230 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

some these changes are bad. theyre just going to be a reminder of why assaults like the kodiak had their agility nerfed in the first place. it was nerfed for a reason. people are about to get a repeat lesson.

Quote

Assaults with physically big hitboxes, like Kodiak, Banshee, Awesome etc. should have 110 Deg/s torso speed,

no. they should just not have physically big hitboxes.

an atlas weighs 3 times more than a jenner, so it should logically only be 3 times the volume of a jenner.

assaults needed proper scaling more than they needed increased mobility.

increasing the mobility of assaults achieves the exact opposite of what the game needed which is role warfare.

and increasing the mobility of lights also is not going to compensate them adequately because theres diminishing returns on mobility. giving lights more mobility is not going to have the desired effect. its not what lights need.

Edited by Khobai, 03 May 2021 - 02:37 AM.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Khobai, on 03 May 2021 - 02:20 AM, said:

increasing the mobility of assaults achieves the exact opposite of what the game needed which is role warfare.

And here I thought what game needs is to be fun to play instead of needing almost about 10 seconds to twist away 65 degrees and back to enemies in a lot of current heavies and assaults.

[D A T A]

Darian DelFord, on 02 May 2021 - 08:05 PM, said:

So once again a 100 ton mech will be able to face its rear in less than 1 second?

Unfortunatelly not...the buff given to 100 tonners non brawlers are very small compared to the buffs given to mechs from 75t below

[x Deathstrike x]

I think Darian DelFord is concerned about his favourite mech the Flea to be less effective.
However, considering the weapon buffs and agility increase mechs like the Firestarter with 8x SPL should become much more viable again.
With the micro pulse laser we even got an new overperforming light which is the PIR-2.
Lowering heat of IS ML and ERML also buffed lights in a way.
So overall I would say lights will not get the short end of the stick. Lights got their buffs as well.
It's just not the Flea that gets all the love

Edited by x Deathstrike x, 03 May 2021 - 02:58 AM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Khobai, on 03 May 2021 - 02:20 AM, said:

an atlas weighs 3 times more than a jenner, so it should logically only be 3 times the volume of a jenner.

I am once again asking you to remember that tonnage ratings are not the actual total tonnage of the mech, only the amount of armor & equipment it can mount. If you really believe that 10t of structural components in a humanoid configuration can support 90t of additional mass, I have a bridge to sell you.

[Bud Crue]

Maybe this isn't the place to ask, but does/will the agility patch also include JJ buffs (see Ash's Kodiak vid of a couple weeks ago)?

[evil kerensky]

What's with all the negativity about lights? They're stronger than ever before. Put 10 mgs on them and do 10dps with no heat and high crit chance, then focus rear torsos.

There was a time when lights were WAY worse, and only the unpredictable and lucky could make them work. I remember people used to brag about being able to get multiple kills in a locust. Now it's almost expected of light pilots.

Dearest cauldron members, don't make lights stronger. Just start making light piloting guides. Like torso twisting, it's a lost art that needs to be reintroduced to the community.

[Bowelhacker]

Speaking of negativity about lights, can we quirk the taller mechs so they can at least see down a bit more to shoot leghumpers?

[PocketYoda]

All these light pilots finally sweating.. Good to see.

[Darian DelFord]

Nightbird, on 02 May 2021 - 09:33 PM, said:

If I remember 2017 correctly, the queue was 5-10% lights whereas today it is 10-15%. That been said, I don't mind if the light pilots club became more exclusive, we all know that the worse the pilot, the more tonnage needed to perform.

I'll be honest with ya, I wish PGI would post it somewhere, the true percentages of the weight classes played. I play at all hours EST, morning afternoon or night, and the numbers are all over the place. Lights are usually, not always but usually far under the other weight classes.

LouisTerrin, on 03 May 2021 - 12:01 AM, said:

The biggest thing you're gonna be waiting for then is the re-rescaling. When lights over 20 tons stop being humongous, they'll become more survivable. They've gotten their firepower back, they're about to get their agility back, all that's left is to put them on a diet so they get their small size back.

And this is REALLY a problem that I have...... we have all been screaming, lights especially, for the re-scaling to happen, that was the single largest nerf to light mechs in this game. It made what 75+% of them nigh unplayable. The cauldron I do not think has any power over this, and its an undertaking that PGI has to do.

Khobai, on 03 May 2021 - 02:20 AM, said:

some these changes are bad. theyre just going to be a reminder of why assaults like the kodiak had their agility nerfed in the first place. it was nerfed for a reason. people are about to get a repeat lesson.

And this is why I made the original post in this threat about a 100 ton assault mech being able to fire in its rear arc in less than a second. The Kodiak could do that. Seriously, we have vids of it.... like 1.3 seconds if I remember correctly. Now with all that said, I can not tell you how the changes above are going to physically affect these units, gonna have to wait and see. But you are correct there is a reason their mobility was changed.

D A T A, on 03 May 2021 - 02:43 AM, said:

Unfortunatelly not...the buff given to 100 tonners non brawlers are very small compared to the buffs given to mechs from 75t below

Hope so

x Deathstrike x, on 03 May 2021 - 02:58 AM, said:

I think Darian DelFord is concerned about his favourite mech the Flea to be less effective.
However, considering the weapon buffs and agility increase mechs like the Firestarter with 8x SPL should become much more viable again.
With the micro pulse laser we even got an new overperforming light which is the PIR-2.
Lowering heat of IS ML and ERML also buffed lights in a way.
So overall I would say lights will not get the short end of the stick. Lights got their buffs as well.
It's just not the Flea that gets all the love

Actually the Jenner is my favorite light mech . I just play the flea now cause its one of the few viable light mechs. I have toyed with many of the builds, and most suffer from the same problem, being obliterated at the range they have to get < 150m to be effective. The Piranha , well, its the Piranha. The lights did get the short end of the stick. With the amount of PPFLD running around, its what doubled? Lights did get minor weapon buffs yes, never argued that, my point / counter point, is the heavier chassis benefited far more from it then the lights did.

evilelrond, on 03 May 2021 - 04:06 AM, said:

What's with all the negativity about lights? They're stronger than ever before. Put 10 mgs on them and do 10dps with no heat and high crit chance, then focus rear torsos.

There was a time when lights were WAY worse, and only the unpredictable and lucky could make them work. I remember people used to brag about being able to get multiple kills in a locust. Now it's almost expected of light pilots.

Dearest cauldron members, don't make lights stronger. Just start making light piloting guides. Like torso twisting, it's a lost art that needs to be reintroduced to the community.

LOL, Spoken like someone who has little knowledge of light play.


Overall I am for change, I just see all these changes headed in a direction that will not level the playing field as even as we could get it.... yet..... I know this is a process, and the process will take time.


You want to help lights.... REDUCE the sensor profile. I have never understood why a 20 ton mech has the same profile as a 100 ton mech in this game.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 03 May 2021 - 05:16 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 03 May 2021 - 02:20 AM, said:

some these changes are bad. theyre just going to be a reminder of why assaults like the kodiak had their agility nerfed in the first place. it was nerfed for a reason. people are about to get a repeat lesson.

And to think the Kodiak had its mobility buffed in 2019 because PGI nerfed it too hard!

Khobai, on 03 May 2021 - 02:20 AM, said:

increasing the mobility of lights also is not going to compensate them adequately because theres diminishing returns on mobility. giving lights more mobility is not going to have the desired effect. its not what lights need.

Well the statement of diminishing returns is simply not correct.

With higher base values and skill tree, which has 24.5% accel/decell is possible, the gains for lights are massive if you think with the big picture in mind.

Slower / less agile mechs is where the diminishing returns exist vs nodes spent when the base value is so low, and still is, compared to lights.

Diminishing returns for lights, generally, is survival tree as investing 15 nodes for an extra 3 armour is simple not worth it if you can increase the mobility enough you can get in/out and around cover with much greater speed as you would get legged anyway by 40-60pts of dmg - armour tree or not.


Rescale is hopefully coming later this year. I would guess Sept but there is no confirmation of it.

[Darian DelFord]

justcallme A S H, on 03 May 2021 - 05:14 AM, said:

Diminishing returns for lights, generally, is survival tree as investing 15 nodes for an extra 3 armour is simple not worth it if you can increase the mobility enough you can get in/out and around cover with much greater speed as you would get legged anyway by 40-60pts of dmg - armour tree or not.

There are lights that actually spec that??

Thats another area of concern the stupid skill tree..... garbage from the time it was implemented. Sorry tangent

[Nayru]

you'd be kind of crazy to not take +armor for urb

i suspect the ones that die substantially easier than others haven't, xl aside

[Darian DelFord]

Nayru, on 03 May 2021 - 05:27 AM, said:

you'd be kind of crazy to not take +armor for urb

i suspect the ones that die substantially easier than others haven't, xl aside

That's Kinda Ash's point. NO light mech is armored buff like the Urbie is. There is no sense for any other light mech to spec in the surviveability tree. The returns are just not worth it. Not even on a mech like the Oxide.

[RickySpanish]

Awesome Pretty Baby needs help, she's a fatty with effectively 2 energy and 3 missile hardpoints strewn about willy-nilly. Perhaps she is just too ugly in every way, but if anyone can save her it's The Cauldron.

[Wid1046]

I was hoping that mechs that relied heavily on maneuverability would still retain an advantage in that area. At least the Cicada and Viper did receive substantial buffs, however for some reason the Gargoyle was completely ignored. It wasn't a relatively OP mech like the Vulcan, so I don't get why it needed to be nerfed relative to other assaults and heavies. It was an assault that played like a medium, and now that will certainly not be the case. The Zeus also should have received a buff, and yet it's accel/decel were left the same. It's not like the Zeus was overpowered either.

I also don't agree with the decision to make the Flea variants that can equip masc have worse accel than the ones that cannot equip masc. These aren't omni mechs where masc is locked in, you should be able to choose not to take masc and still have your full accel rate.

Khobai, on 03 May 2021 - 02:20 AM, said:

increasing the mobility of lights also is not going to compensate them adequately because theres diminishing returns on mobility. giving lights more mobility is not going to have the desired effect. its not what lights need.

justcallme A S H, on 03 May 2021 - 05:14 AM, said:

Well the statement of diminishing returns is simply not correct.

With higher base values and skill tree, which has 24.5% accel/decell is possible, the gains for lights are massive if you think with the big picture in mind.

He's not talking about raw numbers for accel/decel not increasing by as much with skill nodes, but rather that increasing accel/decel will have less of an effect on survivability once you pass a certain point. The Awesome for example had its accel buffed by less than 5 kph/s and decreased the time until it hits max speed by 0.68 seconds, while the Viper had its accel buffed by over 7.5 kph/s and its time to hit max speed decreased by only 0.14 seconds. The less than 5 kph/s buff to the Awesome is a greater buff to it than the over 7.5 kph/s buff is to the Viper. An even more extreme example of this is the Dire Wolf, it only had it's accel increased by 2.5 kph/s and its time to max speed dropped by 0.92 seconds. This will be a massive (and welcome) change to the chassis, but a 2.5 kph/s change to a light or medium would be virtually unnoticeable.

These changes are overall still very positive and will breath life into a lot of poorly performing mechs. There is some room for additional tweaking however.

Edited by Wid1046, 03 May 2021 - 07:49 AM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Nightbird, on 02 May 2021 - 09:33 PM, said:

If I remember 2017 correctly, the queue was 5-10% lights whereas today it is 10-15%. That been said, I don't mind if the light pilots club became more exclusive, we all know that the worse the pilot, the more tonnage needed to perform.

Well then, if that’s the case... dear PGI- can I haz the Orca? I need me some Orca!

[AlphaStrikeFire]

What is the concern about speed? I know about the resizing, but I wasn’t around when speed got nerfed, so I don’t know what you’re talking about. Is it KPH speed, or is it torso mobility, or is it both?

[Darian DelFord]

IL ORSO, on 02 May 2021 - 07:58 PM, said:

Hello everyone IL ORSO AKA (bear_cl4w) here. As of recent the Cauldron has put together a proposition for an agility pass. The numbers can be seen at: https://www.mwocomp.com/patches.html But if you just want to know what those numbers mean, it's quite simple: 'Mechs are getting more mobile. Not in the sense of increasing the speed of an engine, but rather the surrounding stats such as Pitch, yaw, turn rate, and most importantly accel/decel.

There are few main results we are aiming at with this pass: Making 'Mechs more enjoyable to pilot again, as they were in the past (before the mobility nerfs in 2015 & 2016), Increase the viablity and usability of underperforming Mechs, and finally increase TTK and average match time, as 'Mechs will be able to mitigate damage through faster torso twisting and peeking.

Once you've had a look at the proposal, we would love to hear your feedback about our work in this thread. [#timberwolfisback]

I do have a question about the spread sheet though, how was it determined Good mobility vs bad mobility? As well as who came up with the typical speeds? I ask because I have questions about some of those numbers across all chassis.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 03 May 2021 - 08:22 AM.

[LordBraxton]

I love the concept but dislike the choices made.

Some clan assaults are getting bigger buffs than IS assaults that are never used.

Zeus and Banshee are barely getting any buffs to agility compared to other chassis, so now they are going to be even worse in comparison.

Will the cauldron give these chassis armor quirks or something instead?

I feel like banshee\zeus need their its xl380 agility back.