78 replies to this topic

[JediPanther]

Stonefalcon, on 17 May 2021 - 04:35 PM, said:

I was the lone assault on my team once, the enemy assaults all died.

If you take a crap build prepare to be bullied by the mechlab.

Except that's how you find the fun and non-meta builds. lrm 15x2,4ml,ac2 atlas is surprisingly effective.

[Jackofallpots]

effective at what?

[ScrapIron Prime]

Jackofallpots, on 19 May 2021 - 07:02 AM, said:

effective at what?

I'd say more "consistent" than "effective". An assault mech with both direct fire and LRMs is always in a position to pressure the enemy and rarely has to stop firing for long. Its not the "press button, remove torso" kind of assault mech build, but as long as it's in the pack with everyone else and getting its own locks (and thereby sharing armor and using direct fire weapons) it is an effective team member. And it benefits from being a generalist build, meaning that its not completely hosed on the wrong map.

I don't know that I'd go with that particular Atlas build (okay, I totally wouldn't), but my favorite assault mech is something similar... Highlander 733P "Crom Dubh"

[STORM BANDIT]

Surefoot, on 19 May 2021 - 04:51 AM, said:

I noticed on this game, and on World of Warships which has the exact same problem, is unskilled players tend to favor the heaviest class, with the wrong idea they'll be safer and performing better, which of course by experience is the complete opposite (it's in both cases the most difficult class to play properly, as a slight mistake in positioning and situational awareness cannot be corrected in a timely manner).
I brought a friend of mine to MWO and told him to start with a fast medium, and learn from there, with a reasonably agile heavy as 2nd 'mech so he can learn the ropes without getting punished too harshly for his bad moves. But I have the hindsight of experience to help and guide him, a completely newbie player that will discover MWO will just get a 100 tonner and cram it with a kitchen sink kind of loadout and press Quick Play. Without any kind of feedback, he'll repeat that attempt. He'll also find out quickly that boating lurms in tier 5 will farm damage by just staying on the back line and shoot at any target locked by his teammates, and then get a good match score as a result, rewarding him for not improving his skills.
As for the "X class performs better than Y" it's entirely a matter of skills. I do perform a lot better in mediums, maybe because they adapt better to QP random nonsense (will the team push together ? or will they all press S and leave me alone facing 3 enemies ? will they go full nascar or stop at some point and start shooting ? reading minds is difficult)

THIS, pretty much sums up my experience as a noob player to MWO.

I occasionally run a Fafnir in QP, my friends and I jokingly call the "Delete Button"
It is literally a 5 kill or 5 damage mech, The drop evolves in a way that suits me, I delete everything I see and get 5+ kills, or it goes the other way and I do 5 damage and get deleted in the opening minutes of the match, I very rarely have an "average" drop in it.

Take out a good light or a medium/heavy and I can consistently pull my own weight or better in a drop.

This is just my experience as a new player, I personally don't find the number of assaults' for or against to be the single biggest factor in the outcome of any QP match. I can hit an assault at any range with any mech that can shoot that far, that damn flea or piranha at my feet however is a different story. How the team functions and my ability to quickly fix my own mistakes is a bigger factor for me in a win/loss

[Captain Caveman DE]

Jackofallpots, on 19 May 2021 - 07:02 AM, said:

effective at what?

quite literally: it is effective at surprising.
when I encounter such builds on NON-beginners, it goes like "what the hell(bringer)...? "


now, I'm not against funbuilds - quite the contrary. but you gotta find a balance between
effective & fun, else 11ppl will look at your mech and have an itchy TK-finger - and nobody can blame them.
especially when you're wasting taking 100t of your team-composition to pull it off.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 19 May 2021 - 07:55 AM.

[1453 R]

Re: the 2x LRM-15, 1x AC/2, 4xML Atlas

I have to question any assault 'Mech build that can be matched by a medium 'Mech. Now admittedly, or Example Plantsmacker there makes a number of sacrifices to fit the autocannon alongside the missile launchers and the lasers - nobody on the Sphere side uses XLs anymore, I imagine - but it can take that armament without resorting to a vastly-too-small, <XL200 engine or reducing armor to lolno levels. You can have an adequate 250-rated engine and only a half-ton of shaved armor and get the exact same weapons loadout on a 55-ton 'Mech. With ammo.

It's one of the reasons my buddies and I get so tweaked off when we see crappy LRM assault 'Mechs standing in the back and shooting at dodgy locks anybody should be able to know won't be there by the time the missiles show up. If your assault 'Mech's entire armament is only "better" than a stock Trebuchet because you shoveled twenty tons of missile reloads into it, it may be time to re-evaluate whether you need to be using an assault 'Mech.

I'm by no means against mixed-loadout 'Mechs. My favorite Huntsman can best be described as "What the actual LSD banana Shatner**** is this, Rei?". But the loadout should still try and be commensurate with the capabilities of the 'Mech. Your Atlas, your Highlander, your Fafnir? They should all be carrying armaments unmatchable by medium 'Mechs. Those can be mixed armaments, they can be missile-centric armaments, they can be bonkers armaments. But there should be a whole goddamned lot of whatever armaments they are, or there's no point in you being as fat, slow, and high-priority as being an assault 'Mech makes you.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 20 May 2021 - 01:20 PM.
language filter

[ScrapIron Prime]

Captain Caveman DE, on 19 May 2021 - 07:49 AM, said:

quite literally: it is effective at surprising.
when I encounter such builds on NON-beginners, it goes like "what the hell(bringer)...? "


now, I'm not against funbuilds - quite the contrary. but you gotta find a balance between
effective & fun, else 11ppl will look at your mech and have an itchy TK-finger - and nobody can blame them.
especially when you're wasting taking 100t of your team-composition to pull it off.

Yeah, its easy to make a fistful of lasers work well. Or a ballistic point-and-shoot build, or a wall-of-missiles mech. Its the mixed bag of weaponry that takes a practiced hand. New players don't run a Centurion D with LBX/10, mediums, and SRMs without just a little practice, and a build like that Atlas takes even more familiarity. But with enough practice in the chassis, you can make it effective.

Some builds can't be helped, though.

[ScrapIron Prime]

1453 R, on 19 May 2021 - 09:45 AM, said:

"What the actual LSD banana Shatner**** is this, Rei?".

Much as I appreciate the huntsman build, I appreciate the enlightening of my language repetoire more. I had no idea that I needed that phase as much as i evidently do. Thanks!

1453 R, on 19 May 2021 - 09:45 AM, said:

But the loadout should still try and be commensurate with the capabilities of the 'Mech. Your Atlas, your Highlander, your Fafnir? They should all be carrying armaments unmatchable by medium 'Mechs.

In the case of my Highlander build, it does. The weapon combo can fit on a Marauder, and you can drop it to ERML's and LRM 10's and sneak it onto a Hunchback 4J minus the jump jets, but the Highlander brings armor to the field. it has staying power and can tank for the team instead of just peek. That ability to take a punch allows it to soak damage while it fires its lasers and it has the heat sinks to keep doing it. it just WORKS, whereas the Hunchback build DOES have to hide in the back of the pack.

Its a waste of tonnage on a faction play drop, yes. But in quickplay, I can carry a push with it.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 20 May 2021 - 01:20 PM.
quote cleanup

[1453 R]

Fair enough. I wasn't actually trying to be critical of your Highlander - the Fatlas, the Fatner, and the Thighlander were the three most recently mentioned assault 'Mechs so I defaulted to them.

Your Highlander, in specific, is actually a good example. Yeah, the physical armaments can be packed onto smaller 'Mechs, but you also stuffed the thing to the brim with heat sinks, you went with Artemis on your launchers so you're expecting to use them more like guided MRMs than BloatBoats, and you also have enough ammo rather than WTF ammo. There was one match in particular where my little band was trying to figure out what the Atlas with two LRM-20s and two medium lasers - und zat iz it - had done with the rest of his tonnage. He finally told us - "I brought 3500 missiles."

Like...dude. Dude. If at any point you have EVER fired 3500 LRMs in one single match, that match has gone horribly wrong. A game in which you have been shooting and fighting the whole time but still have over five tons of unexpended munitions at the end is a game in which you could have brought five more tons of weaponry, heat sinks, supporting equipment, or something that actually helps you. Anyone who feels like they need 10+ tons of missile ammunition (except for a NCT-B, where even the tabletop designers were all "Nah, bruh - more ammo") is someone who should probably be learning how to missile more efficiently, instead.

But I mean, sure I guess. Those 'Mechs are always nice, safe, easy kills when they show up on the enemy team. Hardly a satisfying fight, but eh. Some seals deserve to get clubbed, I guess?

[ScrapIron Prime]

1453 R, on 19 May 2021 - 10:21 AM, said:

There was one match in particular where my little band was trying to figure out what the Atlas with two LRM-20s and two medium lasers - und zat iz it - had done with the rest of his tonnage. He finally told us - "I brought 3500 missiles."

Like...dude. Dude. If at any point you have EVER fired 3500 LRMs in one single match, that match has gone horribly wrong. A game in which you have been shooting and fighting the whole time but still have over five tons of unexpended munitions at the end is a game in which you could have brought five more tons of weaponry, heat sinks, supporting equipment, or something that actually helps you.

/facepalm

Agreed. You should always get the "25% ammo remaining" warning sometime close to the end of the match. if you don't, you're either dying too fast or carrying too much. New folks, just watch Baradul's channel for a lesson on how to ammo correctly!

[Surefoot]

JediPanther, on 19 May 2021 - 05:57 AM, said:

Except that's how you find the fun and non-meta builds. lrm 15x2,4ml,ac2 atlas is surprisingly effective.

That's a complete waste of tonnage, and a huge chunk or armor that will sit behind a rock for the whole match until pushed upon, instead of being on the front line where assaults belong. Not saying it matters much in tier 5 or QP in general due to the randomness of the MM but really, that's bad for the team.
And like others mentioned, this loadout is seriously undergunned for a 100 tonner. If i turn a corner and suddenly face THIS atlas, i'll laugh and just brawl it to death, this is not the expected response from a Surprise Atlas...

ScrapIron Prime, on 19 May 2021 - 07:21 AM, said:

I don't know that I'd go with that particular Atlas build (okay, I totally wouldn't), but my favorite assault mech is something similar... Highlander 733P "Crom Dubh"

This is the loadout of an Archer 2R. 70t, with better missile quirks, and which moves faster. In usage i'd drop the two mediums as they dont match the range of anything else on that build and use that for a 300LE and another DHS, for better sustain.

Edited by Surefoot, 19 May 2021 - 03:11 PM.

[1453 R]

If you're gonna make a long-rangey fire-support Atlas, at least make it something other folks would not be okay with standing in front of.

(Note: build is terrible, do not use)
(Note 2: I know Stealth Armor Fatlai are a meme, but the ability to just say no to enemy R buttons is useful in a distance fire support design when used with discretion)
(Note3: Arm ammo for torso weapons makes Jesus sad, do not do)
(Note4: would still be much more wary of dual RAC ECM Fatlas than Fatlas with armament one can load on a Plantsmacker)

[ScrapIron Prime]

Surefoot, on 19 May 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:

This is the loadout of an Archer 2R. 70t, with better missile quirks, and which moves faster. In usage i'd drop the two mediums as they dont match the range of anything else on that build and use that for a 300LE and another DHS, for better sustain.

The archer does indeed have 15 percent missile cool down instead of the Highlander’s 10 percent, but the lasers are arm mounted and low slung, the thing doesn’t jump, and it can’t soak damage. Plus the mediums work very well with the Highlander’s other armament in its intended role. Yes, it CAN fight at 600m with LL and lurm, but it’s designed to shine at half that, where the medium lasers add punch to the larges and the lurms have no travel time and tight grouping. And when the reds under run you, four lasers is decidedly better than two.

nothing wrong with the archer, I’ve just never gotten the mileage out of it like I have the old Highlander. Personal preference.

[Escef]

1453 R, on 19 May 2021 - 03:06 PM, said:

If you're gonna make a long-rangey fire-support Atlas, at least make it something other folks would not be okay with standing in front of.

(Note: build is terrible, do not use)
(Note 2: I know Stealth Armor Fatlai are a meme, but the ability to just say no to enemy R buttons is useful in a distance fire support design when used with discretion)
(Note3: Arm ammo for torso weapons makes Jesus sad, do not do)
(Note4: would still be much more wary of dual RAC ECM Fatlas than Fatlas with armament one can load on a Plantsmacker)

I'd swap the Stealth armor for endo steel, swap the 300STD for a 350LFE, rearrange the ammo, CASE the side torso. https://mech.nav-alp...b4117b_AS7-D-DC I wouldn't run it myself, but I'm thinking the bigger engine will give it the speed to get into position and be relevant. The two biggest problems with assault LRMboats is the difficulty in keeping up with more mobile battles and the pilots that think LRMing from 900+ meters is a good idea (if you're over 500 meters out there's just too much time for the enemy to break lock or get to cover). Stealth armor generally isn't worth it. Sure, I'll run it on one or two poops'n'giggles builds, but the only thing I've seen it be really effective on is Commandos and Fleas.

[Leone]

I still prefer my old umbrella AS7-D-DC. Granted, it was designed before the reskilling, meant to annoy folk as much as possible, so as to draw all the fire and give 'em the old shoulder once the uacs jam.

~Leone.

[Surefoot]

ScrapIron Prime, on 19 May 2021 - 04:03 PM, said:

nothing wrong with the archer, I’ve just never gotten the mileage out of it like I have the old Highlander. Personal preference.

Archer is a 2nd line support 'mech. This kind of loadout (i prefer MRM on them personally, no lock needed, better damage...). Dont use an assault with huge armor (and JJ ! Brawl time !) in 2nd line.

Edited by Surefoot, 19 May 2021 - 11:08 PM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

to be blunt about the Atlas

-if you're doing a longranged atlas, you're doing it wrong -> other mechs can do that WAY better -> 100t wasted.
-if you're doing a stealth atlas, you're doing it wrong -> other mechs can do that WAY better -> 100t wasted.

-if you're doing a midrange atlas -> hey, those things can work when fitted and piloted accordingly!
-if you're doing a shortrange, brawly atlas -> this is where that thing is actually better than many 100t mechs.


feel free to disagree.

[Grus]

martian, on 16 May 2021 - 08:38 PM, said:

If you do not like it, use Twitter to let Russ block you for criticism.

Fixed it for you...

[Escef]

Captain Caveman DE, on 20 May 2021 - 04:27 AM, said:

to be blunt about the Atlas

-if you're doing a longranged atlas, you're doing it wrong -> other mechs can do that WAY better -> 100t wasted.
-if you're doing a stealth atlas, you're doing it wrong -> other mechs can do that WAY better -> 100t wasted.

-if you're doing a midrange atlas -> hey, those things can work when fitted and piloted accordingly!
-if you're doing a shortrange, brawly atlas -> this is where that thing is actually better than many 100t mechs.


feel free to disagree.

While I think the term "wasted" is an exaggeration, I have to agree with the overall evaluation of what the Atlas is and isn't good at. A large part of what makes the Atlas underperform when kitted for long range is the low hardpoints. The ballistic and energy hardpoints on the Atlas are just too damned low, making your beams and projectiles prone to hitting terrain.

A mech like the Nightstar, OTOH, doesn't have this issue. Its weapon hardpoints are at or just below cockpit level, so your view is pretty much what the line of travel for your beams and projectiles will be. (The Nightstar has other issues, of course. Like the fact that the arms are so far apart that it's prone to hitting buildings, terrain, and teammates that you thought you were clear of.)

The best Inner Sphere assaults for long range ballistics (by the standards of hardpoints) are the Corsair and the Fafnir, because the weapon hardpoints are closer to the pilot's line of sight (without being separated as widely as the Nightstar's).

Can a mech still do work with a loadout it isn't better suited for? Sure. I mean, I have a Battlemaster 1S kitted as an LRMboat, but I'll admit it is better suited to packing long range energy weapons on the cockpit adjacent energy hardpoints (and reserving the missile points for SRMs, MRMs, or maybe RLs). In the case of the that Battlemaster, I had long range energy on my 1D (at the time) and 1G(P), why would I want three mechs that were near-copies of each other? (Besides, sometimes an LRMboat is what you need for low-intensity fun.)

[1453 R]

Heh. To be blunt in turn, Captain Caveman?

A bad 'Mech, piloted with confidence and aggression, is a more valuable asset to your team than three good 'Mechs piloted with diffidence and timidity. Honestly, that's one of the key factors I use when I look at somebody's 'Mech in spectate mode and figure out whether to silently judge them or not - "Is this the loadout of a pilot that wants to bring harm to her enemies? Or is this the loadout of someone who's afraid of harm being brought to them?" That's the core of the reason why assault LRM boats typically (but not quite always) piss me off - most of them are clearly designed to avoid being harmed, rather than to harm their enemies.

A RAC ATAC Atlas is designed to bring harm to its enemies, even if it's not ideal for the role. MRM-blasting "My Rocket Launchers have Reloads" wall-of-explosives 'Mechs like Stalkers are designed to bring harm to their enemies. Many of these aren't the archetypical perfect use of their chassis, or The Best Possible user of a given weapon, but I'm willing to forgive quite a bit from a pilot that is working to bring harm to their enemy.