78 replies to this topic

[Shoot someone else]

The tonnage imbalance IS a big issue. Just got out of a game where we had 2 assaults, the other team 5. We managed one kill. Had a game recently where we had one, they had 5. There wasn't even a team on the other side that was loaded with assaults.

For those who say "Ah, it doesn't matter if the other side has twice the assaults" are either fools or you were on the over tonned team.

It's frustrating when it happens over and over and over.

[justcallme A S H]

Again what was the actual tonnage difference? If it's 150T, it's nothing. It's existed for 6 years++.

I bet if you posted the screen tonnage would not be the biggest issue. It is usually skill disparity as that is, and always will be, the greater problem. It is a problem that is not immediately evident however.

[Stonefalcon]

I was the lone assault on my team once, the enemy assaults all died.

If you take a crap build prepare to be bullied by the mechlab.

[Tarl Cabot]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 May 2021 - 03:25 PM, said:

I don't think the matchmaker takes that into account, if that's what you are asking. But coming on here and posting a loss screen shot and then trying to say that the assault imbalance is a huge problem when it clearly wasn't in this case is pointless.

And, to remove tonnage complaints, which is actually Weight class non-match up issue, PGI should move the MM from Group setup to Solo setup, with 1st step by allowing only 1 mech/class for those 2-4 man groups, and changing 3-man to match 4-man by not allowing another 2-man to join them. If that group is made up of low performing players, I would rather give the other side some armor to chew through instead a of poorly played lights/mediums. And it would at least remove the tonnage issue which is really Weight Class discrepancy threads, that negative perception for the general population, hai?

I would go with doing the 1 mech/weight class for those groups and 3-4man change to collect data. The current setup allows the following, for both excellent and low performing groups.

https://mwomercs.com...es-4-week-test/

• 2-player groups: Min Tonnage 40, Max Tonnage 200 -- 2 Assaults(max 100t) or 2 lights
  
• 3-player groups: Min Tonnage 80, Max Tonnage 255 -- 3 Assaults(85*3) or 3 lights
  
• 4-player groups: Min Tonnage 120, Max Tonnage 280 -- 3 Assaults(3*80)+Med (40t max) / 3*85t+25t light or 4 lights

And for the few who might pop in to disagree, advising they could provide an extreme example, Solo MM was setup with matching weight class, but the issue back then MM still used only PSR when it was simply an experience bar where even players with avg 171 MS could reach Tier 1 simply by playing a ton of more games, ie 25K. It was near impossible to drop down in Tiers. It also means many player who are currently in Tier 3-5 had been in Tier 1 and 2, simply due to playing enough games to reach those tiers with the original PSR setup.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 17 May 2021 - 05:57 PM.

[STORM BANDIT]

As the Potato piloting the Viper, I have no real recollection of the drop, I was dropping solo and It's a tier 4/5 drop on HPG, your team pushes the top successfully and holds it 7 out of 10 times you win in a stomp. What I can say, is there are a couple of names I recognize on the opfor (Been killed by or killed them more than once) who just had bad drops and were more than capable of changing the complexion of that drop, sometimes It happens. You just move on a drop again.

As far as groups go, I often play grouped with higher tier friends, I win more on average dropping solo than I do in the group, I tend to drag the group performance down as a whole as you drop up (here is looking at you tier 1 streamers) more often than down, sometimes you get carried, sometimes you have to earn it. Dropping up definitely sharpens your skills if not your PSR

Just my 2 cents

[Davegt27]

so can we all agree we don't have a problem with this game ?? (since the OP suggested there was a problem)



or are we still working on something

[Khobai]

thats what happens without a proper matchmaker

the game should have a dynamic battle value system for rating mechs. for example every mech should have a base battle value equal to its tonnage +/- 10 depending on how good or bad the mech is for its tonnage (determined by player usage stats). maybe apply some kindve exponential curve as well since there is a tonnage sweet spot for mechs.

and the matchmaker should take that battle value into account as well as skill level (actual ELO skill rating not this silly tier system) when assigning players to teams

thats how other games like war thunder do it. but we still dont have a proper matchmaker...



plus then the whole problem with lights and mediums being inferior to heavies and assaults or the large disparities within weight classes wouldnt be a problem anymore because the battle value difference would account for that. taking a light mech or a worse assault would mean your team would be compensated with extra battle value to offset the inferior mech youre piloting.

Edited by Khobai, 18 May 2021 - 02:31 AM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Davegt27, on 18 May 2021 - 02:00 AM, said:

so can we all agree we don't have a problem with this game ?? (since the OP suggested there was a problem)



or are we still working on something

oh, I got quite a few problems with this game.
what the OP is describing is, however, none of them.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

the Only Problem is ...what will i do self in the Game and the Win ?fight with a Team ,or play solo unflexible and only for my own Fun against 23 other Players...will im learn for Tactical Awarness and own fails or searchnig Strawmens for my fails...the last Guys better Plays CoD or MW5...3 Assaults thats not have all in all 600 Dmg or min 3 Kills only lost Tonnage..thats more Leroy Jenkins Mech pilots

[Saved By The Bell]

Sometimes... My team 0 assaults against 5 assaults. And we kill them fast and aggressively.

But usually 0 assaults team just wait (hey, buddy, do something, share armor) and died fast.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 18 May 2021 - 03:46 AM.

[Surefoot]

Saved By The Bell, on 18 May 2021 - 03:42 AM, said:

But usually 0 assaults team just wait (hey, buddy, do something, share armor) and died fast.

To be fair I've seen way too many games where the 4-5 assaults team just camp in low ground and wait for death to come upon them (which it does, resulting in a stomp). Either because of complete paralysis of the W key, or because they brought lurms and are waiting for their teammates to go suicide for them.

[Ihlrath]

To clarify my question was about weight disparity and why it seems more pronounced since I've returned to the game. I believe that's been answered by several with the changes to the MM people brought up. Though I do love seeing the posts where people have to come on and blow their own horn about skill and how everyone but them is terrible. Jeeze.

[lazorbeamz]

The game should stop hiding the fact that assautls are (if true) the best class. people should decide for themselves and only choose lights if they are extremely good at the game and confident with the choice and if it really brings benefits.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 18 May 2021 - 02:03 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Ihlrath, on 18 May 2021 - 01:40 PM, said:

To clarify my question was about weight disparity and why it seems more pronounced since I've returned to the game. I believe that's been answered by several with the changes to the MM people brought up. Though I do love seeing the posts where people have to come on and blow their own horn about skill and how everyone but them is terrible. Jeeze.

I mean, I understood the question. I just think your premise (ie that tonnage should be equal between teams) doesn't make any sense in a PvP shooter.

Maybe if MWO was built on a ticket system instead of kills so bigger 'Mech deaths hurt the team more, or maybe if teams were asymmetrical and lighter teams literally had more pilots I could understand tonnage balance.

In a 12v12 arena shooter? Every 'Mech should be balanced around every other 'Mech. If heavier is better, then that's a balance problem not a matchmaker problem.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 18 May 2021 - 02:45 PM.

[1453 R]

Ihlrath, on 18 May 2021 - 01:40 PM, said:

To clarify my question was about weight disparity and why it seems more pronounced since I've returned to the game. I believe that's been answered by several with the changes to the MM people brought up. Though I do love seeing the posts where people have to come on and blow their own horn about skill and how everyone but them is terrible. Jeeze.

To be fair? I don't know if anybody is really 'tooting their own horn' and crowing about their Superior Skillz. I know I sure as shootin' didn't - I openly acknowledged I'm absolutely awful at this game.

But it's not a high DC to spot that the average MWO pubdrop player has almost all the tactical acumen of a bag of weasel corpses and all the aggression and follow-through of an overweight guinea pig. The typical player in this game is holyshit terrible and no amount of weight disparity will fix that. The enemy assault pilots that outnumber yours 5 to 2 are just as lollerskates awful as your own assault pilots, who back up out of choke points and thus subject themselves to hundreds of damage they didn't need to take whilst bottlenecking wherever they're at and denying themselves their own reinforcements, thereby dying uselessly after dealing less than two hundred damage through sheer, blinding incompetence, cowardice, and a fundamental inability to understand that the path to victory is FORWARD, not "reverse".

I suffer the opposite problem, in that my overeagerness to engage and my absolute hatred of the peeky-pokey scaredy chickenshit nonsense that causes all teams to lose to slow, pointless attrition - even the ones that win - means I tend to find the enemy with my face and signal to my own team where they are with the smoke from my burned-out wreck of a fast-mover. I don't have the manual dexterity I used to either and my aim is questionable at best, especially from the cockpit of the fast mediums I generally favor. So nah - I'm not even remotely tooting my own horn. I know exactly how awful I am at this game.

But tonnage disparity isn't the reason anybody's losing fights in Puglandia. Even with just the games I've had in the last couple of weeks, I can see that. The shrieking, blazing, blinding, horrifying lack of aggression, absolute terror in the face of enemy fire, and utter vacuum of tactical sense virtually the entirety of the playerbase evinces has a lot more to do stomps and lost games than any amount of tonnage discrepancy. Especially when assault 'Mechs are among the easiest kills in MWO - I'd rather fight a Whale than a Timber Wolf 100% of the time, enemy heavies are the real murderers. Assaults are only dangerous if they're surrounded by allies and you can't get at their soft, highly chewable butts, which happens far less often than it should.

Edited by 1453 R, 18 May 2021 - 02:52 PM.

[Ihlrath]

Bag of weasel corpses.... this is the best thing I've seen all day lol Well put and pretty much spot on. I suffer the same thing myself over eagerness to engage and it costs me sometimes. I've found that when I'm patient and wait till things close as where most of my mechs tend to do well... I do okay. But yeah that peeky pokey **** drives me absolutely dog **** bonkers and people don't understand just how easy it is to lose doing that ****... like how hard is it to understand that presenting a single peek a boo to an entire team waiting to melt your face... is a bad thing?

[Jugger Grimrod]

[Moldur]

One of the only major differences I see after not having played in years is that the tonnage is skewed up considerable from before. I imagine this has to do with some concessions for matchmaking, but there's barely a reason to touch mediums or lights when you know that it's likely putting your team at a hard disadvantage. You simply can't bring what a heavy and assault can bring.

Before I felt inclined to bring some of my good mediums, bringing good utility and firepower per tonnage, but now there's no reason to. It's not like I'll be fighting light mechs and mediums. I'm just going to be out of place in the tide of assaults and heavies.

Edited by Moldur, 18 May 2021 - 09:45 PM.

[MrMadguy]

You always forget about skill. It's big factor. Because it's core factor, that is used to form teams. 1 skilled Light is better than 3 noob Assaults. Weight class doesn't matter. It's how it's utilized by player, that matters. And MM forms teams according to skills, not weights. It's actually 3x4, that ruined this game. Because MM was forced to get that 3 Lights no matter what. So, 3 pro Tier 1 guys were picked instead of Tier 3 guys, that should have been picked.

[Surefoot]

I noticed on this game, and on World of Warships which has the exact same problem, is unskilled players tend to favor the heaviest class, with the wrong idea they'll be safer and performing better, which of course by experience is the complete opposite (it's in both cases the most difficult class to play properly, as a slight mistake in positioning and situational awareness cannot be corrected in a timely manner).
I brought a friend of mine to MWO and told him to start with a fast medium, and learn from there, with a reasonably agile heavy as 2nd 'mech so he can learn the ropes without getting punished too harshly for his bad moves. But I have the hindsight of experience to help and guide him, a completely newbie player that will discover MWO will just get a 100 tonner and cram it with a kitchen sink kind of loadout and press Quick Play. Without any kind of feedback, he'll repeat that attempt. He'll also find out quickly that boating lurms in tier 5 will farm damage by just staying on the back line and shoot at any target locked by his teammates, and then get a good match score as a result, rewarding him for not improving his skills.
As for the "X class performs better than Y" it's entirely a matter of skills. I do perform a lot better in mediums, maybe because they adapt better to QP random nonsense (will the team push together ? or will they all press S and leave me alone facing 3 enemies ? will they go full nascar or stop at some point and start shooting ? reading minds is difficult)

Edited by Surefoot, 19 May 2021 - 04:54 AM.