151 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

As title says... Lets debate the mobilty pass here, shall we?

Values are HERE


From the other thread, I'll kick off.

Elizander, on 21 June 2021 - 06:10 PM, said:

I wanted a little bit more turn rate from the Marauder IICs and some of the other mechs in general. As it stands, the mechs I'm looking at got around a 12% boost which is like getting 2 free Anchor Turn nodes in the current patch. I am hoping that the torso yaw and twist speed adjustments will make up for this. The turn rate increase on its own will still not allow most big mechs to keep up with circle strafing to any reliable degree. At the end of the day, it's all about whether a light mech can stay behind you 100% of the time or not.

I don't feel like they went far enough with acceleration for the larger mechs.I don't see why a 100 tonner should have less than half the acceleration of an 85 ton mech or half the acceleration of 90-95 ton mechs. These big mechs don't get 100% more firepower. The discrepancy is still too huge.

These are just my initial opinions, but the base stat gap is too large and using % increases isn't enough.

I have a question...

Back in 2017 did you have these complaints? If no - why now? I'd go back and check myself bit short on time the next couple days

(Remembering: values are basically going back to what they should have been as part of engine de-sync).

Back when mobilty was good, which is where the numbers are going - there was nowhere near the level of complaints, despite more players, about mech mobilty.

---------------------------

I really don't understand why there are a lot of "the values are no good", if a few years ago when the values were there - there wasn't the level of issue with them.

So why now, suddenly, is there issues? Is it just for the sake of disagreement?

Edited by justcallme A S H, 21 June 2021 - 06:59 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Just a note, can you link the numbers in your OP Ash, so lazy folk like me ain't got to go to anohter thread?

[justcallme A S H]

Fair point - Edited/Done!

[JediPanther]

I'm curious as to only the IS Jenners. The other thread shows the k,f,d,s and d(f) got nothing yet you said they got mobility buff and I'm guessing alluding to the 14-to-24 arm armor "buff" of the prior patch How about a break down on the Jenners for all the former Jenner pilots as to why only Oxide got a new buff?

With the Jenners still having their biggest nerf in RE-scale the arm buff only slightly helped them. Do you have a break down of IS Jenner use by variant? My break down would be:

1. Oxide. THE GOOD jenner. 30% bonus pay.
2. F as it is the trial thus most used.
3. F (c) xp bonus why else get it?
4. D it has double the m slot for more lrm 5 or srm 4 damage. ooh boy.
5. D (Sarah) It was for a worthy cause but still just a D.
6. K the participation award jenner.

[1453 R]

To be fair, Ash - whether or not those values were fair in 2017 doesn't really seem critical to Elizander's argument. I'm not deeply conversant with the numbers, but I could see why someone would ask why gaining fifteen tons shouldl be worth losing over half of one's agility. If the hundred-tonners all had the same five-to-ten-extra-tons-of-living the Fatlas does that'd be one thing, but a Blood Asp can carry just as much hellacious firepower as an Annihilator while moving at twice the speed with significantly better agility, without really losing much in the way of defensive armor/structure quirks. Yes, that's comparing a Clan 'Mech to a Sphere one, but inter-base balance is supposed to be one of the goals, ne? The Annihilator should be, in its own way, equivalent to the Asp but I can't really fathom a reason beyond fanboyism or a tech bias why anyone would take the Annihilator over the Asp.

Judging just by numbers, mind - I'm aware the top-end players go by different metrics, but I'll admit to being able to see where Elizander's argument is coming from. And this from someone who actually believes that a well-fitted, high-speed twigweight being piloted properly should absolutely be able to avoid an assault 'Mech's frontal firing arc 100% of the time. Note, this is specifically twigweights like the Flea or Commando, but still. Light 'Mechs are erased from existence by one single hit from most assault 'Mechs - the fatbros should need to work for that hit. Nevertheless, it does feel like losing the level of agility Elizander is talking about may be excessive for hundred-tonners.

I dunno, though. I'm just a T5 scrubmonkey with a brain but no execution who likes to post sometimes.

[Navid A1]

JediPanther, on 21 June 2021 - 07:00 PM, said:

I'm curious as to only the IS Jenners. The other thread shows the k,f,d,s and d(f) got nothing yet you said they got mobility buff and I'm guessing alluding to the 14-to-24 arm armor "buff" of the prior patch How about a break down on the Jenners for all the former Jenner pilots as to why only Oxide got a new buff?

With the Jenners still having their biggest nerf in RE-scale the arm buff only slightly helped them. Do you have a break down of IS Jenner use by variant? My break down would be:

1. Oxide. THE GOOD jenner. 30% bonus pay.
2. F as it is the trial thus most used.
3. F (c) xp bonus why else get it?
4. D it has double the m slot for more lrm 5 or srm 4 damage. ooh boy.
5. D (Sarah) It was for a worthy cause but still just a D.
6. K the participation award jenner.

Something tells me you are forgetting future quirks.

Agility for Jenners are already cranked up to the roof. More quirk boosts will hit the weaker Jenners to bring them up.

[justcallme A S H]

1453 R, on 21 June 2021 - 07:12 PM, said:

To be fair, Ash - whether or not those values were fair in 2017 doesn't really seem critical to Elizander's argument. I'm not deeply conversant with the numbers, but I could see why someone would ask why gaining fifteen tons shouldl be worth losing over half of one's agility.

I mean it does if you are going to use the standpoint as noted:

Quote

At the end of the day, it's all about whether a light mech can stay behind you 100% of the time or not.

For some big assaults with a metric tonne of Foo they bring to the table, a good light will be able to stand behind them most of the time. Same as a good assault can delete/maim them in a single shot from the front. 3D chess anyone?

There has to be give and take.

Also a side point - many Assaults are getting more pitch than they ever had. So there is a lot in the argument I'm just not seing as reasonable on a comparison basis to 2017. A lot of the commentary of late, did not exist then.

Why?

1453 R, on 21 June 2021 - 07:12 PM, said:

Spoiler

If the hundred-tonners all had the same five-to-ten-extra-tons-of-living the Fatlas does that'd be one thing, but a Blood Asp can carry just as much hellacious firepower as an Annihilator while moving at twice the speed with significantly better agility, without really losing much in the way of defensive armor/structure quirks. Yes, that's comparing a Clan 'Mech to a Sphere one, but inter-base balance is supposed to be one of the goals, ne? The Annihilator should be, in its own way, equivalent to the Asp but I can't really fathom a reason beyond fanboyism or a tech bias why anyone would take the Annihilator over the Asp.

The BASP can carry nowhere near the Foo that Anni can though? Clan Omni with a locked engine vs a 100T Assault with great hitboxes and survival quirks.

You'd compare Anni to DWF before comparing BASP to Anni. So I'm not seeing that part of the argument.

JediPanther, on 21 June 2021 - 07:00 PM, said:

I'm curious as to only the IS Jenners. The other thread shows the k,f,d,s and d(f) got nothing yet you said they got mobility buff and I'm guessing alluding to the 14-to-24 arm armor "buff" of the prior patch How about a break down on the Jenners for all the former Jenner pilots as to why only Oxide got a new buff?

Which 35T has better mobilty than the Jenner? Could you show me please?

Jenner already have mobilty cranked as Navid noted. It's issue is not mobilty, it's issue is rescale like some other mechs (predominately 35T lights).

Some mechs mobilty was needed. Some is quirks are needed and some need rescale.

As has been stated many many times - it is not as simple as a "one patch fixes all" because the issues are far more involved than that.

If you expected the Jenner to get even MORE mobilty and that would make it good, I think you're kinda not really understanding what the issue with the Jenner actually is.

[Stonefalcon]

A +50% speed boost on the Annihilator would be nice

[Y E O N N E]

I play the Nightstar and Marauder II pretty frequently, and I am all but certain both are undercooked. They have a lot of mass above the cockpit and/or weapons, so they will remain mediocre for ridge humping if what's shown is all they are getting given experience with other 'Mechs featuring comparable values (i.e. Awesome). The Marauder II can side-peak, particularly with the right side, but the Nightstar has no such option. Both need maximum twisty to protect torsos.

All that to say, plz gib moar accel/decel to both, and more turn/yaw rate especially to the Marauder II (except the 4HP).

P.S. The MAD-IIC-B has some pretty underwhelming hardpoints for its class and could probably stand to operate closer to the similar 75T MAD-5D than to its 85T siblings.

[Elizander]

The point of these patches is to improve on the gameplay. To make 100 tonners not feel like slugs and to not make 50 tonners feel like they have broken breaks. Whatever the values were in 2017 are irrelevant if the goal right now is to make the game feel better across the board.

Did I miss a memo where things can't be improved past 2017? Or is this entire push to change the game just to reset everything back to the way it was?

I'm not asking that assault mechs turn on a dime and track lights 100%, but I'd like to have them be able to have a chance to shoot a light stinging their back maybe once out of the 3-4 times the light shoots them in the back instead of it being no chance at all. If the turn rates are too slow, a light pilot can adjust and the assault will never see them.

I'm very well aware that the patch isn't out yet. I believe I specifically stated that I was hoping adjustments to torso movement will compensate for the low numbers in turn rate. I've used mechs with 30% anchor turn and just doing basic math on the base rates I know it's not enough to make a difference, but I did acknowledge that those who want more turn rate can spend for less nodes in the agility tree to achieve the old values with max anchor turn.

Edited by Elizander, 21 June 2021 - 08:27 PM.

[Heavy Money]

It looks like the Hellbringer, Ebon Jaguar, and Sunspider have been brought to about the same agility levels as the Timberwolf. All of these had superior agility to the Timberwolf before iirc, but now they are the same. This reduces the reason to run these other mechs over just doing the same loadouts on the TBR. There is some variation in hardpoints and mount locations, but overall the reason to use these other mechs has been reduced, and will even more once the TBR-BH comes with its ECM.

I'm not necessarily saying its wrong for them to have the same agility overall (they have the same speed afterall) but perhaps these other mechs should get some quirks to help them be more distinctive from the TBR and each other.

[w0qj]

Amen

Elizander, on 21 June 2021 - 08:14 PM, said:

The point of these patches is to improve on the gameplay. To make 100 tonners not feel like slugs and to not make 50 tonners feel like they have broken breaks. Whatever the values were in 2017 are irrelevant if the goal right now is to make the game feel better across the board.

Did I miss a memo where things can't be improved past 2017? Or is this entire push to change the game just to reset everything back to the way it was?

I'm not asking that assault mechs turn on a dime and track lights 100%, but I'd like to have them be able to have a chance to shoot a light stinging their back maybe once out of the 3-4 times the light shoots them in the back instead of it being no chance at all. If the turn rates are too slow, a light pilot can adjust and the assault will never see them.

[w0qj]

1. Fully agree!
Cannot wait to see what's in store for the Cauldron Quirk Pass.

2. Perhaps MWO/PGI should start indication on target date for mech rescaling? (Q3? Q4? 1st Half of 2022 ?)
So far only Cauldron had said MWO/PGI would make a mech rescaling later on... we have yet to hear from MWO/PGI directly?

Heavy Money, on 21 June 2021 - 08:18 PM, said:

It looks like the Hellbringer, Ebon Jaguar, and Sunspider have been brought to about the same agility levels as the Timberwolf. All of these had superior agility to the Timberwolf before iirc, but now they are the same. This reduces the reason to run these other mechs over just doing the same loadouts on the TBR. There is some variation in hardpoints and mount locations, but overall the reason to use these other mechs has been reduced, and will even more once the TBR-BH comes with its ECM.

I'm not necessarily saying its wrong for them to have the same agility overall (they have the same speed afterall) but perhaps these other mechs should get some quirks to help them be more distinctive from the TBR and each other.

Edited by w0qj, 21 June 2021 - 08:53 PM.

[JediPanther]

justcallme A S H, on 21 June 2021 - 07:30 PM, said:

I mean it does if you are going to use the standpoint as noted:



For some big assaults with a metric tonne of Foo they bring to the table, a good light will be able to stand behind them most of the time. Same as a good assault can delete/maim them in a single shot from the front. 3D chess anyone?

There has to be give and take.

Also a side point - many Assaults are getting more pitch than they ever had. So there is a lot in the argument I'm just not seing as reasonable on a comparison basis to 2017. A lot of the commentary of late, did not exist then.

Why?





The BASP can carry nowhere near the Foo that Anni can though? Clan Omni with a locked engine vs a 100T Assault with great hitboxes and survival quirks.

You'd compare Anni to DWF before comparing BASP to Anni. So I'm not seeing that part of the argument.




Which 35T has better mobilty than the Jenner? Could you show me please?

Jenner already have mobilty cranked as Navid noted. It's issue is not mobilty, it's issue is rescale like some other mechs (predominately 35T lights).

Some mechs mobilty was needed. Some is quirks are needed and some need rescale.

As has been stated many many times - it is not as simple as a "one patch fixes all" because the issues are far more involved than that.

If you expected the Jenner to get even MORE mobilty and that would make it good, I think you're kinda not really understanding what the issue with the Jenner actually is.

I'm not arguing either way for mobility on is jenners. No new mobility and leaving them as-is is fine. The problem is the same one I myself,Darian, and others who use to love the mech have noted and argued against since it first happened. THE FIRST RE-SCALE. That to us has been the worst "nerf" specifically to the is jenners.

To me on a personal level I saw 20ts as just a replacement and cash grab when the lct came into the game. How do replace a 35t mech and get people to pay real money/time/grind more to get a mech 15 tons lighter? Make the 35ts suck more than the 20ts. Making the 35ts bigger sure seems like a good way. As wells as all these "lights op must nerf" threads.

The a copy of the lcts were added because,who knows,muh lore argument? I own no fles yet have the vast majority of lcts as do the is jenners.

I've also argued for the arm armor buff and you can easily find many light threads where I campaigned for more armor since it was a mere two armor difference between the jenners and lcts sans quirks/skill tree. If the only thing that makes lights different from one another ends up being quirks why should light pilots use one variant over another?

We see many complains that a light is op yet the light in question usually ends up being the boating pirs or the stealth capable ecm mechs. As shown in the other light thread out of all 127 light mechs very few are "op." Yet due to their perceived "op" the rest of the lights suffer when pgi blanked bombs the class with changes instead of the specific mech variants. Quirks be damed. All I want is for is jenners to have more armor than a mech 15 tons lighter and to be reverted to pre-re-scale size. Hell remove the skill trees from them for all I care. I'd gladly use a jenner with 2014 stats and size.

[Capt Deadpool]

w0qj, on 21 June 2021 - 08:23 PM, said:

2. Perhaps MWO/PGI should start indication on target date for mech rescaling? (Q3?  Q4?  1st Half of 2022 ?)
So far only Cauldron had said MWO/PGI would make a mech rescaling later on... we have yet to hear from MWO/PGI directly?

This indeed would be lovely, but I am skeptical of them committing to any time-line. I am starting to be of the mind The Cauldron should be quirking mechs based on the assumption a rescale will actually never happen, then if it finally does in a year or 2 or 3, the quirks can be rebalanced accordingly...

Elizander' said:

At the end of the day, it's all about whether a light mech can stay behind you 100% of the time or not.

I really don't want to come across as some elitist here, but...    1. the lights that are capable of such maneuvers already significantly underperform the other weight classes on average as far as damage dealt.    2. An assault player really does not need to be elite in skill to avoid getting their butt munched in the vast majority of scenarios: do not allow yourself to be isolated from your team, learn the quickest routes to the most likely engagement locations on the map, know how to preemptively plan to put your back up to available terrain features to protect yourself the instant you suspect lights are closing, reduce your mouse sens, and communicate with your team.   3. If you are finding yourself frequently getting butt munched, drop in a faster engine or a faster chassis until the requisite assault skills improve and you can keep up with your team, instead of asking for mechs that already do comparatively miniscule damage on average to be afflicted with unneeded agility nerfs. And if you get caught, you get caught; us light pilots get deleted by assaults frequently when we make the tiniest of errors... So frequently, in fact, that it is the least played class: tiny amounts of firepower and a tiny margin of error.

I know lots of players of all skill levels are attracted to dropping in 'the biggest, baddest, most fire-power-est mechs', but with great power comes great responsibility...

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 22 June 2021 - 11:25 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Increasing torso pitch angles is universally good. I’ll be dusting off some sluggish mechs to see how mobility affects them. Beyond that, I reserve judgement for a few days.

[MechB Kotare]

Yes... lets make already agile small mechs like flea piranha and locust even more agile... other than that, i like all proposed changes.

[Ekson Valdez]

I split the discussion about Jumpjets to Lets Debate - The Jumpjet Overhaul

[Dogstar]

I'm happy with the proposed changes as they stand, but I should note that I'm one of those who think that all mechs should be stompy and not nippy, which to my mind is what the debate is all about.

Hill humping assaults and heavies with high mounts should be in danger of a bit of return fire from a skilled target. Making them fast enough to peak and poke without significant danger would really make the game turn into a stale long range snipe fest.

Alos, if this agility pass isn't enough to improve things then people can always push for a second or third pass to make further changes. One really good thing about the Cauldron is that they are willing to listen and willing to try again, unlike PGI who gave up years ago and simply resorted to Chris' dartboard to shake things up, whenever the forum moaning got to be too much

[justcallme A S H]

JediPanther, on 21 June 2021 - 08:42 PM, said:

I'm not arguing either way for mobility on is jenners. No new mobility and leaving them as-is is fine. The problem is the same one I myself,Darian, and others who use to love the mech have noted and argued against since it first happened. THE FIRST RE-SCALE. That to us has been the worst "nerf" specifically to the is jenners.

Firstly you posted asking why the Jenners did not get a mobilty buff yet your next post you are now saying you are not arguing for that.

It's a bit hard to understand your points if you are not consistent in your own words.


The Cauldron has no control over the timeline and resources to make Mech Rescale happen. You surely are well aware of as I know myself (and others) have posted about this multiple times in discussions with you about it.

I really don't know what else to say - everyone gets it - The Jenner needs a diet along with other 35T mechs.

Elizander, on 21 June 2021 - 08:14 PM, said:

Did I miss a memo where things can't be improved past 2017?

Not at all. That point doesn't answer or address my question of 'why now'.

That aside I would implore you to log in and play some games. Seems you haven't really played since the Cauldron patches started (April)

Crank out a few hundred matches in a dozen or so different mechs. See how they feel in-game, that is what the Cauldron intends to do as without a PTS and such sweeping changes, sometimes you just have to play it to see how it fares

Edited by justcallme A S H, 21 June 2021 - 11:43 PM.