619 replies to this topic

[ThreeStooges]

Khobai, on 30 June 2021 - 08:09 AM, said:

The problem is thats not battletech.

a 20 ton mech is not supposed to be equal to a 100 ton mech in combat.

the only way to make light mechs feel like their battletech counterparts is to introduce roles for them besides combat.

Exaclty what "roles?" There is absolutely no reason for scouts,sniper, artillery, fire support, field repair or any other "role" in this game. It is merely a robot shoot robot game. It's not Battletech;it is a very poor Mech warrior wantabe. Events have always rewarded damage for than any thing else. Game modes specifically have kill all enimes as the objective except for con-crap and incursion but both modes play exactly like skirmish as it is far easier to just kill the opfor then do the puny base or cap.

Have you ever just assaulted the base and done nothing else? I have. Even with that technical win you still get crap. If you had just killed and shot the enemy then assaulted base you'd have made bank.

Tell me why I should risk my light to "scout" when I know that for the 14285789 time on solaris city the fight will be in the d4-5 grind as both teams just lemming to the center. Con-crap is the only game mode you it is possible to just cap and win the match in minutes while every one lemmings to theta you just have to get three of the other caps and ignore theta completely.

How do your imaginary "roles" make my light op to get back on topic? Does my raven's +100 sensors make it godly? you know what makes my light op? A smart team that shoots at the enemy I have targeted and have spamed enemy here in the com wheel for the third time. What else makes my mech godly? Bap and Tag when I use a lrm.

[pattonesque]

there is some value to identifying enemy positions -- it's not like you're doing long-range recon or anything but a good light can get a lot of info that even a random pubbie team can make use of

[1453 R]

Anyone who says "light 'mechs shouldn't be good at fighting, they should have other roles instead!" is allowed to hold that opinion if and only if they're prepared to add a "Quartermaster" role to MWO, where they can 'play' by balancing accounts and doing logistics for a random selection of twelve players, ensuring that each MechWarrior has adequate food supplies, that the dropship is supplied with basic hygiene products, that the maintechs have a decent supply of spare hardware...

Doesn't sound fun? Doesn't sound cool? Doesn't sound like an Authentic Robit-Shooting Experience™?

Then stop [redacted] telling light players they're not allowed to shoot robits and have to be your personal camera drones instead, [redacted]

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 30 June 2021 - 08:58 PM.

[pbiggz]

1453 R, on 30 June 2021 - 11:48 AM, said:

Anyone who says "light 'mechs shouldn't be good at fighting, they should have other roles instead!" is allowed to hold that opinion if and only if they're prepared to add a "Quartermaster" role to MWO, where they can 'play' by balancing accounts and doing logistics for a random selection of twelve players, ensuring that each MechWarrior has adequate food supplies, that the dropship is supplied with basic hygiene products, that the maintechs have a decent supply of spare hardware...

Doesn't sound fun? Doesn't sound cool? Doesn't sound like an Authentic Robit-Shooting Experience™?

Then stop [redacted] telling light players they're not allowed to shoot robits and have to be your personal camera drones instead, [redacted]

Yo I know this was supposed to be an extreme hyperbolic example of what MWO isn't but that sounds kinda ******' cool alright.

But the point is clear, this game is not a neo-feudal mad max in space with giant robots RPG game. It's a real time competitive PVP shooter. What light mechs do on the tabletop or in your favourite battletech fiction, really doesn't matter. It never did. These things need to be made fun to play now and if some of you don't understand how to counter things that move fast, that's your own fault. You can't take away someone else's playstyle because you can't aim. That's not a reasonable or defensible position to take.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 30 June 2021 - 08:57 PM.
quote cleanup

[1453 R]

Don't get me wrong, there's absolutely a game to be had in having to do logistics for your mercenary company. The "Mercenaries" versions of past (non-5) MechWarrior games were so beloved kinda specifically because they introduced some logistics elements - enough to keep you on your toes and let you sink into the fantasy of being a mercenary commander.

But this is not any of those games. This game is Smash Brothers with robits. All the robits in it need to be able to smash. They smash in different ways, they smash in different styles. They smash in a variety of poorly-conceived paint schemes and with a profusion of terrible Mad Max Borderlands-bandit-hobo bolt-ons. They smash across a variety of maps, most of them mediocre, half of them "Classic" maps that have no gorram business still being in the rotation.

But one way or another, they all smash. Tall and short, long and blunt, fat and scant, they all smash. Anyone who says any different is [redacted]. 'Role Warfare' never existed as anything but the empty words of a developer unequal to their own rhetoric, and if you haven't abandoned it as pointless by now...well.[redacted]

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 30 June 2021 - 08:56 PM.

[Dogstar]

1453 R, on 30 June 2021 - 12:04 PM, said:

They smash in a variety of poorly-conceived paint schemes and with a profusion of terrible Mad Max Borderlands-bandit-hobo bolt-ons.

Brilliant! That's made my day.

Edited by Dogstar, 01 July 2021 - 12:02 AM.

[Khobai]

ThreeStooges, on 30 June 2021 - 10:44 AM, said:

Exaclty what "roles?"

information warfare, command, support fire (longtom/arrowIV/mechmortars,etc...). brawler, striker, harasser, skirmisher, etc... could all be different roles with their own playstyles and unique skill trees.

role warfare was never properly developed in MWO and thats always been part of the problem.

But other battletech games have succeeded at role warfare. The battletech tactical game by HBS for example has a decently implemented role warfare system. theres still reasons to use lights and mediums even though theyre strictly inferior to heavies and assaults at combat.

So its not because it cant be done. PGI unfortunately never did anything with role warfare even though they stated it was one of their four pillars of the game.

1453 R, on 30 June 2021 - 12:04 PM, said:

Anyone who says "light 'mechs shouldn't be good at fighting, they should have other roles instead!" is allowed to hold that opinion if and only if they're prepared to add a "Quartermaster" role to MWO,

no ones saying lights should be bad at fighting. just not equal to assaults.

the way MWLL did it for example was the right way of doing it. Mechs were purchased after the game started by your pilot and lights cost less than assaults. So lights were weaker but you could buy more of them for the same price as an assault. there was always a reason to use lights when you couldnt afford anything heavier.

Fortunately MWLL2 is being developed as a mod for MW5 now which is great.

Edited by Khobai, 01 July 2021 - 03:40 AM.

[Castigatus]

That's because this game was never intended to need role warfare beyond some minor scouting mechanics.

Amazingly enough Khobai I actually agree with a point you made a while back when you compared this game to Hawken, because this game is what Hawken is, a team-based Arena shooter.

It's not a recreation of tabletop Battletech, it's not a single-player Mechwarrior game with extra players (if you want that play Mechwarrior 5 because that's basically what it is), it is a team-based arena shooter with game mechanics based on that single underlying premise and using the BattleTech IP. But just because its based on the IP doesn't mean it has to use everything from it and being this type of game also adds certain restrictions. For example, your point about MWLL is somewhat invalidated by the simple fact that there have to be an equal number of mechs on each team, a requirement of being, you guessed it, a team-based arena shooter. If asymmetric team sizes were something the game allowed then you might have had a point, but it doesn't and it never will.

A point I've often seen you and others who agree with you make is that MWO doesn't feel like a battle tech game. Well, I would say that is probably intentional, simply because MWO is not the same type of game as any other existing Battletech game. It's not a mech sim with a story-based campaign (MW5, in fact, most of the previous single player MechWarrior games), and it's not a turn-based or real-time strategy game (Mech Commander 1 and 2, HBS Battletech). You seem to want things from this game that simply aren't necessary for it to be the type of game it is and can't really be done well without altering the basics of how the game works and how it plays. Why should PGI or anyone who took the game over from them change it so drastically just to fit what you want when, from everything I've seen, the vast majority of players, both on the forums and in the game itself, are perfectly happy with the game as it is now?

Edited by Castigatus, 01 July 2021 - 04:22 AM.

[Dogstar]

Castigatus, on 01 July 2021 - 04:20 AM, said:

the vast majority of players, both on the forums and in the game itself, are perfectly happy with the game as it is now?

I think a lot of players, while happy with the way it is now, would also welcome some changes. Personally I'd like to see some new game mode like the funny thing Fortnite and a few other games do with their shrinking playable zone maps. Even bringing back the old escort mode, while it was annoying and kind of crap, would at least make some difference.

Staying on topic, if people are so opposed to buffing lights performance, how do they feel about buffing Light mechs income to compensate for their lower average PSR scores?

MC and XP income can be altered with quirks, we saw that recently when all hero mechs got buffed to +50% income. I think that a flat 20% bonus to MC and XP rewards would make lights much more rewarding to play and easier to skill up. That bonus would increase hero and champion mechs to 50% MC/XP respectively making them even more desirable.

Even medium mechs could get a bit of an income bonus, say 10%, to reflect their slightly lower average PSR too.

Edited by Dogstar, 01 July 2021 - 08:15 AM.

[PocketYoda]

When something is broken its not out played..

[Khobai]

Castigatus, on 01 July 2021 - 04:20 AM, said:

That's because this game was never intended to need role warfare beyond some minor scouting mechanics.

Thats not entirely true. They actually had role warfare planned out. They had some major scouting mechanics like multitargeting and spoofing fake sensor contacts. There was also a whole command role that was planned.

https://mwomercs.com...-3-role-warfare

https://mwomercs.com...le-warfare-cont

Edited by Khobai, 02 July 2021 - 06:04 AM.

[Castigatus]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 05:47 AM, said:

Thats not entirely true. They actually had role warfare planned out. They had some major scouting mechanics like multitargeting and spoofing fake sensor contacts. There was also a whole command role that was planned.

https://mwomercs.com...-3-role-warfare

https://mwomercs.com...le-warfare-cont

And how many of those mechanics actually made it into the game?

I'll give you a clue, the answer is none.

However, I will admit to a poor choice of words there, perhaps it would have been better to say that the development of role warfare never happened rather than never being intended. But that doesn't change the rest of my post at all.

Edited by Castigatus, 02 July 2021 - 06:41 AM.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Quote

But other battletech games have succeeded at role warfare. The battletech tactical game by HBS for example has a decently implemented role warfare system. theres still reasons to use lights and mediums even though theyre strictly inferior to heavies and assaults at combat.

In the base game? No there isn't because you lose dodge as enemy shoots you so lance compositions that consist of a lot of range+spotter doesn't really pan out. The game always boils down to bringing the biggest stuff and stomping.

[Khobai]

Monke-, on 02 July 2021 - 06:44 AM, said:

In the base game? No there isn't because you lose dodge as enemy shoots you so lance compositions that consist of a lot of range+spotter doesn't really pan out. The game always boils down to bringing the biggest stuff and stomping.

I meant more in the multiplayer

obviously the single player favors taking 4 assaults every time because theres no droptonnage limit although one of the DLCs did add mission types where you have to take lights and mediums.

[1453 R]

I will point out that even in HBS' game, (certain) light 'Mechs could work as viable combatants even in the late game. I had knife-fighting Firestarters I often took on missions even in the late game to exploit initiative, jump on vulnerable backs, or to handle issues that were best handle by a fleet, nimble lightweight combatant. In more than one mission I had my Firestarter dive towards enemy installations to silence long-range turrets while my main force dealt with enemy mobile assets in the scrum. The right actuators meant Firestarters took no damage from DFA and could deal very nice damage with a support weapon-bolstered punch, especially to enemy backsides. Some mediums and most heavies were also still plenty viable later on if you were canny, though admittedly because the enemy A.I. was more foxable than it should be as much as anything else.

Regardless, HBS' game did indeed do a better job than MWO has of differentiating between roles. It's also easier for HBS to do so given the type of game HBS' BattleTech is, but they did things MWO was perfectly capable of doing as well, such as giving light 'Mechs both increased detection ranges and smaller detection signatures. Plenty of ideas to be mined there...if PGI cared, that is.

[Storming Angel]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 08:06 AM, said:

I meant more in the multiplayer

obviously the single player favors taking 4 assaults every time because theres no droptonnage limit although one of the DLCs did add mission types where you have to take lights and mediums.

Problem is, this would of required PGI to actually plan the game out properly and not rush for it a quick amount of dosh as they clearly did (same with this.) its why their mech games are pretty bare bones, atlhough barely functional which is sad, as both games demonstrated that they have massive amounts of potential.

[pattonesque]

1453 R, on 02 July 2021 - 08:42 AM, said:

I will point out that even in HBS' game, (certain) light 'Mechs could work as viable combatants even in the late game. I had knife-fighting Firestarters I often took on missions even in the late game to exploit initiative, jump on vulnerable backs, or to handle issues that were best handle by a fleet, nimble lightweight combatant. In more than one mission I had my Firestarter dive towards enemy installations to silence long-range turrets while my main force dealt with enemy mobile assets in the scrum. The right actuators meant Firestarters took no damage from DFA and could deal very nice damage with a support weapon-bolstered punch, especially to enemy backsides. Some mediums and most heavies were also still plenty viable later on if you were canny, though admittedly because the enemy A.I. was more foxable than it should be as much as anything else.

Regardless, HBS' game did indeed do a better job than MWO has of differentiating between roles. It's also easier for HBS to do so given the type of game HBS' BattleTech is, but they did things MWO was perfectly capable of doing as well, such as giving light 'Mechs both increased detection ranges and smaller detection signatures. Plenty of ideas to be mined there...if PGI cared, that is.

I would like a patch so light mechs in HBS Battletech HAVE to stand still so I can hit them

[Alex Morgaine]

Lockheed_, on 27 June 2021 - 11:52 PM, said:

I just picture a lonely Rifleman being circled by 4 Spirit Bears

Safe word, please?

[Cerebus23]

between ewar and speed tanking minis end up broke as all hell,.

not the best shooter out there but my beam supernova blasted a ubermech dozens of times and while not landing every second of every blast i landed a good bit for a lumbering assault that their team dragged a mini nightmare to and complains i cant shoot it to save me life and how hes overheating nm how many times i was overheating trying to pressure him.


i died my teamate did before i did and i think noone ever killed that uber, the mini armies are a i give up opponent just about for most pugs.

[Castigatus]

So why are you so insistent they make changes to light mechs based on compensating for not being able to do things that

A )never made it into the game in the first place
and
B ) are never going to be added to the game

when those mechs are already provably effective combatants using the setups they have now.

Edited by Castigatus, 03 July 2021 - 01:11 AM.