151 replies to this topic

[Dauntless Blint]

Davegt27, on 26 June 2021 - 12:08 PM, said:

are you making the same mistake PGI has been making all these years?

are you trying to balance lights against assaults ?

some people will never get into a light no matter what you do
same for other that will never get into an assault

it would be a slippery slope

if your working on making the game more fun then focus on that
JMTCW

This^^^

I mainly play assaults, it happens to be that my favorite assault makes me cringe to play these days. Lights could be the only thing worth playing and I still wouldn't play them, except maybe the odd light sniper. It's like woke politics got into game balance. Equality of outcome sneaking in. How many people didn't come back because PGI tried to make their favorite class weaker or at least watered down it's roll to get equal representation in the statistics. When the designers were trying to push the population around to play different stuff they have no interest in. Get Woke Go Broke?

There's an argument to be made that to play lights well you need a good PC in the least let alone skills and a good connection and the bigger and slower you go the less that matters, that's something they could never try and balance for or are they prejudice to people with low end PC's?

There is a possibility they already killed off the majority of clients who would play their favorite chassis or log off rather than play something else that isn't their style. Is there's an unconscious reason they originally called it the gulag?

The measure of success shouldn't be "have we got about equal amounts of weight classes represented in drops" over "have we got the highest gross player count across all chassis"

There could be a survey done on what is your favorite mech if you could only choose one and then see if it's represented in the drop tables given the assumption that's something they can track.
Then see if it's represented in the statistics, if people aren't playing their favorite chassis PGI has more than likely botched it and are lucky to have those clients at all.

[pattonesque]

Dauntless Blint, on 27 June 2021 - 11:31 AM, said:

I mainly play assaults, it happens to be that my favorite assault makes me cringe to play these days. Lights could be the only thing worth playing and I still wouldn't play them, except maybe the odd light sniper. It's like woke politics got into game balance. Equality of outcome sneaking in. How many people didn't come back because PGI tried to make their favorite class weaker or at least watered down it's roll to get equal representation in the statistics. When the designers were trying to push the population around to play different stuff they have no interest in. Get Woke Go Broke?

lmao what, dude are you OK

[YueFei]

Having a wide spectrum of viable playstyles is just good game design, for multiple reasons:

• For those casual players who might only like one particular playstyle, and will play that predominantly. If that playstyle gets nerfed too hard (remember SRM giganerfed to 1.5 damage/missile), they'll simply quit and never come back.
  
• For those players who enjoy trying multiple playstyles, having more viable playstyles to tinker with keeps things fresh.
  
• With more viable playstyles, there's more depth and it's better for game balance, too, as each style has strengths/weaknesses and more playstyles means more options for counterplay. Like nobody finds Tic Tac Toe interesting, it's a solved game, there's really only one viable way to play it.

[MechNexus]

Dauntless Blint, on 27 June 2021 - 11:31 AM, said:

This^^^

I mainly play assaults, it happens to be that my favorite assault makes me cringe to play these days. Lights could be the only thing worth playing and I still wouldn't play them, except maybe the odd light sniper. It's like woke politics got into game balance. Equality of outcome sneaking in. How many people didn't come back because PGI tried to make their favorite class weaker or at least watered down it's roll to get equal representation in the statistics. When the designers were trying to push the population around to play different stuff they have no interest in. Get Woke Go Broke?

There's an argument to be made that to play lights well you need a good PC in the least let alone skills and a good connection and the bigger and slower you go the less that matters, that's something they could never try and balance for or are they prejudice to people with low end PC's?

There is a possibility they already killed off the majority of clients who would play their favorite chassis or log off rather than play something else that isn't their style. Is there's an unconscious reason they originally called it the gulag?

The measure of success shouldn't be "have we got about equal amounts of weight classes represented in drops" over "have we got the highest gross player count across all chassis"

There could be a survey done on what is your favorite mech if you could only choose one and then see if it's represented in the drop tables given the assumption that's something they can track.
Then see if it's represented in the statistics, if people aren't playing their favorite chassis PGI has more than likely botched it and are lucky to have those clients at all.

1) Regarding that first paragraph: You might have issues, mate.

2) Backstab/knife fighting isn't the only way to play lights. There's also stuff like the Adder, Cougar, Panther, Kit Fox and some Urbies that tend to play more midrange with PPCs, MRMS, (as much as it pains me to say it) LRMs & ATMs. These don't require as much from the pilot as the ones you normally see people talking about - Just position yourself well, win your trades, and make sure you change up your angle of attack often. The Cauldron's changes have helped these out too - Light PPCs are no longer trash-tier, PPCs as a whole are better, they've got better agility for more effective peeking, and soon we'll have quirks (and maybe rescale) to help even things out even more. Grab yourself an Adder Prime or Panther 9R/Katana Kat, slap some PPCs on there, and have yourself some fun.

EDIT: While it's fresh in my head - the third drop of the Omen vs GNX blood leagues match (currently starting drop 5 as I type this) featured a 2 ERPPC PNT-KK, so it's definitely a valid playstyle.

Edited by MechNexus, 27 June 2021 - 02:53 PM.

[Leone]

Yeah. I've a very fun Rac 5, small laser Urbie that whilst slow, has done some heavy lifting. Also, much as I hate them, large laser sniper lights can be a huge distraction, splitting a teams fire at inoppourtune times or drawing away lights to chase 'em down .

~Leone.

[Khobai]

Davegt27, on 26 June 2021 - 12:08 PM, said:

are you making the same mistake PGI has been making all these years?

are you trying to balance lights against assaults ?

some people will never get into a light no matter what you do
same for other that will never get into an assault

it would be a slippery slope

if your working on making the game more fun then focus on that
JMTCW

I agree. and it is a slippery slope.

you have lights that tank better than assaults now. and assaults that die as fast as mediums used to.

all because of this absurd notion that lights and assaults should be equal.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 27 June 2021 - 09:24 PM, said:

I agree. and it is a slippery slope.

you have lights that tank better than assaults now. and assaults that die as fast as mediums used to.

all because of this absurd notion that lights and assaults should be equal.

Lights don't tank better than assaults, you just miss alot.

Assaults, especially clan assaults, have been squishy for a long time. The agility buffs are just one step in making them more durable, but a massive requirking is on the way, as is a rescaling, so it really isn't fair to cast judgement on them now, that's like saying your car got serviced poorly because you didn't wait for the mechanic to finish putting all your wheels on.

More broadly, the role of lights is one that was never going to be well represented in a game where the only objective is blowing up either things, or other players. Until this game gets real objectives, the best lights will be the ones that are agile enough to stay in your shadow and well armed enough to kill you while they're there. That's really hard to do, it takes alot of skill, and its one of the reasons why, despite being one of the most poorly represented and underpowered classes in the game, a light mech in the hands of a skilled pilot will make even modestly level headed pilots think they're overpowered.

[Ghoja]

These mobility changes somehow wrecked the Firebrand Hero Jaeger. It now takes a 340 engine to reach the same top speed that the other jaegers are getting from a 315 engine. For a light engine, that's a 5 ton difference, and 5 tons is not a small amount for a 65ton mech. The Firebrand used to be faster than the other jaegers because of the engine size, the bigger engine gave better acceleration/deceleration, but now all are the same, AND the Firebrand need a bigger engine to get the same performance as the others. Firebrand is now an UNhero mech. I don't mind the change to have them all equal mobility, but don't penalize the HERO mech for it. Change its max engine to the same as the others or give it back the benefits for the engines it can mount.

Edited by Ghoja, 29 July 2021 - 05:19 PM.

[Nightbird]

Ghoja, on 29 July 2021 - 05:17 PM, said:

These mobility changes somehow wrecked the Firebrand Hero Jaeger. It now takes a 340 engine to reach the same top speed that the other jaegers are getting from a 315 engine. For a light engine, that's a 5 ton difference, and 5 tons is not a small amount for a 65ton mech. The Firebrand used to be faster than the other jaegers because of the engine size, the bigger engine gave better acceleration/deceleration, but now all are the same, AND the Firebrand need a bigger engine to get the same performance as the others. Firebrand is now an UNhero mech. I don't mind the change to have them all equal mobility, but don't penalize the HERO mech for it. Change its max engine to the same as the others or give it back the benefits for the engines it can mount.

You speed tweak your other Jaegers and forgot to speed tweak the Firebrand?

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Quoting myself from 18 days back here:

Aidan Crenshaw, on 12 July 2021 - 12:54 AM, said:

Movement Speed was never touched and is completely dependent on your engine and your skills. A Jager with a 315 engine moves always at the same speed, no matter which variant. Max Speed is always a function of engine rating to max. weight.
Probably for whatever reason you have full speed tweak nodes unlocked for the other Jagers.

Accel/Decel are independent from engine size since the engine desync in 2017.

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 29 July 2021 - 09:48 PM.

[Thorqemada]

YueFei, on 27 June 2021 - 01:26 PM, said:

...(remember SRM giganerfed to 1.5 damage/missile)...

SRM got Giganerfed several times!

They had at some point in the early existence of the game a point of convergence so players that had a sense for range or the nerves to look at the numbers could direct 100% of the missiles into one single mech locaton.

They had their Splashdamage "fixed" aka almost removed (set to one of the lowest possible values) as splash damage meant a multiplikation of damage bcs it worked the way that the full splash damage was applied to every location in the splash radius.

SRM were multitudes more dangerous than today!

Edited by Thorqemada, 30 July 2021 - 02:04 AM.

[Mochyn Pupur]

justcallme A S H, on 24 June 2021 - 01:49 PM, said:

Yes many lights received improvement. However thst was not your issue.



You said best performing.

Just look at the Commando, is basically got nothing.

Lights are not over performing. They have been and still are, the least represented class in MWO gameplay.
If they were over performing everyone would be using them, they aren't.

You refer to a single IS mech, the rest now are buffed beyond anything reasonable - the agility pass is just further ruining the heavy/assault classes with their minimal improvements. This is doing nothing to balance the stupid dps some of these lights can put out against heavier chassis that just cannot turn quick enough even fully quirked.

I suggest you watch how lights can dance around in the middle of a group of mechs and be virtually unassailable until a well placed leg shot slows them down. A light shouldn't be able to glue themselves to an objective and become invulnerable because of their quirks.

This pass has done nothing to address the 13 - 18% increase in damage the weapons pass has thrown into the arena (these figures calculated from mech/loadouts I kept and used in trial drops, using the same path and hit locations) especially on the unbalanced damage outputs you can achieve on light and some medium mechs. In fact, its made it worse.

[justcallme A S H]

PeppaPig, on 30 July 2021 - 12:34 AM, said:

You refer to a single IS mech, the rest now are buffed beyond anything reasonable

They were buffed up to, or near, as my example showed.

So they are not beyond reasonable as the commando is by definition, reasonable, for its mobilty.

[Capt Deadpool]

It's been said many times but clearly bears repeating: if lights were as dominant and easy to play as a small minority seem to think, then they would not be the least played class, would not be the class doing the least damage per game, would not be the class that contributes the least to their team's wins, and would be a recommended class for cadets to start playing the game with.

Given that these are facts and not opinions, it would bode well for you if you checked your own perception of how effectively you yourself are able to deal with lights--an aspect of your ego/false self that is clouding your perceptions of reality--and ask yourself perhaps if it might be possible to deal with lights in the more effective manner that the majority of players do who have little problem with them by: working on your aim, lowering mouse sensitivity, staying with your team (particularly if you are not carrying any anti-light weapons), and targeting the appropriate components.

[pattonesque]

PeppaPig, on 30 July 2021 - 12:34 AM, said:

You refer to a single IS mech, the rest now are buffed beyond anything reasonable - the agility pass is just further ruining the heavy/assault classes with their minimal improvements. This is doing nothing to balance the stupid dps some of these lights can put out against heavier chassis that just cannot turn quick enough even fully quirked.

I suggest you watch how lights can dance around in the middle of a group of mechs and be virtually unassailable until a well placed leg shot slows them down. A light shouldn't be able to glue themselves to an objective and become invulnerable because of their quirks.

This pass has done nothing to address the 13 - 18% increase in damage the weapons pass has thrown into the arena (these figures calculated from mech/loadouts I kept and used in trial drops, using the same path and hit locations) especially on the unbalanced damage outputs you can achieve on light and some medium mechs. In fact, its made it worse.

just shoot them dude

[pbiggz]

PeppaPig, on 30 July 2021 - 12:34 AM, said:

You refer to a single IS mech, the rest now are buffed beyond anything reasonable - the agility pass is just further ruining the heavy/assault classes with their minimal improvements. This is doing nothing to balance the stupid dps some of these lights can put out against heavier chassis that just cannot turn quick enough even fully quirked.

I suggest you watch how lights can dance around in the middle of a group of mechs and be virtually unassailable until a well placed leg shot slows them down. A light shouldn't be able to glue themselves to an objective and become invulnerable because of their quirks.

This pass has done nothing to address the 13 - 18% increase in damage the weapons pass has thrown into the arena (these figures calculated from mech/loadouts I kept and used in trial drops, using the same path and hit locations) especially on the unbalanced damage outputs you can achieve on light and some medium mechs. In fact, its made it worse.

A: The changes are only part of the rebalance. We have weapon balance, maneuverability, and quirks coming, AND a rescale down the road. Claiming that the cauldron ruined the meta for you when the meta has barely settled in the last 5 months is remarkably dishonest.

B: If you honestly think light mechs are overpowered that is a pretty big admission that you don't understand this game.

Its ok dude, im mediocre too, but at least i have the wherewithal to admit that MY skills leave alot of room for improvement, rather than imagining i lose sometimes because justcallme A S H rubs his devious Australian hands together while he personally plots to nerf my favourite mechs.

[Capt Deadpool]

Dauntless Blint, on 27 June 2021 - 11:31 AM, said:

This^^^

I mainly play assaults, it happens to be that my favorite assault makes me cringe to play these days. Lights could be the only thing worth playing and I still wouldn't play them, except maybe the odd light sniper. It's like woke politics got into game balance. Equality of outcome sneaking in. How many people didn't come back because PGI tried to make their favorite class weaker or at least watered down it's roll to get equal representation in the statistics. When the designers were trying to push the population around to play different stuff they have no interest in. Get Woke Go Broke?

Just to give some context to our non-American friends who may be confused, the American for-profit news media landscape is composed of several entities (two of which were founded by and are controlled by billionaires) who discovered that their ratings, and thusly, the rates which they can charge their advertising partners, is highly dependent not upon providing the public with useful information about what is going on in the world but by exacerbating and inflaming partisanism. It became worse after the 'War on Terror' started to wane, so new enemies needed to be manufactured to maintain ratings. Every side does it, everyone who gets their information from these sources becomes less informed about the world--not more informed, and individuals' entire worldviews can be shaped depending upon which channel that they watch. It is the goal of these networks to make us all believe we are far more different from each other than we are similar, which is patently false.

Pray for us...

[Thorqemada]

I think old Hollywood has made several movies that predicted such a development...in fact old Hollywood has given quite some hints about many things.

[Gagis]

Its pretty much an inevitable result of having a two-party system which is in turn an inevitable result of having first-past-the-post elections with single-member districts.

Those were fine solutions back in 17th century.

[1453 R]

Ladies and gentlemen?

Wildly off topic.

Mayhaps get back to robits and how well they can tapdance?