34 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Getting spawn killed is bad, no two ways about it, but when you create spawn defenses, people will choose to fight there to begin with and of course when they die and re-spawn, they get spawn camped. Ideally we need a mechanic that offers safety for spawns but tactical demerits for staying there. Something could work would be something like drop pods where you click on your side of the Battle Map (which shows spotted enemies) where you want to drop and then you land there with no dropship cover fire at all. If you need to use dropships then just have them do a flyby and drop the mechs from high altitude with one use JJs.

[justcallme A S H]

And people pretend that players/teams don't hide in the spawns (or behind it), which basically makes Spawn Camping a thing...

[James Hawker]

I can see both sides of this argument, and I actually like the drop pod idea. It's an actual thing, canonically, as are hot-drops via jump jets from dropships. Nova Cat was notorious for doing it during the Invasion. That said, I doubt we'll get anything like that implemented this year... But, if I could add my own two cents into the conversation?

There is something to be said for the lack of voracity to dropship weapons. I'm aware that the previous problem to this made hiding in spawn a more viable option than fighting in "open" ground, but there's no reason for an enemy team to be pushing the deployment zone when there's an objective there for the win. I saw this a lot with my previous Unit, they'd call for kills, not for an objective win. I think this is a holdover from when faction battles were determined by total damage done by the faction, not total wins by the faction. Incentivize playing the objective, and punish players for trying to push the spawn to camp kills. Another person posting on this same topic had suggested, rather than dropships doing the damage, static turrets that can't be destroyed (Similar to the Fountain of League of Legends, I suppose).

In theory, this means that you can only be attacked if you're *inside* the spawn segment of the enemy deployment. Ideally, the team has time to group up and make a coordinated attack, rather than being picked off in small groups as the dropships fly back and forth, while also meaning people can't simply ditch a mech to bring in overwhelming firepower, since it exists already. And since that firepower can't shoot outside of the "bunker" of the spawn point, there's no pot-shots being taken at enemy mechs in the objective zone like on Assault maps. A solution like this doesn't require any new mechanics (As much as I would love a Section 8 spawn system in MWO) and requires minimal retrofitting, while... Well, hopefully, solving the problem of dropships being a moving turret able to shoot outside of spawn.

[Nightbird]

James Hawker, on 09 May 2021 - 01:59 PM, said:

Another person posting on this same topic had suggested, rather than dropships doing the damage, static turrets that can't be destroyed (Similar to the Fountain of League of Legends, I suppose).

In theory, this means that you can only be attacked if you're *inside* the spawn segment of the enemy deployment. Ideally, the team has time to group up and make a coordinated attack, rather than being picked off in small groups as the dropships fly back and forth, while also meaning people can't simply ditch a mech to bring in overwhelming firepower, since it exists already. And since that firepower can't shoot outside of the "bunker" of the spawn point, there's no pot-shots being taken at enemy mechs in the objective zone like on Assault maps. A solution like this doesn't require any new mechanics (As much as I would love a Section 8 spawn system in MWO) and requires minimal retrofitting, while... Well, hopefully, solving the problem of dropships being a moving turret able to shoot outside of spawn.

And how would you solve teams that never leave their "bunker"?

[Leone]

With Drop pods! I can see it now... Do a line backer rush into the enemy base, where they hide in their spawn thinking their safe, whilst we target and tear apart their best pilots, the... wait, invulnerable turrets? Yeah, no. Those guys're already priority one, no need to beef 'em up. Then you just get a repeat of the above video.

The thing with the drop pods is, unless you spilt the map, so you can only drop in certain areas, like say opposite sides of the map, I could totally see my unit hot dropping right onto and just behind enemy lines, making it a glorious brawl fest, the kind other pilots often complain about.

~Leone.

[Surefoot]

One way "gates" to get out of the spawn area maybe ?

[Nightbird]

Surefoot, on 09 May 2021 - 06:56 PM, said:

One way "gates" to get out of the spawn area maybe ?

And what do you do with teams that refuse to leave in order to waste 25 or 30 minutes of your time?

How do you prevent the gates from being camped?

[tee5]

So it is one team of very experienced CW-Players vs one team of unexperienced players.


So you go out of your dropzone and you will, very soon, be encircled by enemies, shot by multiple angels, shot in the back, shot from everywhere. Because your team is too weak to hold against those very experienced players.

Why not use the terrain to your advantage?
Even if you stay in the dropzone you will be shot by multiple angles.
But at least you have a little bit of cover.

So even with using the dropzone as cover they lost horribly 48:16.
If they would have gotten out of the dropzone they would have lost 48:06.


Looks like the common consent in this thread is: "uh it was so hard to slaughter those helpless seals,
Next time we want them handcuffed and tranquilized so that it will be even easier for us to kill them."

You won 48:16 and you are complaining come on.

[tee5]

We live in a time, where PGI is not capabale of changing 3 digit numbers.

eg. resource limit for conquest in CW or Dropship Tonnage limit for Clans and IS.



And you guys are fantasizing about DropPods where you can choose your own landing location.
PGI would need 24 months to program that.

[Nightbird]

No one is fantasizing about FP updates, just explaining to the people complaining about spawn camping how we got to where we are today. PGI went the effort to build these eye-sore walls on all the maps, and all we got was people who stayed behind them to utilize these advantages, die, get spawn killed, and then complain about it.

[LordNothing]

let me tell you how much i hate the damn walls. they didnt solve the problem, they made it much much worse. whats worse is the kind of players they were meant to protect are also the kind of players who get lost in the wall maze and then take forever to get into position. taking forever to set up is one of the reasons some teams do so bad.

another reason is the scoring. teams should be scored as teams rather than individuals. a lot of players do this thing where, when the game appears to be lost, revert to personal glory to try and salvage the situation instead of working together. often throwing their own team mates under the bus in the process. if they are scored as a team then you take away the incentive to do your own thing and encourage teamwork.

i dont think any mechanic can fix the skill disparity shown in the video. the walls don't help and should go, the isolated drop zones on the siege maps as well. the drop pod idea would help, but only sparingly. if you go up against one of the top teams in the game you are going to lose. bad match making due to low population is the problem you need to solve. a good solid event with rewards would bring in enough players so that the match maker can actually work.

[Leone]

Okay, so first off, the video starts with a battlemaster at the opfor's spawn. With zero kills on either side. And no damage on the shown mech.

I'm sure the OP just cut all that boring walking because it's even more boring to watch the second time. And this happened because the opposing forces never left. We're not complaining about the winning. That's immaterial. It's that they'd dropped to fight mechs and the other team didn't want to fight. Sure, they spent 25 minutes in game and won. Wohoo. If that's all I cared about I'd head back to MW5. I came back to MWO for the fights. Camping in your spawn and forcing us to go in and dig them out, which we will, because I at least queued up to fight, does no one any favours.

And yet, people still do it, and keep complaining that they lost, and it must be because the spawns 'aren't safe enough'.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 09 May 2021 - 08:29 PM.

[Nightbird]

Leone, on 09 May 2021 - 08:28 PM, said:

I came back to MWO for the fights. Camping in your spawn and forcing us to go in and dig them out, which we will, because I at least queued up to fight, does no one any favours.

Exactly, if you just watch the end, people complained that it was a terrible match (from the winner's side). It's utterly boring, and a waste of time, and we understand it is even worse for the other side. It would be better to have an early win condition to end the match, but we don't expect anything in this neglected mode.

[tee5]

The real problem:


In the past we had thousand of players who played CW.
We had multiple good units, who could play vs eachother or if they had a spot you where invited to.

So you played a match and lost horribly vs a very very good enemie team.
If you kept on playing it was very likely that you did NOT play vs that same team again.


But years and years of CW, made so many people quit, and condensed everything down to the current state,
so that you have only 2-4 groups playing at the same time.
So if you lost vs these very good unit, it is very likely you will play vs them again, and lose again.

And then you have good groups/units who lost a couple of matches vs those other good groups/units, and then say, we will avoid them and will only start searching for a match, when they are dropped.

And then PUGS need to play vs these good groups/units.

And these pugs lose the interest even faster and will stop playing.



It boils down to, the population for CW is to low. It would make more fun if we would have thousands of players.

[-Mean Machine Angel-]

Also when some teams see murder kill groups and know they are going to lose,they go screw it,make them walk.And sometimes its just that simple.As for murder kill group players complaining about no competition and boring games...well duh.Super murder death group.Cracks me up.

Edited by Priests and Cannibals, 09 May 2021 - 09:14 PM.

[James Hawker]

Nightbird, on 09 May 2021 - 02:36 PM, said:

And how would you solve teams that never leave their "bunker"?

I literally said this. There's an objective. If the team doesn't want to leave their bunker, then they lose because the objective is taken. It's the same thing that happens in League and games with the same mechanic, if you do not leave that protective zone, you can not fight to defend your base. In this case, be it a planetary cannon, a conquest point, an assault point, or anything else. The only, and I mean ONLY game mode this does not work for is Skirmish, but I have never played a Skirmish FP match, so I don't even know if it's enabled as a game mode.

[Surefoot]

Nightbird, on 09 May 2021 - 07:01 PM, said:

And what do you do with teams that refuse to leave in order to waste 25 or 30 minutes of your time?

How do you prevent the gates from being camped?

I'm just throwing idea options here, lets not be so negative...
For the first, a timer while in spawn area that works like the "out of bounds" system would solve that issue. Get out or just lose the game under 1 minute. Would also save people like me the effort of legging afk team mates.

For the second if you mean opfor sniping the gates there's nothing to do really as long as there's a spawn in-map at a fixed location. Drop pods at multiple locations would solve that but it would require coding and that seems off limits for PGI. Would not entirely fix stupid boring stomps like the one your posted though...

[Tarteso]

justcallme A S H, on 09 May 2021 - 12:41 PM, said:

And people pretend that players/teams don't hide in the spawns (or behind it), which basically makes Spawn Camping a thing...

That only happens when a significant portion of the enemy team is lurking at the spawn already, which they do intentionally. So, it isn´t a kind of defense tactic as you suggest

[Ignatius Audene]

And how the hell should pgi ever manage drop pods if they fail to implement an easy chose spawn? (Without fumbling with command and lance switching).

If they ever want to invest coding time into cw an option to choose one of the 3 spawn points is prob the best we can hope for.

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 10 May 2021 - 09:50 AM.

[pbiggz]

Ignatius Audene, on 10 May 2021 - 09:48 AM, said:

And how the hell should pgi ever manage drop pods if they fail to implement an easy chose spawn? (Without fumbling with command and lance switching).

If they ever want to invest coding time into cw an option to choose one of the 3 spawn points is prob the best we can hope for.

As long as the 3 drop points are sufficiently spaced out that an enemy team couldn't instantly pivot towards any other i don't see why that wouldn't work