230 replies to this topic

[feeWAIVER]

Nightbird, on 04 May 2021 - 08:45 AM, said:

You argued extensively that lights should not be more agile than the Vulcan.

You asked why- so I tried to come up with reasons why.
I'm not emotionally invested in any weight class.

If you want me to agree that lights are the weakest weight class, I will, np.
You have to put in the most work with lights, with a greater margin for error.

[Brauer]

Nightbird, on 04 May 2021 - 08:32 AM, said:

Another one who proclaims lights are fine/OP

https://leaderboard....earch?u=D+A+T+A

A third:

https://leaderboard....h?u=Krasnopesky

Surely a data scientist of your caliber wouldn't overlook that Kras hardly plays QP and is a light/pseudolight main in comp?

[Nightbird]

Brauer, on 04 May 2021 - 09:19 AM, said:

Surely a data scientist of your caliber wouldn't overlook that Kras hardly plays QP and is a light/pseudolight main in comp?

Surely we're talking about balancing lights in QP, not in comp?

[Brauer]

Nightbird, on 04 May 2021 - 09:38 AM, said:

Surely we're talking about balancing lights in QP, not in comp?

You're claiming Kras only primarily plays assaults, that's bunk.

[Gas Guzzler]

Aside from sucking at this game in general lately, my biggest problem with lights has always been not being patient enough.

[Nightbird]

Brauer, on 04 May 2021 - 09:42 AM, said:

You're claiming Kras only primarily plays assaults, that's bunk.

My claim is that over the course of 10065 QP games, he played 49% in assaults, compared with 21% in lights. If I am wrong, prove it and I'll say I am wrong.

Edited by Nightbird, 04 May 2021 - 09:44 AM.

[John Bronco]

How games must one play in lights to have a valid opinion on lights?

[Nightbird]

John Bronco, on 04 May 2021 - 09:46 AM, said:

How games must one play in lights to have a valid opinion on lights?

Dario is a light pilot and in the same unit as Kras and DATA, if he says that lights don't need to be more agile for balance, I'll accept it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 04 May 2021 - 09:50 AM, said:

Dario is a light pilot and in the same unit as Kras and DATA, if he says that lights don't need to be more agile for balance, I'll accept it.

Does anyone think lights don't need to be more agile? I would say most do, some don't.

But at the same time, what happened here was a couple folks countered the idea that lights were trash, but just because they aren't trash doesn't mean they are actually "OP". False dichotomy, anyone?

[Nightbird]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 May 2021 - 09:52 AM, said:

Does anyone think lights don't need to be more agile? I would say most do, some don't.

But at the same time, what happened here was a couple folks countered the idea that lights were trash, but just because they aren't trash doesn't mean they are actually "OP". False dichotomy, anyone?

https://leaderboard....h?u=Gas+Guzzler

I'm just waiting for someone who actually runs lights to say lights are fine, so they are actually hurt by their statement. It is easy for an assault pilot to say lights are fine.

https://leaderboard....earch?u=dario03

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 04 May 2021 - 09:55 AM, said:

https://leaderboard....h?u=Gas+Guzzler

I'm just waiting for someone who actually runs lights to say lights are fine, so they are actually hurt by their statement. It is easy for an assault pilot to say lights are fine.

https://leaderboard....earch?u=dario03

Calm down. I didn't say anything aside from most lights should be more agile, I just commented on what happened in this thread. So chill.

Besides I'm sure you can run circles around all the seals in FP and not get hit once

[Brauer]

Nightbird, on 04 May 2021 - 09:55 AM, said:

https://leaderboard....h?u=Gas+Guzzler

I'm just waiting for someone who actually runs lights to say lights are fine, so they are actually hurt by their statement. It is easy for an assault pilot to say lights are fine.

https://leaderboard....earch?u=dario03

I haven't had a problem running lights so far, but I haven't done so as much since the patch. Piranha 3 still works great. I don't think it would make sense to give the PIR-3 specifically much more agility.

[Storming Angel]

justcallme A S H, on 04 May 2021 - 05:55 AM, said:

NTG has been given gains if you check the spreadsheet out.

Given the mech is basically a 75T Assault, ECM capable as well, it should be good.
It is also back to where it was in 2017 and no one said it was bad then, in fact it took nerfs to slow it down because it was that good

Wid1046, on 04 May 2021 - 05:58 AM, said:

The Night Gyr is being buffed. It's getting a 57.4% increase to its acceleration and will reach its top speed 1.55 seconds faster than it did before. Steve was just complaining that he didn't think it was enough of a buff.

Edit: Also, while I agree that going to 90° would have been better, the new minimum yaw angle for assaults is now going to be 85°, which is fine. This is a large improvement as some of the assaults like the Dire Wolf, Kodiak, and some of the Stalkers and Battlemasters had a yaw angle of 60°, freakin' 60.

I see, i didn't see that too be fair. Also only remember playing the night gyr after 2018 so never got to know the fact it was a much better mech before hand. Also nice too see those mechs getting to 85 degrees which is better than i would of thought too be fair. I cant tell with my battlemaster its quite slow to turn so twisting has to be done at least a second in advance from my limited experience (using 4 large lasers atm on the premium one, think its the hellsinger or something did have mrms in it but changed to pure laser volley.)

Also never knew it was ECM capable shows i have a lot to learn still. Too be fair my gripe with the night gyr is the sluggish turning speed for its torso rather than acceleration, but eh if it helps than im fine with it too be fair.

Edited by Storming Angel, 04 May 2021 - 10:00 AM.

[Nightbird]

Brauer, on 04 May 2021 - 09:58 AM, said:

I haven't had a problem running lights so far, but I haven't done so as much since the patch. Piranha 3 still works great. I don't think it would make sense to give the PIR-3 specifically much more agility.

Again no offense, but lights are your LEAST played class. Waiting for someone who plays lights the most, in QP and comp, and is good at it, to say that lights are good/fine/OP/not needing an agility buff compared with vulcans, and I'll be done. I picked Dario because he is in the same unit as Kras and DATA, but is clearly a light pilot. I'm sure they can convince him to drop in and agree with them and I'm done in this thread. Cool?

[Wid1046]

Storming Angel, on 04 May 2021 - 10:00 AM, said:

I see, i didn't see that too be fair. Also only remember playing the night gyr after 2018 so never got to know the fact it was a much better mech before hand. Also nice too see those mechs getting to 85 degrees which is better than i would of thought too be fair. I cant tell with my battlemaster its quite slow to turn so twisting has to be done at least a second in advance from my limited experience (using 4 large lasers atm on the premium one, think its the hellsinger or something did have mrms in it but changed to pure laser volley.)

Also never knew it was ECM capable shows i have a lot to learn still. Too be fair my gripe with the night gyr is the sluggish turning speed for its torso rather than acceleration, but eh if it helps than im fine with it too be fair.

Good news, its torso turn speed is also getting buffed from 63 degrees per second to 90 degrees per second. It's decel, leg turn speed, and pitch/yaw maximum angles are also all getting buffed. Heavy mechs are all going to have a maximum pitch angle of 25° after the patch, so it will actually go from having the worst pitch angle among all the heavy mechs to tying for the best.

[Darian DelFord]

Nightbird, on 04 May 2021 - 09:55 AM, said:

https://leaderboard....h?u=Gas+Guzzler

I'm just waiting for someone who actually runs lights to say lights are fine, so they are actually hurt by their statement. It is easy for an assault pilot to say lights are fine.

https://leaderboard....earch?u=dario03

Some lights are meh, some are meh meh, a couple are in a good place, a few others need help. I am a light pilot I just get fed up with the imbalance.

https://leaderboard....=Darian+DelFord

Edited by Darian DelFord, 04 May 2021 - 11:10 AM.

[Brauer]

Nightbird, on 04 May 2021 - 10:02 AM, said:

Again no offense, but lights are your LEAST played class. Waiting for someone who plays lights the most, in QP and comp, and is good at it, to say that lights are good/fine/OP/not needing an agility buff compared with vulcans, and I'll be done. I picked Dario because he is in the same unit as Kras and DATA, but is clearly a light pilot. I'm sure they can convince him to drop in and agree with them and I'm done in this thread. Cool?

Ok, so you don't care to hear what people who consistently play all classes think. Got it.

So far this month I've only played the PIR-3, albeit on an alt.

[dario03]

Nightbird, on 04 May 2021 - 09:50 AM, said:

Dario is a light pilot and in the same unit as Kras and DATA, if he says that lights don't need to be more agile for balance, I'll accept it.

Lights don't need to be more agile for balance.

We could just leave their agility alone and buff all the other mechs agility..... Would just have to give them all beyond Commando/Urbie level quirks, or make them less than half size. I mean technically it could be balanced like that

But I think it would make more sense to give them some agility and some quirks. Bigs getting higher turn and twist speed combined with higher velocity, shorter duration weapons should make it easier for them to kill lights. So I believe a combination of agility and survival buffs will be needed to offset it. Going pure agility would probably end up with some really really agile ultra lights, going pure survival would make all of them super tanky. Having some lean towards one way or the other is fine for diversity but I think it would be best if most were a bit of both.
Right now most of the lights are getting some agility, some only a bit, some a decent amount. And quirks haven't been finalized but as of right now a lot look to be getting survival. The exact amount they will get I can't say for sure since its hard to know exactly how much help they will need so we have to wait and see. And I believe wait and see is more so where Kras stands.

[Capt Deadpool]

Players will naturally gravitate towards more effective classes. If the agility and hitboxes of lights were perceived as being balanced against their firepower/armor relative to other classes, way more people would be playing them. Then of course there is taking average W/L per class into account as another metric to measure effectiveness.

In both cases, it should be apparent that mediums/heavies/assaults are meta and lights are not. i.e., lights are the least balanced class. And of course the weapon patch and forthcoming agility patch will further buff other classes relative to lights.

The Cauldron folks are certainly aware of these facts by and large, even if maybe one or two of them don't agree. I don't think anyone thinks it would be a bad thing if lights were more equitably balanced, so that they had comparable impacts on W/L to other classes and the class was more accessible/attractive to a larger percentage of the player base. This is just game design 101. Sure it will take a bit of time for players to adjust to a balance change in class meta, but they are adjusting just fine to the weapon meta changes that have just been applied and most seem to be having a great time with it.

I, personally, am content to wait and see what manner of defensive quirks The Cauldron has in store for lights. Significant armor buffs combined with agility buffs like Dario mentioned could very well make the class more accessible to more players and give the class a more equitable impact on the battlefield. I'd implore everyone to be patient. We are dealing with knowledgeable fellow players here, not PGI, and they can't fix everything at the same time.

@ Darian, what D A T A was somewhat implying regarding why many experienced light pilots take survival nodes, albeit a bit ungraciously, is that lights really should never be taking full broadsides. We take fractions of laser fire at a time, if at all, and try to avoid at all costs getting hit by PPFLD. Even in the legs, which you should try to use terrain to hide if you can. And so even small increases in armor from the skill tree are going to be extremely helpful in mitigating the laser fire that whittles away at us over time. i.e., 3 pts of armor in a light is very different than 3 points of armor in a heavy or an assault because we are not taking the same type of damage.

[Nightbird]

dario03, on 04 May 2021 - 11:27 AM, said:

We could just leave their agility alone and buff all the other mechs agility..... Would just have to give them all beyond Commando/Urbie level quirks, or make them less than half size. I mean technically it could be balanced like that

Cool, commando and urbie level quirks for lights confirmed?

dario03, on 04 May 2021 - 11:27 AM, said:

But I think it would make more sense to give them some agility and some quirks. Bigs getting higher turn and twist speed combined with higher velocity, shorter duration weapons should make it easier for them to kill lights. So I believe a combination of agility and survival buffs will be needed to offset it. Going pure agility would probably end up with some really really agile ultra lights, going pure survival would make all of them super tanky. Having some lean towards one way or the other is fine for diversity but I think it would be best if most were a bit of both.

There are no lights with a similar build to the Vulcan with the agility of the Vulcan in this document, so we're really only left with quirks.

Edited by Nightbird, 04 May 2021 - 11:52 AM.