230 replies to this topic

[dario03]

AytaL, on 03 May 2021 - 12:28 PM, said:

I commented this topic in wrong thread so i copy my feelings here.

I mainly had a look on the assault at the moment and I have noticed that there is an overall increase or buff to acceleration. However there is something i don't understand, the already agile mech received little to nothing increase while other slower mech received major increased.

How i see it it's a nerf to the already agile mech, because there is an overall increase accross the board except for these ones. For example Zeus and Cyclops received basically nothing while Mad cat II and Marauder IIC received a good one and i believe they are already pretty better mech and not underperforming at all, while Zeus is clearly is in my opinion. I don't remember the last time i saw a Zeus.

it's like you try to make everything similar to each other while they should be different, that's the purpose of having different mech.
In overall the changes are welcome especially for the really slow one as Atlas and kodiak it's just that i disagree to not buff the already agile mech and buff the already good performing mech.
Another thing i'm a bit worried is the torso speed increase which could hurt a lot the ligh playstyle.

thanks

Some mechs didn't receive much agility buffs, this is because they are either already good or will receive more quirks. I can understand not wanting the agility gap between agile and non-agile assaults to close. However since the base of agility was raised, if agile assaults like the Zeus was raised as much then it steps on the toes of heavies even more than it already does. If we raise heavy agility even more to compensate then the cycle keeps going until you get to lights and they would have to be boosted a lot to offset that.
Instead agility was raised more on the less agile mechs, and the more agile mechs should be getting quirk buffs if they need buffs.

[Darian DelFord]

Nightbird, on 03 May 2021 - 12:46 PM, said:

Unless it is +100% armor and structure quirks, the mobility listed for lights in this pass aren't enough to keep lights viable for most pilots.

You'd literally need to start at +50% for what is listed for locusts and move down from there.

I mean look at the Vulcan, a medium, is still more agile than most lights.

Glad someone else sees where I am going with this.

As I have stated before I take all this as a foundation...... the question is after, testing and implementation (notice the order there) will PGI / Cauldron be there to make the adjustments as needed.

Because right now, some of this ain't gonna be crap unless the re-re-scale actually happens... Looking at my dustball of a Jenner.

[Nightbird]

Darian DelFord, on 03 May 2021 - 01:37 PM, said:

Glad someone else sees where I am going with this.

As I have stated before I take all this as a foundation...... the question is after, testing and implementation (notice the order there) will PGI / Cauldron be there to make the adjustments as needed.

Because right now, some of this ain't gonna be crap unless the re-re-scale actually happens... Looking at my dustball of a Jenner.

Don't expect anything, lights as the most OP class deserves some net nerfs.

[Darian DelFord]

Nightbird, on 03 May 2021 - 01:43 PM, said:

Don't expect anything, lights as the most OP class deserves some net nerfs.

Like the last 8 years you mean?

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 03 May 2021 - 01:43 PM, said:

Don't expect anything, lights as the most OP class deserves some net nerfs.

How scornfully cynical of you.

[Nightbird]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 May 2021 - 01:49 PM, said:

How scornfully cynical of you.

Earning my pips.

[Wid1046]

Brauer, on 03 May 2021 - 11:39 AM, said:

So based on this you don't realize that this is a work in progress and that we are still awaiting the announcement of the quirk pass. It's really too early to pass judgement on whether X mech is being buffed and Y mech is being nerfed.

I'm not sure how you could have gotten that interpretation from what I said, but for clarity I am definitely aware the Cauldron will be making quirk changes. They however aren't giving any information out about the quirk patch, so we have to judge mechs based on the information that we have. If the Cauldron released a statement with this patch that stated something along the lines of "we know the following list of already under-performing mechs will be effectively further nerfed with this patch, but we will be making up for this in the upcoming quirk patch" then we could verify that they know particular mechs will need help and won't have to worry about it. It also doesn't help that they only announce what will be in the patch once it is locked in with PGI rather than allowing for community input, so we can only try to bring up potential problems for the quirk patch based on how the mechs are now and the changes that they have already announced.

To ensure my opinion on this part is clear, they are doing a much better job than PGI and the patches are overall net wins, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't bring up concerns or try to help make them make future patches better.

Brauer, on 03 May 2021 - 11:39 AM, said:

Anyway, both the Victor and Gargoyle are currently quite strong in some roles, so it's not like they're bad mechs.

I don't think any reasonable person would think that either the Victor or the Gargoyle are better than mechs like the Fafnir or MCII, yet the former two received nothing and the latter two received substantial buff (more than 29% boost to acceleration and deceleration etc.). Similarly, I don't think that they could be reasonably be described as being better than the Annihilator, MAD-IIC, Warhawk, King Crab, etc. and yet they all got buffed and mechs like the Gargoyle, Victor, and Zeus didn't.

If this is fixed with the quirk patch, that'll be great, but since we have no idea what is planned for that patch we should make sure that the Cauldron is aware of what the current patch will do to balance. Hopefully they'll provide some additional justification for their decisions and some indication on what they plan for the quirk patch (not necessarily how they'll quirk the mechs, but at least an acknowledgement of which mechs will most need help with the quirk patch).

Again, while this patch does buff good mechs while ignoring some mechs that perform worse, it still is overall a net positive. The general increases to agility will make many mechs more fun to play and I am certainly not saying that mechs like the Fafnir or Annihilator shouldn't have better acceleration.

[FupDup]

Wid1046, on 03 May 2021 - 03:37 PM, said:

They however aren't giving any information out about the quirk patch, so we have to judge mechs based on the information that we have.

They had an early document in the intel gathering thread for weapons...it was really bad. Meta Clan mechs all got armor while mechs like the Charger and Black Lanner were completely untouched. The Cat K2 and a Treb variant even got nerfed a little. A lot of IS mechs get small nerfs actually (they can justify the weapon quirk nerfs because of weapon changes but the armor nerfs are harder to justify). Lots of currently sub-par unused mechs got only small adjustments.

I'm hoping that the final quirk changes aren't a dumpster fire like the google doc they showcased months ago. I'll go dig it up and edit my post with the link to it.

EDIT: Here it is.

https://www.dropbox....dated.docx?dl=0

So there is definitely a lot of good in there, don't get me wrong, but there are also huge oversights like I mentioned above. It needs work.

Edited by FupDup, 03 May 2021 - 03:56 PM.

[D A T A]

Bowelhacker, on 03 May 2021 - 04:11 AM, said:

Speaking of negativity about lights, can we quirk the taller mechs so they can at least see down a bit more to shoot leghumpers?

pitch has been put to 25, further increases would delete vertical play.
that result can be achieved via rescale only, as right now you would need 35 pitch to get there (current is 15-20)

Edited by D A T A, 03 May 2021 - 03:57 PM.

[Wid1046]

FupDup, on 03 May 2021 - 03:41 PM, said:

They had an early document in the intel gathering thread for weapons...it was really bad. Meta Clan mechs all got armor while mechs like the Charger and Black Lanner were completely untouched. The Cat K2 and a Treb variant even got nerfed a little. A lot of IS mechs get small nerfs actually (they can justify the weapon quirk nerfs because of weapon changes but the armor nerfs are harder to justify).

I'm hoping that the final quirk changes aren't a dumpster fire like the google doc they showcased months ago. I'll go dig it up and edit my post with the link to it.

EDIT: Here it is.

https://www.dropbox....dated.docx?dl=0

So there is definitely a lot of good in there, don't get me wrong, but there are also huge oversights like I mentioned above.

Thanks, it's great to at least get a glimpse at what they're thinking even if it is pretty preliminary. No information on plans for the Gargoyle or Zeus in there unfortunately, but there is good information on some of the other mechs. Some weird choices in there though.

Edited by Wid1046, 03 May 2021 - 03:59 PM.

[D A T A]

Nightbird, on 03 May 2021 - 01:43 PM, said:

Don't expect anything, lights as the most OP class deserves some net nerfs.

1) some of them really are, look at how JGx won the WC in 2020, with a light squad ganking everthing basically, look how EMP won wc in 2019: with a flea and a commando capping, locking and backstabbing everything.
the problem is that people don't understand it because the "broken thing" is in the skill tree.
Usually some lights become broken when you put full survival tree on, as that survival tree is something like 3 times as powerful as the ones of heavies or assaults

2) lights are not getting nerfed (while instead some of them should, form my personal point of view), they are actually getting buffed: mechs that really need an agility boost (assaults) got very minimal additions, close to nothing (see annihilator and direwolf) while almost all lights got turbo-buffs (firestarter and similar ones)

3) completely useless lights are on the list for a heavy quirk pass focused on unique quirks, trying to give them a purpose and a role in this game that is not "backstab an assault that can't even move, turn or shoot back and then clap your own hands pretending to be good, while all you did was shoot at a pilot that could not see you nor shoot back, with the hitboxes 20 times larger, but barely x2 armor"

Edited by D A T A, 03 May 2021 - 04:34 PM.

[Jman5]

Hey, I'm largely out-of-the-loop for all these balance changes, but if the focus is on mobility, you guys should probably take a look at how Jump Jets work.

Currently the way it works a 40 ton medium mech actually has better jump mobility than a 35 ton light mech. This is particularly egregious because they both weigh 0.5 tons. I'm not exactly sure what the best solution here is, but at the very least if you're spending the same amount of weight on jumpjets than the ligher mech should always be jumping higher/faster.

[D A T A]

Jman5, on 03 May 2021 - 04:07 PM, said:

Hey, I'm largely out-of-the-loop for all these balance changes, but if the focus is on mobility, you guys should probably take a look at how Jump Jets work.

Currently the way it works a 40 ton medium mech actually has better jump mobility than a 35 ton light mech. This is particularly egregious because they both weigh 0.5 tons. I'm not exactly sure what the best solution here is, but at the very least if you're spending the same amount of weight on jumpjets than the ligher mech should always be jumping higher/faster.

this is being addressed

[cougurt]

Jman5, on 03 May 2021 - 04:07 PM, said:

Hey, I'm largely out-of-the-loop for all these balance changes, but if the focus is on mobility, you guys should probably take a look at how Jump Jets work.

Currently the way it works a 40 ton medium mech actually has better jump mobility than a 35 ton light mech. This is particularly egregious because they both weigh 0.5 tons. I'm not exactly sure what the best solution here is, but at the very least if you're spending the same amount of weight on jumpjets than the ligher mech should always be jumping higher/faster.

they are planning to address precisely that in this month's patch i believe.

[FupDup]

Jman5, on 03 May 2021 - 04:07 PM, said:

Hey, I'm largely out-of-the-loop for all these balance changes, but if the focus is on mobility, you guys should probably take a look at how Jump Jets work.

Currently the way it works a 40 ton medium mech actually has better jump mobility than a 35 ton light mech. This is particularly egregious because they both weigh 0.5 tons. I'm not exactly sure what the best solution here is, but at the very least if you're spending the same amount of weight on jumpjets than the ligher mech should always be jumping higher/faster.

I agree with the principle, but I think it should just be done per each JJ class instead of JJ tonnage because otherwise it would be pretty hard to balance it to feel fair for a 55-ton medium without making a 20-ton light launch into orbit.

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 03 May 2021 - 04:11 PM, said:

I agree with the principle, but I think it should just be done per each JJ class instead of JJ tonnage because otherwise it would be pretty hard to balance it to feel fair for a 55-ton medium without making a 20-ton light launch into orbit.

As long as Class 1 JJs aren't dog poo anymore I'll be stoked. If we are worried about poptarting assaults maybe just make them burn a long time but not thrust so fast so they are still forced to make themselves visible when poptarting but you can at least jump on top of stuff.

[Wid1046]

D A T A, on 03 May 2021 - 04:03 PM, said:

[redacted]

2) lights are not getting nerfed (while instead most of them should, form my personal point of view), they are actually getting buffed: mechs that really need an agility boost (assaults) got very minimal additions, close to nothing (see annihilator and direwolf) while almost all lights got turbo-buffs (firestarter and similar ones)

[redacted]

It would be wrong to compare the raw numbers rather than looking at percentages. To use your examples, the Dire Wolf for instance only had its accel increased by 2.5 kph/s, but that's still over a 29% increase and it will be easily felt. While that is less than the almost 39% increase that the Firestarter will be getting, that's understandable since the Firestarter is hot garbage. No other light mech is getting anywhere near the almost 40% increase that the Firestarter is getting. A few are getting around a 30% accel rate increase (similar to the Dire Wolf), but the rest are getting even less and some are getting nothing.

[justcallme A S H]

FupDup, on 03 May 2021 - 03:41 PM, said:

They had an early document in the intel gathering thread for weapons...it was really bad. Meta Clan mechs all got armor while mechs like the Charger and Black Lanner were completely untouched. The Cat K2 and a Treb variant even got nerfed a little. A lot of IS mechs get small nerfs actually (they can justify the weapon quirk nerfs because of weapon changes but the armor nerfs are harder to justify). Lots of currently sub-par unused mechs got only small adjustments.

I'm hoping that the final quirk changes aren't a dumpster fire like the google doc they showcased months ago. I'll go dig it up and edit my post with the link to it.

EDIT: Here it is.

https://www.dropbox....dated.docx?dl=0

So there is definitely a lot of good in there, don't get me wrong, but there are also huge oversights like I mentioned above. It needs work.

It was used as a very, very loooooose example. By no means was any of that finished, finalised or otherwise. More so an example as opposed to anything.

Lots has changed since Oct last year or whatever.

[D A T A]

Wid1046, on 03 May 2021 - 04:31 PM, said:

It would be wrong to compare the raw numbers rather than looking at percentages. To use your examples, the Dire Wolf for instance only had its accel increased by 2.5 kph/s, but that's still over a 29% increase and it will be easily felt. While that is less than the almost 39% increase that the Firestarter will be getting, that's understandable since the Firestarter is hot garbage. No other light mech is getting anywhere near the almost 40% increase that the Firestarter is getting. A few are getting around a 30% accel rate increase (similar to the Dire Wolf), but the rest are getting even less and some are getting nothing.

Exactly, because most of them are already COD agility level, while the dire can not even move, and will not move even post patch, because +30% of nothing, is still nothing

Edited by D A T A, 03 May 2021 - 04:38 PM.

[cougurt]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 May 2021 - 04:20 PM, said:

As long as Class 1 JJs aren't dog poo anymore I'll be stoked. If we are worried about poptarting assaults maybe just make them burn a long time but not thrust so fast so they are still forced to make themselves visible when poptarting but you can at least jump on top of stuff.

raising the heat generation of JJs on heavier mechs is something that might be worth exploring as well if it turns out to be a problem. as it stands, they're only a very minor contribution to your heat build up even on mechs that jump around a lot.