24 replies to this topic

[HammerMaster]

https://www.vice.com...zarre-discovery

[Leone]

Naw, that just came from some light doing a least time to brawl calculation, correcting for survivability and acting on the results.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 09 May 2021 - 03:51 PM.

[LordNothing]

most players have a right hand dominance. so in lieu of actual planning, when faced with a choice of left or right (which happens when there is a big centralized obstacle in the way), players will more often choose right.

Edited by LordNothing, 09 May 2021 - 04:31 PM.

[FupDup]

LordNothing, on 09 May 2021 - 04:30 PM, said:

most players have a right hand dominance. so in lieu of actual planning, when faced with a choice of left or right (which happens when there is a big centralized obstacle in the way), players will more often choose right.

Going waaaaay back, there were also some mechs like the HGN-733C and VTR-DS that had asymmetrical hardpoints allowing for PPC + AC builds to be played entirely on the right side of the body with the left side used as a weaponless shield.

As for maps, I think Caustic was the one that contributed to Nascar's rise the most because it's literally designed as a circular ring.

[Darian DelFord]

FupDup, on 09 May 2021 - 04:34 PM, said:

Going waaaaay back, there were also some mechs like the HGN-733C and VTR-DS that had asymmetrical hardpoints allowing for PPC + AC builds to be played entirely on the right side of the body with the left side used as a weaponless shield.

As for maps, I think Caustic was the one that contributed to Nascar's rise the most because it's literally designed as a circular ring.

This..... back the then there were no double heat sinks, and almost all laser builds, so the rotation began, and every map design was just like this.

The other two maps out at the time were Forest Colony and Frozen City both the classics now.... Nascar was not easy. We also had predator vision back then..... Damn I miss predator vision.

[R5D4]

FupDup, on 09 May 2021 - 04:34 PM, said:

As for maps, I think Caustic was the one that contributed to Nascar's rise the most because it's literally designed as a circular ring.

Bad map design continues to be the main contributing influence to this phenomena in my opinion.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Nascar is an attempt to flank the enemy because attacking head on is suicide. They will mow you down in 2 seconds. So, it became necessary to try and shoot an enemy from the side or back so you get a shot in when they are not looking at you. I think these things created Nascaring:
1. High alphas brought on by, first, clan weapons, and then, the civil war weapons and heavies and assaults with the perfect combinations of hardpoints to create high alphas, such as the Blood Asp and the Mad Cat Mk II. This game used to include a ton of peaking and poking but when you try to peak now, you're far more likely to get your torso blown off in one salvo, and from a long range.
2. Larger maps. On the small classic maps, like forest colony, you can't Nascar because the map is too small and there's not any good cover for it. There's a little nascaring on classic frozen city but not always. Yeah they all have a central feature to rotate around too which just amplifies the problem, but we didn't nascar that heavily on the old Caustic and the new Caustic is the same layout with taller rocks.
3. 12 v 12. Amplies how many weapons can shoot at you at once.
The Cauldron seems to think the May mobility changes will help reduce nascaring. They might, if it brings back poking and peaking and poptarting. Now that PGI has a map designer, hopefully all the maps can be redesigned finally.

[Anjian]

FupDup, on 09 May 2021 - 04:34 PM, said:

Going waaaaay back, there were also some mechs like the HGN-733C and VTR-DS that had asymmetrical hardpoints allowing for PPC + AC builds to be played entirely on the right side of the body with the left side used as a weaponless shield.

As for maps, I think Caustic was the one that contributed to Nascar's rise the most because it's literally designed as a circular ring.

Caustic used to be trench warfare; whoever gets to the top first gets to dig in and secure a strong fortress position.

I would point to several factors, such as the map Canyon, but most importantly the increasing speed of mechs in general, and the shift of balance of power to some light mechs. When assaults were strongly dominant, everyone stayed behind or at the side of the assaults, such as in the hope of using the DDC's ECM bubble.

In the old River City, the original spawn positions where one team spawns in the space port and the other thing spawns in the ship docks, that one rarely leads to a nascar, with battles heavily concentrated at the north rather than around the cathedral.

The old Frozen City was another trench warfare map.

The old days of trench warfare were more fun. We probed, we peeked, and we pooked until one side is too weak to hold back a final finishing assault. Games lasted longer, and it felt more like there is a war going on, even when there was only 8 vs. 8.

How can the directors and developers mess up a good thing?

[Zordicron]

People are forgetting the 8v8 instead of 12v12 scenario also. Trades from entrenched positions were different. Mobility of the team was different, really. No clan heavy mechs running at IS medium speeds.

I distinctly remember when clans dropped it was a highly popular method to GO GO GO with the significantly faster (for their size) TBR's and Storm Crows etc. and hope you caught an enemy assault being left behind by the enemy team that was trying to do the same thing to your team. I think between clans and 12v12, NASCAR became fully established.

[Vamboozle]

LordNothing, on 09 May 2021 - 04:30 PM, said:

most players have a right hand dominance. so in lieu of actual planning, when faced with a choice of left or right (which happens when there is a big centralized obstacle in the way), players will more often choose right.

As a southpaw I can confirm that the right spin feels unnatural and I have a tendency to want to go the other way - a habit I’ve trained myself out of due to extreme death….

Interestingly if I have a choice I tend to left bias my load out, twist to the left and circle an opponent to the left - no idea if this makes any material difference….

[Brizna]

But remember boys and girls, you only nascar because you want. You can stop doing it any time, you just have to use your wits about it, nope sitting just where you are waiting for the enemy nascar to catch up with you is not smart, know where they will pass, position yourself in a hard to reach position from where they will be in a couple minutes and poke them in the back when they have passed. Nascar is executed because it works many times, but it is very easy to predict and play against at the same time. T H I N K.

[x Deathstrike x]

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

x Deathstrike x, on 10 May 2021 - 02:04 AM, said:

pure genius, laughing my a$s off ;D

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 10 May 2021 - 02:39 AM.

[kapusta11]

The nerf of Gauss PPC loadouts (linked heat penalty) is what caused nascar. Also Piranha mech, bad spawns and Domination game mode to some extent. Changing maps won't solve anything. People will keep rotating, be it small rock in the middle of canyon network or a big caldera on Caustic because there's nothing to punish them. Nascar wouldn't be a thing if sniping was viable. You'd just get shot in the back if you kept rotating.

You can still snipe, but when a light mech comes after you, unless you're in the top 10%, you're screwed. If two come after you, unless you're in the top 0.5%, you're screwed. Fully skilled Piranha can survive dual gauss to the CT. Skilled Wolfhound can survive a 50 damage shot to the ST. You get at most 5 attempts to kill a light mech and you need to hit it twice in the same spot. They might get scared after the first hit, but people in solo queue are blood thirsty af. To 90% of the people sniping is a dead playstyle.

[Anjian]

kapusta11, on 10 May 2021 - 05:21 AM, said:

The nerf of Gauss PPC loadouts (linked heat penalty) is what caused nascar. Also Piranha mech, bad spawns and Domination game mode to some extent. Changing maps won't solve anything. People will keep rotating, be it small rock in the middle of canyon network or a big caldera on Caustic because there's nothing to punish them. Nascar wouldn't be a thing if sniping was viable. You'd just get shot in the back if you kept rotating.

You can still snipe, but when a light mech comes after you, unless you're in the top 10%, you're screwed. If two come after you, unless you're in the top 0.5%, you're screwed. Fully skilled Piranha can survive dual gauss to the CT. Skilled Wolfhound can survive a 50 damage shot to the ST. You get at most 5 attempts to kill a light mech and you need to hit it twice in the same spot. They might get scared after the first hit, but people in solo queue are blood thirsty af. To 90% of the people sniping is a dead playstyle.

Once you start and reinforce a bad habit, it is extremely difficult to kill off.

[PocketYoda]

x Deathstrike x, on 10 May 2021 - 02:04 AM, said:

That was epic thanks. Twice as funny because my name was Samial lol

Edited by MechaGnome, 10 May 2021 - 08:06 PM.

[x Deathstrike x]

NASCAR has evolved over time.
Back in 2015 I remember the worst NASCAR maps of today (old) Caustic Valley was a stand off/poke game at the D5/E5 area most of the time. Sometimes it went into NASCAR as well but it wasnt every game.
Same for old Frozen City. There were various scenarios how it was played.
However today old Frozen City is also a NASCAR map to my surprise when I returned after a 2 year hiatus.

I would say NASCAR is a group dynamic that reinforeces itself.
People do what they are most used to and thus more people do the same.
In the end it's bad map design.
If you had a long trench like map with lots of hideouts along the way there would be no NASCAR.

Edited by x Deathstrike x, 10 May 2021 - 06:15 AM.

[Anjian]

x Deathstrike x, on 10 May 2021 - 06:15 AM, said:

NASCAR has evolved over time.
Back in 2015 I remember the worst NASCAR maps of today (old) Caustic Valley was a stand off/poke game at the D5/E5 area most of the time. Sometimes it went into NASCAR as well but it wasnt every game.
Same for old Frozen City. There were various scenarios how it was played.
However today old Frozen City is also a NASCAR map to my surprise when I returned after a 2 year hiatus.

I would say NASCAR is a group dynamic that reinforeces itself.
People do what they are most used to and thus more people do the same.
In the end it's bad map design.
If you had a long trench like map with lots of hideouts along the way there would be no NASCAR.

Exactly. Its evolved from bad maps to a social group dynamic. Its way past a meta.

The long trench like maps with hideouts are already in FW. I wonder what will happen if these maps are forced to be played with QP instead, in order to break this group dynamic.

[R Valentine]

Poorly placed spawn points and bad player habits. The majority of MWO players have no desire to improve. They do what they know come hell or high water. When you do successfully stop the nascar, most opposing teams fold almost immediately, because they have no idea what to do next. I don't know why PGI has to split up the spawns, which only encourages nascar like behavior in rushing the spawn directly to your right. It doesn't stop people from death balling. Virtually all QP teams run towards one another at the very start of the match, or follow the person directly in front of them. Splitting up the spawns just ensures one lance doesn't have a chance to participate when the game plays out in the expected manner. But 90% of nascar is just bad habit, and you can't fix people. You never see anything even remotely close to nascar in comp matches, even at the lowest levels.

[Homer The Thief]

Kiran Yagami, on 10 May 2021 - 06:48 AM, said:

You never see anything even remotely close to nascar in comp matches, even at the lowest levels.

Is the skillgap less in comp, even at the lowest levels?
Compared to soupque?
I think that may have something to do with nascar bean popular.

@OP
we can learn a lot from nature.

Edited by Homer The Thief, 10 May 2021 - 10:20 AM.