. One typical pinpoint alpha will one shot it from full health if it hits a side torso(Which doesnt seem very difficult). There is no point of being the "Tankiest" light when you still die in one shot.

Lots of heavy pinpoint alpha existed before this patch too, you had 2HGR/MPL Annihilators and Fafnirs dropping nigh-untwistable 80-point alphas

[LordNothing]

Krasnopesky, on 01 May 2021 - 08:30 AM, said:

The Cauldron has a lot of light pilot advocates, myself included.

Quirks will be the largest boost in Light 'Mech viability. There are many quirks specifically focused on Light 'Mechs including some large defensive quirk buffs for Lights with very little defensive quirks currently, ammo quirks on some Light 'Mechs to better allow them to bring ammo based builds, and some special new quirks for the true 'bottom of the barrel' Light Mechs.

Snubs are also being changed to less pinpoint damage and more splash damage which will help alleviate some people's concerns over pinpoint damage.

I personally have not had a great deal of problems piloting Light Mechs as a solo player in QP. The same concepts of not exposing your Mech unnecessarily, attacking from the flanks, choosing your battles wisely, always be moving etc still apply.

ive been advocating splashy snubs for some time now. glad to see the cauldron finally saw the light. splash is still useful as a mild soft counter to torso twisting, since splash can propagate through a shield side torso and drop a couple points on the ct, which comes in handy if you come across a pilot who can twist like a boss and you need to pop that cherry ct. though i never really considered it as buff to lights until now. its a good way to make the weapon stay useful at brawling bigger mechs without being too leathal against squirrels. i think i like this development.

havent had much time to play the changes unfortunately, due to all the travel ive had to do lately. but i did play both snub builds and squirrels and havent really noticed any major difference other than having to scrutinize a couple more of the enemy's build choices when deciding whether or not to engage a target. there have been a couple incidences of getting instagibbed when starting to trade, but i attributed that more to the large number of skilled players in the wild after the patch.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 May 2021 - 05:32 PM.

[Fishtiddies]

pattonesque, on 01 May 2021 - 04:27 PM, said:

Lots of heavy pinpoint alpha existed before this patch too, you had 2HGR/MPL Annihilators and Fafnirs dropping nigh-untwistable 80-point alphas

Thanks, Kanye very cool. Now there is practically double the amount per match.