86 replies to this topic

[ShiverMeRivets]

People prefer to play heavy and assaults not because lights are bad - because they come to this game to play big hulking mechs, not tiny ironman suits with physically impossible accelerations. No amount of buffing will change that. The style of play required from light mechs, especially the 20 tonners, is just not what we expect from a mech game.

[Escef]

ShiverMeRivets, on 27 May 2021 - 06:28 AM, said:

People prefer to play heavy and assaults not because lights are bad - because they come to this game to play big hulking mechs, not tiny ironman suits with physically impossible accelerations. No amount of buffing will change that. The style of play required from light mechs, especially the 20 tonners, is just not what we expect from a mech game.

Physically impossible acceleration is a hallmark of the IP. You can have an 80 ton Charger moving at over 85 kph do a 180° turn and accelerate to over 50 kph in about 10 seconds. It can be at a dead stop and accelerate to over 85 kph in under 10 seconds. The rules of the tactical game Mechwarrior is based on have mechs stopping on a dime and accelerating to top speed almost instantaneously. Hell, there are some light mechs we will never get in MWO because they move so fast they will break the netcode. The Firemoth has a top speed over 200 kph, and it isn't even the fastest mech out there.

[The Basilisk]

Escef, on 26 May 2021 - 05:49 PM, said:

Given that the is (or at least used to) track what percentage of each weight class was in the queue, I always thought it would be a good idea to add a bonus or penalty to c-bill earnings equal to the number of percentage points off from 25 your weight class's current population was at. Only 10% of players in lights? Congrats, you get a 15% earnings bump for the match. Assaults are saturating the queue? Hey, maybe you should diversify a little, here's a 5% earnings penalty for the match. Heavies making up half the queue? Look, we all love Marauders and Warhammers, but things are getting silly, 25% penalty.

I can't promise it will work (many of the long time players have more c-bills than they know what to do with, this won't motivate them), but it might be worth a shot.

since 90 percent of the current content is driven by events revolving arround certain mech types this could be problematic....

[The Basilisk]

Escef, on 27 May 2021 - 06:40 AM, said:

Physically impossible acceleration is a hallmark of the IP. You can have an 80 ton Charger moving at over 85 kph do a 180° turn and accelerate to over 50 kph in about 10 seconds. It can be at a dead stop and accelerate to over 85 kph in under 10 seconds. The rules of the tactical game Mechwarrior is based on have mechs stopping on a dime and accelerating to top speed almost instantaneously. Hell, there are some light mechs we will never get in MWO because they move so fast they will break the netcode. The Firemoth has a top speed over 200 kph, and it isn't even the fastest mech out there.

you are absolutely right...mechs are overall much too fast...much much much tooo fast in terms of reaction and acceleration deceleration jumping decent...(I think momentary gravity accel is 3x normal)

Thing is...there would be an outcry if Battlemechs would actually behave like they should do.
If you f.e. try to sling a Gauss Rifle that weights 18T at arms lenght of a mech (7-8m) ofcenter of that mech with a radial speed of 120deg/sec....
Or a Hellspawn (12m tall) running at 120kph into a lake .....
Or the Flea running down a street at 150kph on concreat...even if the street would hold its weight what do you think would happen if that morron trys a U-turn

But the thing is that if you would make mechs act like they should there would be a lot of mechs in game that would either be unplayable or would suck so bad they would never be played.
And lights are already much much too strong...mediums and heavys are quite right and assaults are even much too weak.
Thing is with their super limited or not existing capacity how would have pgi ever been able to implement a reasonable way to refelct the scarcity und uniqueness of certain mech classes or tech levels.

[Vlad Ward]

This is very much a source/IP problem. Lights have always been garbage in Battletech and by extension Mechwarrior. This is intentional and is balanced out over long campaigns by cost and scarcity.

Making a Light just as useful as an Assault or a Heavy (which IS the ideal end-state for an Arena Shooter that isn't using respawns+tickets or some other asymmetrical balancing system) means taking a sharp right turn at Albuquerque and throwing out the Tech Manual for Lights/Mediums.

Trying to stay "Lore-Friendly" and just rescaling Lights or slowing down bullets until they're "usable" is not a reasonable solution.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 27 May 2021 - 07:16 AM.

[Escef]

The Basilisk, on 27 May 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

Or the Flea running down a street at 150kph on concreat...even if the street would hold its weight what do you think would happen if that morron trys a U-turn

Believe it or not, there are rules in table top for that one. In fact, the little blurbs of fiction in the back of the manual that came with the old CityTech boxed set even had a bit about a Locust pilot that went to make a high speed turn, skidded out of control and barreled through an infantry platoon and sent them rolling around "like oranges". (His mech stopped when it crashed feet first into a building. He then ejected, sustaining serious injuries in the process.)

[DreadDjinn]

Spitballing here, but...

I thought it was PSR. Lights take 2-3 times as long to rack up the damage. Not that they cannot. If your team is trading well and winning, it'll be the lights taking a PSR hit.

Lights are beastmode 1v1. But against a formation of overlapping fields of fire they might as well just go huddle in a corner.

In short, lights are effective, but the maps and rewards are set against them. A bigger map or one with more cover would allow them to leverage their speed or trade better, respectively.

[Papaspud]

Gagis, on 26 May 2021 - 11:21 PM, said:

About half the time someone complains lights are underpowered and about half the time someone complains lights are overpowered.

Seems pretty balanced to me.

So balanced- nobody plays light mechs. The people who complain about lights being OP= taters, mostly. There are a few with broken hitboxes= commando, but they are few and just don't have any firepower. When I see anywhere close 50% lights and med, then we can talk about the game being balanced.

[Khobai]

East Indy, on 26 May 2021 - 05:36 PM, said:

...when we say "buff lights" we really mean "what if 3 or 4, or even 6 opponents weren't able to two-shot those poor guys."

This is silly, and the longer it's accepted as normal, the more balance and design decisions will be colored by it.

pretty much. role warfare is essentially non-existent in MWO.

a lot of lights and mediums need massive buffs. lights and mediums also need actual roles to perform that heavies and assaults cant do better

And it would be nice if the game went back to 8v8 too. lights were more powerful in 8v8 because there was less overlapping fire from both teams. In 8v8 light mechs were also a proportionally larger part of their team's overall tonnage and mattered much more as a result.

I hate that PGI wavered on going back to 8v8. it was so much better.

Edited by Khobai, 27 May 2021 - 10:28 AM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Khobai, on 27 May 2021 - 10:24 AM, said:

I hate that PGI wavered on going back to 8v8. it was so much better.

Well to be fair, we (forumites) held a vote on it and it was close enough to a tie that they said it wasn't worth swapping back. Personally I prefer bigger fights in any game I play but the more crowded a map gets the harder it is on the game engine and net code, so I understand the limitation at least.

[Khobai]

Xeno Phalcon, on 27 May 2021 - 10:39 AM, said:

Well to be fair, we (forumites) held a vote on it and it was close enough to a tie that they said it wasn't worth swapping back. Personally I prefer bigger fights in any game I play but the more crowded a map gets the harder it is on the game engine and net code, so I understand the limitation at least.

the problem is they went from 8v8 to 12v12 without addressing the effect that had on lights

lights just ended up weaker overnight.

the maps were also designed for 8v8 thats why the spawns are broken in 12v12 on certain maps.

I wouldnt mind 12v12 if the issues were fixed and 12v12 was just as balanced as 8v8 was.

Edited by Khobai, 27 May 2021 - 10:46 AM.

[martian]

Maybe, in a month or two, I will use my Lights again.

But as it is now (after those latest patches), practically all weapons are deadlier, while armor of my light 'Mechs stays the same.

[1453 R]

Man.

It's almost like there's an event running right now based on doing a bunch of damage of every type, collecting a bunch of kills/KMDDs, accruing a bunch of match score, and doing other things that all correspond super heavily to blowing the giant metal johnsons off of everything in sight in order to score a sweet freebie 'Mech, 'Mech bay, and a bunch of smaller swag.

I wonder if the event that super-emphasizes being super heavily armed and dealing as much damage as possible in every game would naturally drive people to pilot the sorts of 'Mechs that are best suited to being super heavily armed and dealing as much damage as possible?

...nah. That's crazy talk, Rei. The hell you thinking, ya gol durned ghost? Clearly it's a deep imbalance of the game and not just people tryin'a shoot robits harder to score a free Timberpuppy after they buffed the Timberpuppy...

[TheCaptainJZ]

Whether you agree or not, this is one of the reasons I think PGI nerfed the mobility of assualts. The playerbase naturally gravitates towards bigger mechs and thus more power. The best strength of lights and mediums over heavies and assults is mobility. If you make assaults too agile, that cuts down the strength of lights.

Lights are just in a bad spot because they seem to be the hardest class to actually balance in any kind of way. At the 20 ton mark, they can't really load any weapons, and the engine, heatsink, and construction rules really limit what you can do with them. At the 35 ton mark, they are simply too large, physically, right now. Some have ECM, some have stealth. Hardpoints are all over the map. There's some really good variants, and lots of complaints about them, and a lot of very underwhelming ones.

[Leone]

What, no. Lights are meant to bear the brunt of the assault, do the damage and carry the team to victory! Urbie, the pocket assault, for all your tactical needs.

~Leone.

[Escef]

Leone, on 27 May 2021 - 03:51 PM, said:

What, no. Lights are meant to bear the brunt of the assault, do the damage and carry the team to victory! Urbie, the pocket assault, for all your tactical needs.

~Leone.

Well, yeah, those little *%^$plugs are dangerous.

[Haipyng]

The early lights need love just to even come close to competing with newer lights. They do not boat the same firepower as the newer lights. Of course then they made it next to impossible to get a map and game type that suits lights by default. We once were able to choose map and game type. Conquest on a large map made for some of the most fun 'run and gun' matches I ever had in MWO. Spiders with cap accelerators (which is practically a dead skill now) and the dreaded Firestarter hunters that had them out gunned.

Most of those early mechs were balanced when it was thought we would have roles.

Today taking a light gimps your team by not bringing armor and health to your side. Every map is played skirmish and it requires sharing armor, drawing fire, and doing decent damage.

[Haipyng]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 27 May 2021 - 02:16 AM, said:

Lights and Assaults in skilless Hands the best Way to a Lost Match..most lights thinking thats hes can fight alone against 3 Heavys and dies in Seconds while hes not can Aim and Firing by moving and without Maximal Zoom , and the most Assaults have the Battlestar Galactica Syndrome

Don't know if it is the Battlestar Syndrome, or that Assaults because of their slow speed are not tolerant of movement mistakes. If you are not well practiced and move into an area where the other team can setup firing lines they can't retreat without taking significant damage. Assaults are not a newbie mech like many think they are.

The flip side of that is the NASCAR tactic that results in them being abandoned to either being wolfpacked down while trying to keep up, or turning to fight a significant number of mechs alone that only grows by the second they are there.

[Leone]

Which can be done by a light.

~Leone.

[Bowelhacker]

Just give any and every mech 40 tons or under a bonus quirk for objective stuff and scouting. They can run off and cap or whatever and the bigger mechs can get back to cracking skulls.

Edited by Bowelhacker, 27 May 2021 - 10:07 PM.