619 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

Capt Deadpool, on 11 June 2021 - 09:54 AM, said:

You do realize that any player can do this for literally any mech they 'don't have experience with', that a 2-kill 570 damage game can be achieved in any mech, that you are disregarding all metrics and statistics relating to the relative effectiveness of the four weight classes, and that your post proves absolutely nothing?

Yeah, yeah. I don't know exact number, but 1% of 2300 is how many? 23 matches? Too few to cherry pick from.

[Captain Caveman DE]

MrMadguy, on 11 June 2021 - 09:06 AM, said:

Do you really think it's that hard? Please note, that it's trial 'Mech and I have 0 Light piloting experience.

don't get me wrong and srsly no offense meant in any way
but
..that is clearly more a screenshot that shows lights NOT being OP, right?


and while we're on it: I'm sure you'll agree that getting those numbers in a heavy or assault is A LOT
easier and is a lot less work, right?

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 11 June 2021 - 10:05 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Nightbird, on 11 June 2021 - 09:10 AM, said:

My observations is that the less one plays lights, the more one complains about lights lol.

I mean, sure.

It's also generally agreed (and repeated ad nauseum in this thread) that Lights are much stronger in lower tiers where reduced ability to aim or position well disproportionately benefits them.

That creates an interesting balance problem, though. How do you buff Lights to be more competitive in Tier 1 without breaking Tier 5?

Personally, I feel like the first step on the road to getting there has to be removing size/speed from the equation. Any time Lights' defensive ability is entirely dependent on their opponents' fine motor skills, they're going to be impossible to balance across tiers.

In a perfect world where I could wave a magic wand, I'd scale them up to at least Vulcan size, buff their armor significantly with quirks, and give them some unique weapons or abilities to make them more competitive in combat (because objectives are worthless without respawns). Things like an Omni-Directional Boost Dash are standard fare for "Light" classes in similar games, but I see that fitting in with MWO about as well as Andre the Giant in a clown car.

uLs/uPLs are strong, but they're faction-specific and most chassis don't have the hardpoints to take advantage of them. We could talk about giving Lights advanced sensor suites (eg Active Radar), but let's be real Information Warfare is a joke.

The most realistically feasible solution I can think of that doesn't stray too far from the BattleTech setting would be to significantly bloat hardpoints for Light 'Mechs and implement more weapons of each class (Ballistic, Missile, Energy) similar to uLs which are lightweight, efficient, short range, and strong in huge numbers - effectively making them semi-exclusive to Light 'Mechs.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 11 June 2021 - 10:25 AM.

[w4ldO]

Quote

LIGHTS ARE OP

completely neglecting the risk<->reward balance

in a light you die to the most random bullshi. like whiffed shots that weren't even aimed at you. happily cross over a hill behind your assault line in your 140 kph lambo in the perfect moment to catch two stray gauss rounds? yeah....guess youll be spectating this

[Meep Meep]

MechNexus, on 11 June 2021 - 08:51 AM, said:

Backstab lights are genuinely difficult to play and you're letting your experiences with the good players paint a picture of the archetype as a whole - for every Piranha pilot who can wreak havoc on a team's back lines, there's 5 who get melted instantly.

I think it's probably double or triple that in quick play. It's quite rare to see pir with any meaningful score or kills on the after battle score screen. Plus you just don't get many of them at all nowadays unlike when they first dropped. It's always the stealth flea's that seem to pack in the kills and garner the hate in chat.

[FLG 01]

MrMadguy, on 11 June 2021 - 09:06 AM, said:

Do you really think it's that hard? Please note, that it's trial 'Mech and I have 0 Light piloting experience.

The average match scores of the lights in this game is 159. That is well below the global average.

And that's supposed to be op? How much below the global AMS is not considered op then?

[Duke Falcon]

Lights? Grrrr, little buggers but really good only on maps crowded with obstacles otherwise they die quickly. I rarely pilot lights because a hell hard time to do it. I mean survive the first encounter. Not OP just fast.
Nevertheless try these:
1. SRMs. Like shotguns but in missile form. Area effect caught the buggers and their armour almost goes... Hate because I dislike SRMs but I seen this works rather well...
2. RACs. Yeah, lights eat dirt if met with these since firing continuously and all you need to do is to turn the other directions they circling around you. They would stop, believe me!
3. Heavy lasers. Extreme damage and with 3-4 of them you need just one lucky shot to cripple them. Then, how it were said in Mortal Kombat? Finish him!
4. Use lights, lag behind and counter enemy lights when they show up. You would have the same pros and cons, except skills, so you would see how OPs are lights are (or not)...

[1453 R]

Vlad Ward, on 11 June 2021 - 10:19 AM, said:

I mean, sure.

It's also generally agreed (and repeated ad nauseum in this thread) that Lights are much stronger in lower tiers where reduced ability to aim or position well disproportionately benefits them.

That creates an interesting balance problem, though. How do you buff Lights to be more competitive in Tier 1 without breaking Tier 5?

Personally, I feel like the first step on the road to getting there has to be removing size/speed from the equation. Any time Lights' defensive ability is entirely dependent on their opponents' fine motor skills, they're going to be impossible to balance across tiers.

In a perfect world where I could wave a magic wand, I'd scale them up to at least Vulcan size, buff their armor significantly with quirks, and give them some unique weapons or abilities to make them more competitive in combat (because objectives are worthless without respawns). Things like an Omni-Directional Boost Dash are standard fare for "Light" classes in similar games, but I see that fitting in with MWO about as well as Andre the Giant in a clown car.

uLs/uPLs are strong, but they're faction-specific and most chassis don't have the hardpoints to take advantage of them. We could talk about giving Lights advanced sensor suites (eg Active Radar), but let's be real Information Warfare is a joke.

The most realistically feasible solution I can think of that doesn't stray too far from the BattleTech setting would be to significantly bloat hardpoints for Light 'Mechs and implement more weapons of each class (Ballistic, Missile, Energy) similar to uLs which are lightweight, efficient, short range, and strong in huge numbers - effectively making them semi-exclusive to Light 'Mechs.

One could theoretically produce a piece of MWO-specific equipment - the LMA, or Light 'Mech Array. In energy or ballistic, possibly missile. Fit an LMA to a light 'Mech's hardpoint and gain two or three 'bonus' hardpoints that can only be used for designated weapons - small/micro lasers, machine guns, SRM-2s or rockets, whatever works out. Make it such that light 'Mechs can choose to invest in the extra hardpoints for light weapons without needing to go captain insaneballs on the regular hardpoints.

Frankly I could see that being a useful solution across the board for small weapons nobody ever uses without egregious hardpoint counts - a Light Weapon Array could boost any 'Mech's ability to carry a large number of small guns. It wouldn't be a great idea for most 'Mechs, and perhaps larger 'Mechs pay a tonnage tax for LWAs, same as jumpy-jets. But it might be a way to reconcile the fact that MWO's hardpoint system sucks at small weapons for most 'Mechs.

As for "make light 'Mechs huge, fat, and better protected than medium 'Mechs"...no, please. I mean, at this point it's obvious that there's not really room for four distinct classes of 'Mech in an online arena shooter, but turning light 'Mechs into tonnage-janked mediums seems like a really bad call. The real answer, so long as we're discussing pie-in-the-sky might-have-beens anyways, is reticle bloom and disabling the ability for 'Mechs to strike with a million weapons all at once on the exact same pixel. Then light 'Mechs' reduced physical size allows them to duck fire better and spread fire more effectively, making better use of their armor, while the overall reduction in perfectly-placed damage fixes at least half of the game's other balance woes.

But...well. Pies, sky, and all of that. Hardly any use talking about solutions that will never come.

[Nerokar]

MrMadguy, on 11 June 2021 - 09:06 AM, said:

Do you really think it's that hard? Please note, that it's trial 'Mech and I have 0 Light piloting experience.

All i see is nice teamwork. And a stomp.

Oh wait. If I Look the second time at this one sided match i See 75 percent dead Lights at your Team and 0 percent dead mediums, heavies and assaults.
Despite beeing stomped the reds did kinda OK damage. They actually hit their targets enough to kill more blues.
What dies it mean? Your team simply traded better.

It's Not like they shot ground trying to kill those OP light.... And löst because of this.

[Vlad Ward]

1453 R, on 11 June 2021 - 11:38 AM, said:

One could theoretically produce a piece of MWO-specific equipment - the LMA, or Light 'Mech Array. In energy or ballistic, possibly missile. Fit an LMA to a light 'Mech's hardpoint and gain two or three 'bonus' hardpoints that can only be used for designated weapons - small/micro lasers, machine guns, SRM-2s or rockets, whatever works out. Make it such that light 'Mechs can choose to invest in the extra hardpoints for light weapons without needing to go captain insaneballs on the regular hardpoints.

Frankly I could see that being a useful solution across the board for small weapons nobody ever uses without egregious hardpoint counts - a Light Weapon Array could boost any 'Mech's ability to carry a large number of small guns. It wouldn't be a great idea for most 'Mechs, and perhaps larger 'Mechs pay a tonnage tax for LWAs, same as jumpy-jets. But it might be a way to reconcile the fact that MWO's hardpoint system sucks at small weapons for most 'Mechs.

As for "make light 'Mechs huge, fat, and better protected than medium 'Mechs"...no, please. I mean, at this point it's obvious that there's not really room for four distinct classes of 'Mech in an online arena shooter, but turning light 'Mechs into tonnage-janked mediums seems like a really bad call. The real answer, so long as we're discussing pie-in-the-sky might-have-beens anyways, is reticle bloom and disabling the ability for 'Mechs to strike with a million weapons all at once on the exact same pixel. Then light 'Mechs' reduced physical size allows them to duck fire better and spread fire more effectively, making better use of their armor, while the overall reduction in perfectly-placed damage fixes at least half of the game's other balance woes.

But...well. Pies, sky, and all of that. Hardly any use talking about solutions that will never come.

My pie in the sky has always been a hybrid bloom model where each weapon had its own reticle, each reticle was precise and 100% accurate, but the reticles themselves drifted and displayed all of the typical characteristics of bloom. It would be predictable and have a high skill ceiling while still mitigating PPFLD.

I don't think having lights be hard to hit because they're just so tiny is sustainable. The Light pilot doesn't have to put any effort into being tiny. Their defensive ability is determined almost entirely by their opponent. That's just not good game design and makes balancing across tiers impossible.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 11 June 2021 - 01:15 PM.

[1453 R]

That's fair.

But making light 'Mechs the size of mediums with the armor/defensive values of mediums and the mobility profiles of mediums, just with a higher top speed and arbitrarily low weight limits, also feels like an exceptionally bad solution. Why even bother at that point? There's no factual difference between a "light 'Mech" and a fast medium like the Black Lanner at that point. Both have the same groundspeed, the same mobility (exempting equipment like MASC), the same silhouette, the same payload tonnage...there's no freaking difference between a medium and a light anymore within the same movement profile. You're effectively removing light 'Mechs from the game and forcibly reassigning any light 'Mechs we do have into the medium weight class.

In a vacuum? Sure, that's Better Game Design. But as Piranha has learned over and over, this is BattleTech. You don't get to make certain decisions, and eliminating an entire category of 'Mechs outright is one of them. I'm down for mucking with the formula as much as we need to in order to try and fix things, I hate sacred cows and try to reduce them as much as I can...but "Light 'Mechs existing" is one of those sacred cows. Especially after Piranha's spent ten years selling the damn things to people.

[Vlad Ward]

I feel like we're being influenced a bit by inertia. I'm not exactly a Canon Master, but from what I recall a Canon Atlas wasn't 2-3 times the size of a Spider. Assault 'Mechs are heavier than Lights, not necessarily taller or wider. PGI took a bunch of artistic license scaling these things and that scale has changed a couple times over the years. It's already well accepted that Assaults and Heavies need to be a lot smaller than they are right now.

Lights getting a little bigger to make them manageable for pilots in Tier 5 isn't going to kill the class. If anything, going the hardpoint bloat + micro weapon route could make them the most unique class in the game.

[Darian DelFord]

Vlad Ward, on 11 June 2021 - 01:49 PM, said:

Lights getting a little bigger to make them manageable for pilots in Tier 5 isn't going to kill the class. If anything, going the hardpoint bloat + micro weapon route could make them the most unique class in the game.

That already happened, and it gutted all but a very select few lights and made them damn near unplayable. I mean how often do you seriously see a 35 tonner in game.

[1453 R]

Canonically, all 'Mechs are the same 8 to 15 or so meters in height, yes.

This has never made the faintest lick of sense, given that all BattleMechs are made out of more-or-less the same basic components. If a Commando is as tall as an Atlas and as wide as an Atlas, and it's made of all the same stuff as an Atlas - its structure, armor, engine, and other internal components are all made of the same physical materials - where the hell did those extra seventy-five tons from the Fatlas go on the Commando?

Making all 'Mechs the same size and giving them all the same mobility profile, so an Atlas is every last inch as maneuverable as a Commando save for top speed, is...honestly a fantastic way to ensure nobody ever plays anything but assault 'Mechs again. It's also a great way to ensure that nothing in the game feels like its own unique weight class anymore - everything is just a ******** assault 'Mech with a meaningless increase in groundspeed. Especially if lights and mediums both have the exact same overall durability. Why would anyone ever want to pilot anything but the thiccest, gunniest 'Mech they could if you could have all the overwhelming firepower and extensive armor of an assault 'Mech without actually being any less agile than anyone else?

Light 'Mechs need to feel like light 'Mechs. That includes not being as overwhelmingly huge as your Fatlai or your Fatnirs or your Fattlemasters - or even your Statue of Liberty-sized Shadow Hawks or wider-than-Hawaii Centurions.

Edited by 1453 R, 11 June 2021 - 02:01 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

1453 R, on 11 June 2021 - 01:59 PM, said:

Light 'Mechs need to feel like light 'Mechs. That includes not being as overwhelmingly huge as your Fatlai or your Fatnirs or your Fattlemasters - or even your Statue of Liberty-sized Shadow Hawks or wider-than-Hawaii Centurions.

Okay, I mean, all of this is fine, as long as they're big enough to be hit by people in Tier 5. I don't really care all that much. Scale the whole game up if it makes people feel better. The problem is the current state where they were scaled down to the point where people with below average fps aim need streaks to hit them because PGI thought making them hard to hit was a totally fine and good balance measure.

[1453 R]

Light 'Mechs are supposed to be hard to hit. Harebrained Schemes' BattleTech, i.e. the best adaptation of the tabletop material to a video game by a country mile, specifically introduced "Evasion" as a mechanic to simulate lighter, faster 'Mechs using dem madd jukes to duck return fire. The tabletop game imposes penalties on shots for moving targets - both incoming shots and outgoing shots. Get your light or fast heavy moving at maximum speed and not only is it particularly difficult to lay heavy fire on, but the pilot doing the running won't be hitting **** unless the Force is with him.

In a real-time shooter game, that translates as a light 'Mech being smaller, faster, and more agile than The Fatness. The issue is that MWO's literally magical BattleMech targeting systems means a crack shot can easily bypass all of that and mollycobble anything she damn well pleases - light 'Mechs, specific shoulders at twelve hundred meters, whichever. Notice that head hitboxes had to be made so tiny, and so discrete/non-obvious, that the only way to score a headcap in MWO is to have prior experience knowing exactly which single window of the 'head' counts as Head Hitbox, and then hammer it at close range from the direct front while the target is shut down. Because anything less would result in all twelve 'Mechs on the losing team dying to headchop within a few seconds of being spotted, and the last surviving member of whichever team won being the guy who poked his noodle last.

Nah. Making everything the same size isn't a fix. Not without reintroducing weapon imprecision.

[Vlad Ward]

Wait, so you want everyone to have the same problems Tier 5 has with Lights? That's an interesting take, I suppose.

[1453 R]

Yes, I absolutely want everybody to have trouble hitting a juking, dodging, madly evading light 'Mech. Because the alternative of "make light 'Mechs twice as big and half as agile so anyone can hit them at any distance without any effort whatsoever no matter what the light 'Mech does to avoid it, but in return give them twice as much armor and then let them boat a ton of lightweight dagger-range weapons" not only eliminates "light 'mech" as a class of BattleMech, it completely ignores the subclassification of "Bigger Stick" light 'Mechs such as the Panther, Wolfhound, UrbanMech, or other machines designed to be a nimble, maneuverable user of a single large weapon.

You're effectively trying to turn every last single light 'Mech in the game into a Shadow Hawk with Piranha hardpoints and a higher groundspeed it can't make effective use of because it's taller than Godzilla and humanity has not yet built the cosmic megastructures that would be required for the damned thing to Take Cover(C). Does that really sound okay, or fun? For every last single light 'Mech in the game to have the exact same form, role, and armament?

[Vlad Ward]

It sounds better balanced. But like, if you really want "dodge tanking" to be a thing that can be your opinion, man. Dodge tanking doesn't bother me at all because I can click on robots pretty well on a relative scale. It just means Lights will always either be crap in T1 or OP in Tier 5. That's not fun for someone.

Edit: no amount of bloom will make D A T A equally likely to hit a Light as someone in T5. None. It will always be relative. So long it's relative, the balance will always be skewed.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 11 June 2021 - 02:37 PM.

[1453 R]

Okay. Different tack.

Who would pilot light 'Mechs under your proposed rules, Vlad? Again, remember:

1.) ALL BattleMechs, regardless of weight class, have the exact same mobility profile, short random quirks or skill point allocation. A base, pre-quirk Atlas and a base, pre-quirk Flea have completely identical mobility profiles. They turn, accelerate, decelerate, and jump (provided either 'Mech could jump, anyways) at the exact same rates. The ONLY difference allowed is that the Flea's top speed is higher than the Atlas's, though since the two 'Mechs have identical acceleration the Flea takes much longer to reach that speed.

2.) Light 'mechs are allowed to boat small lasers, micro lasers, and machine guns at any quantity they wish within their tonnage/free space limits, but have effectively zero hard points for other weapon types.

3.) Light 'Mechs are granted quirks that give them the exact same overall armor protection of medium or smaller heavy 'Mechs, to "compensate" for the fact that light 'Mechs will now suffer full damage from 100% of all incoming enemy fire, since it's been made illegal/impossible to avoid any shot anyone fires.

4.) Despite being the size of medium or heavy 'Mechs, and having the same mobility profiles as assault 'Mechs, light 'Mechs do not get a single kilogram of extra weight or gear. They still weight 20 to 35 tons and may only use roughly four to eight of those tons on armaments, which they must close to less than 200 meters to use effectively whilst having the exact same mobility as the assault 'Mechs they are technically supposed to be a 'counterplay' to.

Assuming these are the case...who, in their right mind, would ever pilot a light 'Mech, ever again?

Edited by 1453 R, 11 June 2021 - 03:06 PM.