151 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Wid1046, on 03 August 2021 - 09:20 AM, said:

While that would be an interesting idea to get data, you'd have to adjust the matchmaker to only match IS with IS and Clan with Clan for the month. Making that change would likely require an engineer and would also increase queue times.

Might be worthwhile for the data, but I doubt that PGI will be able to get an engineer for the test.

Why? That would spoil the entire point of the test - seeing how close (or far) the two tech bases actually are without any quirk slap-patching. The rest of the game post-test wouldn't be purely Sphere vs. Sphere or Clan vs. Clan., why make the test run that way?

Weapons balance is closer to parity than a lot of folks might like to admit - there's plenty of times I've seen pilots of either side carping about the other side's weapons. Secondary/non-weapon tech is not so close, but we don't know how much that affects ordinary gameplay. Is the Clan's lighter, more compact secondary gear adequately compensated for by cooler-running, punchier Sphere weapons and the Sphere's markedly superior (as in actually present) PPFLD weapons? Is it not? Do Sphere DHS need to be better because they're so god damned fat? Are they fine because Sphere stuff is so icy-cold anyways? Is the LFE so inferior to the cXL that it warrants GigaQuirks?

We've had quirks, and big heckin' chonk quirks at that, for so long that they're just assumed as part of balance now. We don't really have the data to know whether they're still mandatory. People say so, but that's because all the current competitive 'Mechs in the game have SuperMegaUltraQuirks - in many cases they're competitive strictly because of the quirk(s), which to me says something about the quirk system more than the base balance beneath it. Some of these Sphere 'Mechs are straight up HeroAca-level god quirk'd; do they need it, or did they just get it to sell 'Mech packs?

We don't really know, because we haven't played a game without quirks in so long. Maybe we should try?

[pbiggz]

1453 R, on 03 August 2021 - 09:38 AM, said:

Why? That would spoil the entire point of the test - seeing how close (or far) the two tech bases actually are without any quirk slap-patching. The rest of the game post-test wouldn't be purely Sphere vs. Sphere or Clan vs. Clan., why make the test run that way?

Weapons balance is closer to parity than a lot of folks might like to admit - there's plenty of times I've seen pilots of either side carping about the other side's weapons. Secondary/non-weapon tech is not so close, but we don't know how much that affects ordinary gameplay. Is the Clan's lighter, more compact secondary gear adequately compensated for by cooler-running, punchier Sphere weapons and the Sphere's markedly superior (as in actually present) PPFLD weapons? Is it not? Do Sphere DHS need to be better because they're so god damned fat? Are they fine because Sphere stuff is so icy-cold anyways? Is the LFE so inferior to the cXL that it warrants GigaQuirks?

We've had quirks, and big heckin' chonk quirks at that, for so long that they're just assumed as part of balance now. We don't really have the data to know whether they're still mandatory. People say so, but that's because all the current competitive 'Mechs in the game have SuperMegaUltraQuirks - in many cases they're competitive strictly because of the quirk(s), which to me says something about the quirk system more than the base balance beneath it. Some of these Sphere 'Mechs are straight up HeroAca-level god quirk'd; do they need it, or did they just get it to sell 'Mech packs?

We don't really know, because we haven't played a game without quirks in so long. Maybe we should try?

Maybe a week long session on the public test servers? That would get lots of data I think.

[1453 R]

The PTS almost never gets any real engagement. Not unless they're previewing/testing new tech on there. Telling people "we'd really like this data, please play what the players will see as a horribly nerfed version of the game on PTS without saving any of their payouts or progress" will work about as well as the PTS ever does. Without some sort of incentive that sticks/applies to their main account, not a chance they'll get the sort of numbers they'd need to make any sort of informed judgment.

[justcallme A S H]

Wid1046, on 03 August 2021 - 07:48 AM, said:

Spoiler

The agility patch benefited assaults more than any other class (which is understandable since their agility was pretty awful). The time required to fully accelerate or fully decelerate is what people feel, not the raw accel/decel numbers. Lights already accelerated up to their max speed pretty quickly, so even a large buff wouldn't have decreased the time required to hit that max speed by much.

Here are some examples of how many seconds time to hit max speed was changed by the mobility patch for some of the most buffed mechs:
FS9 (E,S,A,H,K) 0.73 sec
MLX (all) 0.42 sec
KFX (all) 0.43 sec
RVN-H 0.52 sec

KDK-3 2.64 sec
AS7 (all) 1.14 sec
MCII-2 1.29 sec
CGR-N7 1.09 sec


Just giving a larger raw number accel buff isn't going to mean that the mech will perform better. For example, the SPD-5V had its acceleration increased by a little over 13 kph/s while the Blood Asp had its acceleration buffed by only 3.2 kph/s. The Spider received the larger buff in terms of raw numbers, but only had its time to max speed reduced by 0.17 seconds which is pretty much unnoticeable, while the Blood Asp had its time to max speed reduced by 0.97 seconds. The Spider had its acceleration increased by more than four times what the Blood Asp got buffed by, and yet the Blood Asp had its time to max speed (which is what you actually notice) decreased by more than five times as much.

Very well explained.

The main issue Peppa has is - strong dislike of light mechs. This is therefore tainting all interations being had with the numbers and Peppa sees larger numbers that must mean "more buffs"...

When you actually dig into the numbers and try to understand them it becomes clear that the "omg lights just got giga buffed" is a complete fallacy.

pbiggz, on 03 August 2021 - 09:51 AM, said:

Maybe a week long session on the public test servers? That would get lots of data I think.

PTS ain't ever happening as I understand it.

There is a lot of work to make a PTS happen and - for better or worse - drop it live and see how it plays out adjust as needed.


I mean Cauldron would LOVE a PTS to test out Navid's UAC mechanic change among other larger things however this ain't a perfect world where PGI is infinitely resourced. Things are what they are and that is OK too as long as on tempers their expectation with this in mind

[Nightbird]

Are we still scheduled for a quirk pass this month?

[Scout Derek]

Nightbird, on 03 August 2021 - 07:42 PM, said:

Are we still scheduled for a quirk pass this month?

Should be, don't see why not.

[justcallme A S H]

Nightbird, on 03 August 2021 - 07:42 PM, said:

Are we still scheduled for a quirk pass this month?

Yep! Not all 800+ though.

Some of the worst offenders first / this patch getting attention. Around ~20-25 mechs (and their applicable chassis variants).

Following months will be other mechs and changes etc.

[Nightbird]

justcallme A S H, on 03 August 2021 - 08:23 PM, said:

Yep! Not all 800+ though.

Some of the worst offenders first / this patch getting attention. Around ~20-25 mechs (and their applicable chassis variants).

Following months will be other mechs and changes etc.

OK sounds reasonable, I wouldn't have believed it if you'd said all. Is there any betting pools for a mech getting +800% something quirk by accident?

[Bud Crue]

Nightbird, on 03 August 2021 - 09:19 PM, said:

OK sounds reasonable, I wouldn't have believed it if you'd said all. Is there any betting pools for a mech getting +800% something quirk by accident?

Crap. And here I came in to use your exchange with Ash to once again plead for more buffs to the Quickdraw 4H and 4G, but given the history here (the 1000% cool down error) now it will look like a continuation of your joke.

[Vercors]

1453 R, on 03 August 2021 - 08:21 AM, said:

Doubling the amount of M.A.S.C. in the tanks of any Mk. I M.A.S.C. user is one of those things they have to be super careful about. Giving larger 'Mechs with less jukes more overall use of the system compensates them for the system being less effective, much the same way giving fat 'Mechs more jet burntime compensates them for their jets being overall slower and suckier than smaller, nimbler machines.

i don't ask to double the amount of masc for lights, just few seconds mores will be good. Or at least, reduce the masc for mediums mechs because they are really easy to use in this category without damaging legs. I fell the difference between this two categories in the use of masc is too important when I play a light mech after playing with a medium mech.

[pbiggz]

technopredator, on 04 August 2021 - 07:20 AM, said:

I don't care about the values as they have been perfect for my 25 'mechs, so it's all good I think, no more no less, keep it this way: is agile and realistic. you hit the sweet spot, don't screw this up

There's a quirk rebalance coming. It's good to hear you are having fun, but stopping here would leave the job half done.