22 replies to this topic

[Byakugan01]

So, I recently bought my "first" Heavy, the Archer 2R, to use as an LRM boat. I have two builds for it Right now, trying to figure out which to stick with

The first is one that uses 3 LRM 15s.

The second uses 2 LRM 20s:


of those, the one I am most confident in is the second, because I was actually able to fit some heatsinks on. Neither build is actually cheap to implement though, since implementing either would eat up about half of my remaining dosh, so I'd like to wait for some feedback before finalizing either of them.

Images are linked because the forum does not like directly placing steam screenshots it seems. Which is why I linked the screenshots.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Here’s my take on your build. (And introducing you to Mech DB)

https://mech.nav-alp...8bee4728_ARC-2R

The heavy lift for this build is the upgrade to a light engine and double heat sinks. If six tons of ammo proves to not be enough, you could drop the torso heat sink for a 7th ton and CASE to protect it.

And pro-tip, the quickest way to lock up an enemy target for lurming is to shoot it with your lasers. You’ll find the archer is totally boss when fighting at 300-400 meters.

[Gagis]

The 6R works particularly well with 4LL plus maybe a couple ERML since the side torsos with RL10s in them are incredibly deep damage sponges.

[The Basilisk]

Hi, this is my take on the Archer 2R. http://ARC-2R
Go with the flow and wear down enemys till someone has open components then use the Rockets and gut him.

Edited by The Basilisk, 17 August 2021 - 01:39 AM.

[Ignatius Audene]

Never go with std heatsink (anni and one two mechs might be an exception). Never go std engine on an lrm mech. In the longer run u will prob even ditch the medium lasers.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Ignatius Audene, on 17 August 2021 - 05:07 AM, said:

In the longer run u will prob even ditch the medium lasers.

No, keep the lasers. The worst LRM playstyle is the one where you ONLY have LRMs and fight from over the horizon, completely dependent on your team for locks. The best LRM playstyle is one where you're just behind the brawl line, adding direct fire damage with LRMs and secondary weapons and getting your own locks by drilling people with lasers.

IMHO of course.

[Gagis]

The secondary weapons just reduce the tonnage available for more launchers and more ammo even when you are behind the brawl line. Do one thing and do it well.

[Byakugan01]

Looking at what I can do with it, 4 tons isn't exactly enough to add another LRM 20, though... or even a LRM 15. If I wanted to do that, I would need to cripple my armor to do so. When I was playing around with various LRM mechs in the simulator, the Night Gyr D felt like the hyper specialized Heavy LRM Mech... but it did so at the cost of truly horrific heat gain, very limited customizability, poor quirks, Clan-Style LRM launch "streams" and a very limited ability to defend itself in close quarters (because I assume I WILL be flanked/ abandoned).

Might just be how long I've been out of the game, but I don't really see a way to build the Archer 2R that doesn't use it's laser hardpoints unless I bring LRM 15s as opposed to LRM 20s, and that had the same result damage wise in the sim as the two LRM 20s. In which case, might as well bring the MLs so I can get extra damage while I lurm/ defend myself.

RE: CASE, since there is only one ton of LRM ammo in the RT, is it really worth protecting with CASE?

Edited by Byakugan01, 17 August 2021 - 08:46 AM.

[w0qj]

Archer ARC-2R is a good choice!

Clicky: Baradul's Archer 2R build, two videos



He uses 2x artemis-LRM15, 6ton LRM ammo, 5x ML, 1x TAG.

Personally I find that ML (Medium Lasers) run quite hot, and burn times rather long.
I prefer MPL (Medium Pulse Lasers), even if I have to settle for less MPL as compared to ML's.
Usually 4xMPL is enough to discourage Lights, and even kill weakened foes during endgame.
Just my cent.

[Disclaimer: I'm a fellow avid MWO player; I am not linked in any way to Baradul!]

Edited by w0qj, 17 August 2021 - 09:49 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Byakugan01, on 17 August 2021 - 08:17 AM, said:

RE: CASE, since there is only one ton of LRM ammo in the RT, is it really worth protecting with CASE?

CASE costs zero tons (recent patch) and 1 space. if you have leftover space where you have ammo, always use case. That way if the ammo blows, your CT takes no damage and you're still alive.

w0qj, on 17 August 2021 - 09:37 AM, said:

Personally I find that ML (Medium Lasers) run quite hot, and burn times rather long.
I prefer MPL (Medium Pulse Lasers), even if I have to settle for less MPL as compared to ML's.
Usually 4xMPL is enough to discourage Lights, and even kill weakened foes during endgame.
Just my cent.

Medium lasers have a longer range than MPL's. With Mediums, you can find that sweet spot where you're engaging with both lasers and LRMs. (And nailing someone with lasers also has the lovely side effect of locking them as a target for your LRMs.) ER Mediums pair even better, but he doesn't have the heat sinks for those.

And yes, listen to Baradul! You don't have to copy him, but he gives solid advice on both builds and tactical awareness.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 17 August 2021 - 10:57 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Oh, and its off topic, but here's the LRM build that happens to be the mech I've spent over 135 hours of match time in...

https://mech.nav-alp...54dd25_HGN-733P

"Crom Dubh", a Highlander 733P with 2 Artemis 15's, 2 Large Lasers, 2 Medium Lasers. With bagpipe war horn, of course! You'll note that it mirrors Baradul's advice on lurming from the brawl line where you can get your own locks and drill people with lasers. The Large Lasers in particular are high torso mounted and reach out to 1000 meters to tickle someone enough to lock up LRM targets quickly. And it has the heat sinks and ammo to just keep firing with all weapons, plus the armor to roll some serious damage.

Mind you, I'm not recommending you run it, as there are far more efficient damage per ton builds out there (like the Archer you're putting together), but it shows you the concept that w0qj and I are looking at in our advice to you, and it does remind folks that a pilot who really knows the build (s)he's driving can rack up some serious numbers even if the build isn't the most meta one out there.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 17 August 2021 - 11:23 AM.

[Byakugan01]

Hmmm... based on what y'all have said, the real question is LRM 15 or 20, with the rest of the build following from there. It looks to me like the LRM 15 build trades LRM damage for more Laser damage, while the LRM 20 build does the opposite.



I could swap out the BAP on the LRM 20 build for an extra laser/ TAG and maybe a heatsink, but just based on my experience with the trial mechs ECM is REALLY annoying to deal with, so I kind of want the BAP as I see quite a lot of ECM. Though, it all comes down to whether that or an extra heatsink and stronger engine are more important in practice.

Baradul's LRM 15 build looks good, but I'm unsure how the tradeoff between the LRM 20s for the 15s, extra lasers and heat sinks and TAG works out. I have been running into heat management issues with the LRM 20 build in the sim while deliberately, constantly spamming alpha strikes with 4 MLs + 2 LRM 20s, and that is with the relevant perks slotted (I fortunately had plenty of historic/ gen EXP to use). I might try building the LRM 15 build for the simulator and seeing how it compares; I expect roughly 75% of the LRM 20 build damage from LRM 15s. again though, no BAP... and no room for CASE on it either.


Wait, the TAG takes the place of BAP. D'oh.

I played around with it in the sim, does roughly meet those expectations. Does still have some heat issues even with all the heat sinks. Still, probably either Bardul's build or the LRM 20 build looking to be the contenders for what I go with. I'll have almost no money after finalizing the build, so better make it last! Wish there was an actual practice set where the targets move and shoot, would be more telling for how these builds will actually feel and play in practice.

Edited by Byakugan01, 17 August 2021 - 12:44 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

The primary use for your Beagle would be extended sensor range and shorter target lock times. It cannot counter ECM except when its really close... inside your minimum LRM range. To lock onto ECM protected targets with LRMs, a TAG laser is your best tool.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i run my ARC-2R as follows (2 LRM-20 (6 1/2t ammo), 4 MLs, running an LE-300 with 2 DHS (in engine) as well as Endo and LFF. (Armor is full -5pts each leg)) you can always substitute one of the MLs for a Tag though. (since they nerfed so many of the systems that assist LRM i haven't used them as much)

it has alright speed/maneuverability and the MLs are usually to at least make a light reconsider coming in close. if not you can still do a bit of damage while help arrives or you die.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 17 August 2021 - 03:06 PM.

[w0qj]

Versioning:
~Edited 18-Aug-2021: Corrected order of ammo use in arms/torso parts, and as a consequence ammo placement in mech amended. A big thanks to Aidan Crenshaw!

==========
<<Warning: Long posting>>
Please don't get put off by below (admittedly) Great Wall Of Text; it's MechLab experience gleaned from spending countless millions of CBills! Also spent mega CBills Archer Tempest build, very similar to below ARC-2R build, hence my motivation to share this experience!

Do have fun outfitting your ARC-2R !

- - - - - - - - - -
Inquisitive returning players and newcomers are always welcome!

Scraplron Prime's ARC-2R build from above is good !

Here's my take on ARC-2R, purposely putting in a few more wrinkles for the sake of MechLab tweaking discussions:
https://mech.nav-alp...b2d45ecb_ARC-2R
~Above MechDB build: 5.5ton LRM ammo, 4x ML, TAG, BAP, LE280 engine.
~Recommend build: 6ton LRM ammo, 4x ML, TAG, BAP, LE280 engine.

1. Shaved 0.5 ton from head/arm/legs for extra 0.5ton ammo.
~This technique is only for extremely ammo-starved builds.
~Not recommended for above ARC-2R build. I would personally use that free 0.5ton to pad up arm/leg armor instead for noticeably better survival, especially after Survival Skill Tree tweaks.
~I find that Head armor of 6/7/8 is good enough. If a player is so good that he can headshot you, additional armor won't help. (Keep moving even when firing LRM! I rock forward/backwards at a slight angle while firing at same target. Torso twist when you are taking enemy fire and do not have LRM lock on target!)

2) TAG on left arm. Distracts foe from targeting your all important RT (Right Torso) hopefully.
~In general, about 60% of your mech's firepower would be eliminated if RT is destroyed. Practice torso-twist to use your arms to shield/protect your RT.
~Personally I would leave out TAG, and use that 1ton for more artemis-LRM ammo, because: Artemis-LRM can visually target and LRM-lock onto faraway ECM foes.

3) 2x Artemis-LRM20. There is a noticeable difference artemis-LRM20 vs artemis-LRM15.
~Using 2x artemis-LRM20 and lasers, I would occasionally get some Killing Blows.
~Using 2x artemis-LRM15 and lasers, I would rarely get any Killing Blows at all.
~Do not use 3xLRM15. use 2xLRM20. Use the weight saved for more LRM ammo!

4) 4x Medium Lasers. Just enough to deter Lights, and outright kill weakened foes during endgame, especially when you have run out of LRM ammo. I find that 3x Medium Lasers is not enough to deter Lights. ymmv.
Also, 6x ML or even 6x MPL is too hot for the Archer, which does not have enough weight or critical slots for lots of DHS. With 4x ML or 4x MPL, you can shoot both LRM and your lasers at the same time for a few volleys!

5) BAP. As Scraplron Prime said, BAP extends your sensor range.
BAP also allows me to continue firing 1-2 additional LRM volleys at my original faraway target still locked in my sights, even while I'm suddenly inside nearby foe's ECM bubble. Immediately after that, I will need my lasers for terminal defense vs Lights. (Hence I prefer 4x MPL, bit I digress).

6) LE (Light Engine) for weight savings.
Stick with "breakpoint" LE engines.
~LE275 engine because it's the first engine you can put in extra 1x DHS into engine itself, saving you 3x critical slots.
~LE280 because LE280 and LE275 weights the same!! Hence using LE280 is a no-brainer, as the standard procedure.
~The next breakpoint is LE300 engine where you can put in 2x DHS into engine itself, but this is for LRM-only build with no lasers. Not enough weight on Archer to use LE300 engine if you plan to use laser + LRM20 + BAP + ammo + DHS.
~If your account is still CBills starved, you can stick with the key breakpoint engines only (LE280, LE300, LE325, LE350, LE375, LE400). Buying other engines literally cost millions of CBills, for minimal speed increase, not worth the CBills unless you have lots and lots in your account already.
~LE280 because you need to be agile, to avoid enemy dakka/laser/MRM fire, and take cover from LRM/ATM. Hence I try to get most of [Kinetic_Burst] nodes in [Mobility] Skill Tree.

7) LRM ammo placement (and ammo placement in general).

Amended 18-Aug-2021: thanks to Aidan Crenshaw!
~Ammo gets used in this order: [Center_Torso]>>[Right_Torso]>>[Left_Torso]>>[Left_Arm]>>[Right_Arm]>>[Left_Leg]>>[Right_Leg]>>[Head]
~Ammo gets used in this order: [Head]>>[Arms]>>[Side_Torso]>>[Center_Torso]>>[Leg]

~0.5ton LRM ammo in head Right Torso, and 1ton LRM ammo in Right Arm, because 0.5ton ammo in Right Torso gets used up first, and 1ton LRM ammo in Right Arm gets used thereafter. Also notice that 0.5ton ammo has only "5" health, vs 1ton ammo has "10" health. So put 0.5ton ammo in Right Torso where it gets used up first, in this mech layout scenario. Heard that unused ammo has 10% chance of exploding when destroyed.
~LRM ammo in arms, because these gets used up next. I personally budget myself to use up all ammo in head torso/arms before my mech arms gets destroyed, hence no CASE in arms. Notice that there's an empty slot in the right arm for this above build to put in your CASE, which cost 1 critical slot, but weights "zero" tons. I try not to put ammo into [Side_Torso] or [Center_Torso], because that's usually where foes aim for. Don't want the (small) chance of ammo explosion.
~Personally I'll skip the CASE critical slot and use it for something else. For example, I can remove the 0.5ton ammo from head from Right Torso, remove CASE from Right Arm, leaving you with 2 empty critical slots, and put in 0.5ton missile-based AMS +0.5ton AMS-ammo which costs 2 critical slots. (Need additional 0.5ton mech weight savings to do this, again not recommend, but just to show you the MechLab technique).

8) DHS (Double Heat Sinks). More efficient Cooling, at the cost of 3x critical slots per DHS.
~You almost never use SHS (Single Heat Sinks), unless you can clearly state why you need this. Actually most MWO players cannot! You can use SHS in Solaris7 dueling builds (increase heat containment/capacity, kill single enemy with alpha strike(s), don't care about cooling). There are very few QP mech builds where you need to use SHS. My MAD-4HP with LRM100 needs SHS, due to severe lack of critical slots, and smaller engine.

9) Less obvious Skill Tree tips.
~I try to max out [Skeletal_Density] in the Survival Skill Tree. This increases my base heat containment capacity! More [Heat_Containment] in Operations Skill Tree amplifies this further by percentages. More heat containment/capacity also helps passive cooling a bit more, since [Cool_Run] from Operations Skill Tree is a percentage% based of your final Heat Containment/Capacity.
~[Reinforced_Casing] helps protect your weapons from being destroyed by critical hits. ie: Maxing out your [Skeletal_Density] also increases your [Reinforced_Casing] nodes (Survival Skill Tree) along the way, which from experience I rarely have my weapons destroyed even after armor has been stripped away. Usually enemy has to destroy my entire torso to remove my weapons, thanks to Reinforced Casing.
~You need to be agile, to avoid enemy dakka/laser/MRM fire, and take cover from LRM/ATM. Hence I try to get most [Kinetic_Burst] nodes in [Mobility] Skill Tree.

10) Finally, [Endo_Steel] structure vs [Ferro_Fibrous] armor.
~For greater weight savings, obviously you try to avoid Standard structure and Standard armor.
~Always use [Endo_Steel] over [Ferro_Fibrous] as standard procedure for more weight savings, as both consume the same number critical slots.
~For Inner Sphere bigger/heavier mechs with more critical slots, usually Heavy/Assault mechs, consider using [Standard] structure + [Light_Ferro_Fibrous] armor. A bit less weight savings, more critical slots, usually for more DHS or ammo space.

Edited by w0qj, 18 August 2021 - 06:05 AM.

[Leone]

ARC-2R

Here's my thoughts. Pure Lrm is bad. You're at the mercy of lights and a brawl rush, so you want a back up weapon. And if you're gonna have a back up weapon, why not go whole hog? The design concept here is to probe and skirmish, finding where in the enemy team is ecm and ams free and pounding away, only to sucker the enemy into optimal brawl range. Most folk try to flank and finish the missile mechs, so use that to lure them into ambushes.

Great for impatient brawlers looking for something to do until the teams start smashing together!

As for lrm 15s v 20s, well, 20's are better at piercing through ams, 15s are for more sustainable area denial lrming rather'n heavy hitting mech destruction. Do you want a mech for tearing apart the enemy as fast as possible, or for forcing their heads down and more endless missile spam?

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 17 August 2021 - 08:14 PM.

[Gagis]

I'd try to make room for 3LRM15 so you can do one thing well instead of two things poorly.

[The Basilisk]

Gagis, on 17 August 2021 - 11:16 PM, said:

I'd try to make room for 3LRM15 so you can do one thing well instead of two things poorly.

While I basicaly sympathise with the sentiment for the sake of simplicity when building a team and executing a strat or simply because I am new and hard pressed to do one role right and stay with the team or in right position etc. this is not how things work in QP.

On the contrary. In my experience if you go full LRM with maybe TAG support and sensor range extension like beagleAP you will end up either doing low 3dig damage or even only 2dig because you get no locks and getting instamauled when showing your face or you get lucky ppl are ignoring you and all lights are buissy elswhere.(and that is a rare exception)

No in QP don't go without short range backup, you only will end up completely inert for your team and frustrated due to long streaks of doing no damage and dieing without getting the chance to do anything.

[Ignatius Audene]

As a starter the suggested mixed builds are fine. In fp or with more xp 3 ×15 or more are better. But then u pretty much dont need / use lurms anymore

[Aidan Crenshaw]

w0qj, on 17 August 2021 - 07:17 PM, said:

7) LRM ammo placement (and ammo placement in general).
~Ammo gets used in this order: [Head]>>[Arms]>>[Side_Torso]>>[Center_Torso]>>[Leg]

Lots of sound advice here, w0qj, but that part is wrong.
Ammo consumption goes:

• CT
  
• RT
  
• LT
  
• LA
  
• RA
  
• LL
  
• RL
  
• H