54 replies to this topic

[Meep Meep]

Nightbird, on 07 May 2021 - 04:36 PM, said:

Hopefully there is a good reason like this is not an XML change or something, otherwise it'd be sheer laziness.

Changing around values in the xml tables might be technically easy but what you change them to matters. There has to be some measure of internal testing first and apparently some issues popped up when they changed the values so its getting a reduced rollout of 8 mechs.

[Nightbird]

Meep Meep, on 07 May 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

Changing around values in the xml tables might be technically easy but what you change them to matters. There has to be some measure of internal testing first and apparently some issues popped up when they changed the values so its getting a reduced rollout of 8 mechs.

If issues popped up implemented XML changes, for example some mech geometry not being able to twist or pitch without clipping, I understand perfectly.

[feeWAIVER]

Nightbird, on 07 May 2021 - 05:09 PM, said:

If issues popped up implemented XML changes, for example some mech geometry not being able to twist or pitch without clipping, I understand perfectly.

it's not laziness..
They are spreading it out, so they don't run out of "exciting new content" to patch too quickly.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Would it be wishful thinking to hope for engine re-sync? Nvm... I’m guessing that’s a pipe dream that requires engineers... anyway- hopefully the dev log comes soon, the anticipation is killing me!

[FupDup]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 07 May 2021 - 05:15 PM, said:

Would it be wishful thinking to hope for engine re-sync? Nvm... I’m guessing that’s a pipe dream that requires engineers... anyway- hopefully the dev log comes soon, the anticipation is killing me!

I don't want to see that happen because then we'd be right back at the point where mechs with low engine caps would suck balls and it would also nerf some high engine cap mechs too (i.e. the Gargoyle would be just as agile as a Timber Wolf because both have the same top speed).

The desync happened for good reason. The only issue is that PGI set some mechs too low, ironically because they based their formula off of stock engine size (thus invalidating the original purpose of helping low engine cap mechs).

Edited by FupDup, 07 May 2021 - 05:20 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

It is a bit of a blessing in diguise too guys. So again taking the positive out of it.

We've taken a LOT of the debate and feedback around lights onboard.

And then we've had a epic debate, possibly the largest/strongest/most passionate to date about anything proposaed. The values are thus getting another revision in varying areas for lights to put re-propose of sorts.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

FupDup, on 07 May 2021 - 05:19 PM, said:

I don't want to see that happen because then we'd be right back at the point where mechs with low engine caps would suck balls and it would also nerf some high engine cap mechs too (i.e. the Gargoyle would be just as agile as a Timber Wolf because both have the same top speed).

The desync happened for good reason. The only issue is that PGI set some mechs too low, ironically because they based their formula off of stock engine size (thus invalidating the original purpose of helping low engine cap mechs).

What are the mechs with low engine caps- that would suck balls? Reason I ask, is- during ye olden days... I could never afford a Direwolf— was the direwolf during that era bad? (It’s true I did not often see it- as it was usually atlas ddc, dragon slayer or heavy metals and battle masters on the battlefield...)

I still don’t have a Direwolf, but I do have an Anni (which is also 300 cap)... it’s my favorite mech... and I would hate for it to suck balls!

[Gas Guzzler]

justcallme A S H, on 07 May 2021 - 05:30 PM, said:

It is a bit of a blessing in diguise too guys. So again taking the positive out of it.

We've taken a LOT of the debate and feedback around lights onboard.

And then we've had a epic debate, possibly the largest/strongest/most passionate to date about anything proposaed. The values are thus getting another revision in varying areas for lights to put re-propose of sorts.

All it took was Nightbird posting jarl's list links showing that nobody actually uses lights

[Vxheous]

Nightbird, on 07 May 2021 - 05:09 PM, said:

If issues popped up implemented XML changes, for example some mech geometry not being able to twist or pitch without clipping, I understand perfectly.

It's more than just XML changes, I heard something about it being back end server stuff, or something hard baked into the game code with mobility that requires more than just XML to adjust. Devlog will hopefully explain everything.

Edited by Vxheous, 07 May 2021 - 05:36 PM.

[DANGEROUS]

justcallme A S H, on 07 May 2021 - 05:30 PM, said:

It is a bit of a blessing in diguise too guys. So again taking the positive out of it.

We've taken a LOT of the debate and feedback around lights onboard.

And then we've had a epic debate, possibly the largest/strongest/most passionate to date about anything proposaed. The values are thus getting another revision in varying areas for lights to put re-propose of sorts.

Community driven balancing. Things like this is what has made MWO so awesome these past couple months. Keep up the good work!

[justcallme A S H]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 May 2021 - 05:32 PM, said:

All it took was Nightbird posting jarl's list links showing that nobody actually uses lights

lol honestly, not really.

The debate had actually been raging the entire time (internally with Cauldron members) since the proposal went public. It just became more and more intense as our internal deadlines approached. Combine that with a few posts here on the forums and various discords and the ante was upped pretty significantly.

The big factor in the dark is a quirk pass, Cauldron doesn't even have a proposal ready but it is such a influencer when considering all manner of things. Don't want any over the top OP mechs or anything.

[Gas Guzzler]

justcallme A S H, on 07 May 2021 - 05:40 PM, said:

lol honestly, not really.

The debate had actually been raging the entire time (internally with Cauldron members) since the proposal went public. It just became more and more intense as our internal deadlines approached. Combine that with a few posts here on the forums and various discords and the ante was upped pretty significantly.

The big factor in the dark is a quirk pass, Cauldron doesn't even have a proposal ready but it is such a influencer when considering all manner of things. Don't want any over the top OP mechs or anything.

Either way, I've upped my light usage to show that I'm an ally.

[Meep Meep]

feeWAIVER, on 07 May 2021 - 05:13 PM, said:

it's not laziness..
They are spreading it out, so they don't run out of "exciting new content" to patch too quickly.

I'm sure there is some measure of this so its easier to roll it out with manageable in house testing. The more changes a patch takes on the more testing has to be done and more chances for something negative to slip through.

[CFC Conky]

justcallme A S H, on 07 May 2021 - 05:30 PM, said:

It is a bit of a blessing in diguise too guys. So again taking the positive out of it.

We've taken a LOT of the debate and feedback around lights onboard.

And then we've had a epic debate, possibly the largest/strongest/most passionate to date about anything proposaed. The values are thus getting another revision in varying areas for lights to put re-propose of sorts.

We've all seen what happens when global changes are made to this game.

So much aggro...

Incremental change is fine, a lot of moving parts in MWO.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[FupDup]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 07 May 2021 - 05:32 PM, said:

What are the mechs with low engine caps- that would suck balls? Reason I ask, is- during ye olden days... I could never afford a Direwolf— was the direwolf during that era bad? (It’s true I did not often see it- as it was usually atlas ddc, dragon slayer or heavy metals and battle masters on the battlefield...)

I still don’t have a Direwolf, but I do have an Anni (which is also 300 cap)... it’s my favorite mech... and I would hate for it to suck balls!

I'm mostly referring to mechs like the Cataphract 4X, all the slow lights (especially the Cougar), the slow Rifleman IIC variants, and the BJ/VND variants with 235 cap (they'd still be usable but they'd be a bit weaker).

The Daishi was actually very stronk back in its heyday because of all the firepower it can carry. It was pushed out of the meta by general Clan nerfs and stronger mechs replacing it. Desync wasn't a big deal for it because it never had good agility in the first place.

The Anni would likely remain strong regardless because it has strong quirks, good hardpoints, and mobility already so low that there's no way that an engine re-sync could harm it.

So basically, slow assaults would not have to fear a re-sync because they have other traits to make up for it and they never depended on mobility in the first place. Mechs from weight classes that are more dependent on mobility, on the other hand, might not fare so well (especially the Cougar, which would be nerfed to the same agility as a heavy mech by an engine-resync).

Edited by FupDup, 07 May 2021 - 06:03 PM.

[Nightbird]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 May 2021 - 05:32 PM, said:

All it took was Nightbird posting jarl's list links showing that nobody actually uses lights

Not at all, I was just trying to get some people who uses lights in the Cauldron to voice their opinions.

[Meep Meep]

FupDup, on 07 May 2021 - 05:53 PM, said:

all the slow lights (especially the Cougar)

81kph isn't slow by any measure. It's more than enough to keep up with the group which is the role of the heavy weapons clan lights which are closer to mediums in firepower. The 'true' clan lights like the pir can all zip around with the best of them.

[FupDup]

Meep Meep, on 07 May 2021 - 06:03 PM, said:

81kph isn't slow by any measure. It's more than enough to keep up with the group which is the role of the heavy weapons clan lights which are closer to mediums in firepower. The 'true' clan lights like the pir can all zip around with the best of them.

Fast or slow is relative to the armor and firepower carried by your mech. 81 KPH is blazing fast turbospeed for an assault mech, while perfectly average for a medium mech. The Cougar in particular has horribad geometry and barely any quirks to speak of, which combined with its speed means that it can't escape from danger and also generally can't confront the danger either. It gets easily outgunned by mechs that can outrun it (and out-tank it).

You also missed the context about that other guy asking for engine size to dictate agility like it used to. In such a setting, any two mechs with the same running speed would always have the same turn, twist, accel, and decel speeds. So in this case, any mech moving at 81 kph would have the same mobility stats, i.e. Cougar = Nova = Timber Wolf = Gargoyle etc. I do not believe that a 35-ton light should have the same agility as a 75-ton heavy mech under even the most extreme circumstances.

Edited by FupDup, 07 May 2021 - 06:10 PM.

[Meep Meep]

FupDup, on 07 May 2021 - 06:08 PM, said:

The Cougar in particular has horribad geometry and barely any quirks to speak of

I do not believe that a 35-ton light should have the same agility as a 75-ton heavy mech under even the most extreme circumstances.

It's geometry is poor for facetime fights but it has excellent shoulder hardpoints for two heavy weapons of your choice and enough space and extra tonnage to use them effectively so quirks are not really needed after skills. Almost every map has areas where you can poke out over the top of cover to fire and you only have to expose a sliver to get shots on target.

As to mobility I'm not saying it can't be improved just saying that currently it's fine as long as you play with the group. Get caught out alone and yeah its easy meat but thats true for most clan mechs regardless of class due to generally poor hitboxes and armor.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

FupDup, on 07 May 2021 - 05:53 PM, said:

I'm mostly referring to mechs like the Cataphract 4X, all the slow lights (especially the Cougar), the slow Rifleman IIC variants, and the BJ/VND variants with 235 cap (they'd still be usable but they'd be a bit weaker).

The Daishi was actually very stronk back in its heyday because of all the firepower it can carry. It was pushed out of the meta by general Clan nerfs and stronger mechs replacing it. Desync wasn't a big deal for it because it never had good agility in the first place.

The Anni would likely remain strong regardless because it has strong quirks, good hardpoints, and mobility already so low that there's no way that an engine re-sync could harm it.

So basically, slow assaults would not have to fear a re-sync because they have other traits to make up for it and they never depended on mobility in the first place. Mechs from weight classes that are more dependent on mobility, on the other hand, might not fare so well (especially the Cougar, which would be nerfed to the same agility as a heavy mech by an engine-resync).

Thanks for the reply- my knowledge about light mechs is extremely limited in scope. Now it makes a more sense.

But- if MWO had access to more dev engineers as well as higher production budget, hypothetically speaking, would it be possible to re-sync engines and for light mechs with low engine cap... maybe use quirks to boost agility to acceptable levels?