228 replies to this topic

[dario03]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 11:02 PM, said:

Hope this clear things up.
Data in the table are considering no JJ node from skill tree.

This table only shows max height. There are other aspects to how a JJ affects movement that are also important... one being how fast you rise up... which is going to be massively in favor of lights.

Also, having JJs on your mech is more about how well you can get to places and how much height you'll need, rather than, hey, this mech has heavier JJs so it must jump exactly twice as high.


In game right now (actual ingame max height in meters):




With the proposed changes (actual ingame max height in meters):

Recharge rate was also going to remain in favor of lights right? Been a while since we worked on the JJ numbers but iirc this made it so 1 or 2 jjs on a light could actually get you places. Also assaults will have mobility but not much poptarting ability due to lift speed. Its a big buff for lights and assaults with jjs. I think big enough to test before going further since not all mechs can take jjs.

[B0oN]

Hey, errrm, while youre at it giving JJ´s some love : propose for reinstating of JJ-shake, I loved that and the shake made it considerably harder to poptart in ez-mode ... and to those guys yelling "but mah motionsickness will trigger!!1!11!" I say this : If the shake is too hard, you focus on the wrong points of the screen and I demand videos of youse barfing all over youse PC´s to make me consider getting off the JJ-Shake-horsie .

Edited by B0oN, 22 June 2021 - 02:37 AM.

[dario03]

B0oN, on 22 June 2021 - 02:37 AM, said:

Hey, errrm, while youre at it giving JJ´s some love : propose for reinstating of JJ-shake, I loved that and the shake made it considerably harder to poptart in ez-mode ... and to those guys yelling "but mah motionsickness will trigger!!1!11!" I say this : If the shake is too hard, you focus on the wrong points of the screen and I demand videos of youse barfing all over youse PC´s to make me consider getting off the JJ-Shake-horsie .

The game currently does have jj shake.
Are you asking for more shake? Shake on the way down? Or something else?

[Wid1046]

This is very unlikely to be implemented since it would require an engineer, but I think it would be great if jump jets were reworked to allow for much greater jump heights without bringing back the poptart meta. The thrust from jump jets are from venting your engine, so it would make sense for those engines to not be able to produce the full power required to fire weapons etc. while jump jetting, and require a bit of time afterwards to fully stabilize the engine again once you're done. So you would be able to walk, move and fire your jump jets, but everything else would require the same amount of time as starting up your mech before it would come back online.

I think it would be cool to see your cockpit go onto emergency lighting, lose your HUD, have most of your displays like your map go dark, and need to rely on a physical gauge in your cockpit to see how much longer your jump jets will last. You could double (or more) the jump height of mechs and it wouldn't bring the poptart meta back. Poptarting would technically still be possible, but you'd have to jump much higher to get enough hang time to start everything back up, which would mean that you'd likely get a lot of return fire.

This is more of a 'it'd be great if' then a serious proposal since I know that getting an engineer to make changes anytime soon is unlikely and there are bigger problems to fix if PGI decided to actually get an engineer for MWO. The proposed changes from Navid are a great improvement (making jump jets better without making poptarting annoyingly worse) and it'll be fantastic to see them implemented next month.

[vonJerg]

dario03, on 22 June 2021 - 02:52 AM, said:

The game currently does have jj shake.
Are you asking for more shake? Shake on the way down? Or something else?

I'm not sure if giving shake on way down would be easy to implement in the first place. Only logical way would be to put shake whenever the mech is not on the ground by using same flag that is used for heat dissipation and/or for JJ recharging. But that would totally kill poptarting for anything but a lock-ons. Unless you also disable weapons while in air, but that would kill many light mechs as well, as they get launched into air so often by bumps on the surface they run on.

At the end, let's just let it stay as it is, ok (hides his collection of veagles, summoners, blackjacks,...)

[Wid1046]

vonJerg, on 22 June 2021 - 03:24 AM, said:

I'm not sure if giving shake on way down would be easy to implement in the first place. Only logical way would be to put shake whenever the mech is not on the ground by using same flag that is used for heat dissipation and/or for JJ recharging. But that would totally kill poptarting for anything but a lock-ons. Unless you also disable weapons while in air, but that would kill many light mechs as well, as they get launched into air so often by bumps on the surface they run on.

At the end, let's just let it stay as it is, ok (hides his collection of veagles, summoners, blackjacks,...)

If jump jet shake only happens when a mech is both still in the air and jump jets fuel is not full, then light mechs will not be affected by simply running over a ramp or a bump too fast.

[Sjorpha]

Changes look pretty good to me.

[Matthew Ace]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 09:12 PM, said:

This is what we have proposed to PGI:




For reference:

The max jump height shown in mechlab is calculated as


Actual jump height in game is




where:
num_JJ = Number of JJs
thrst_z = Upward Thrust
thrst_init = Initial Upward speed
burn_dur = JJ Burn duration
Mech_ton = Mech tonnage
g = gravity (in MWO it seems to be 4*9.8 = 39.2)

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 11:02 PM, said:

Hope this clear things up.
Data in the table are considering no JJ node from skill tree.

This table only shows max height. There are other aspects to how a JJ affects movement that are also important... one being how fast you rise up... which is going to be massively in favor of lights.

Also, having JJs on your mech is more about how well you can get to places and how much height you'll need, rather than, hey, this mech has heavier JJs so it must jump exactly twice as high.


In game right now (actual ingame max height in meters):




With the proposed changes (actual ingame max height in meters):

Changes to max jump height looks incredible and pretty close to what I would have suggested myself (exceeded, even), I can't wait to try it!

Also very thankful for the sharing of jump height formula.

Now, if only we have some jumping 20 tonners...

Also curious
(i) Is the formula something that can be changed, be it by XML or coding changes?
(ii) Is it possible for PGI to also consider making it that jump jets start recharging as soon as you stop gunning jets, rather than be on the ground?

Edited by Matthew Ace, 22 June 2021 - 05:21 AM.

[Mark Yore]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 10:27 PM, said:

... and being catapulted to the moon become way more common ...

Yes please!

[Nightbird]

Navid A1, on 22 June 2021 - 12:22 AM, said:

Of course it is not linear... a 90-100 tonner jumping up 65 meters with 6 tons of JJs will create a lot of problems other than the mech getting to a better shooting position.

The goal is not to go back to poptart 90 tonner meta, but to allow bigger mechs to reach higher places.

Linear as in you get constant diminishing returns as mech tonnage goes up, why an intentional adjustment to make it worse for lights? If assault JJs should be worse than heavies, and heavies worse than mediums, why make the effort to make light JJs worse than mediums?

Also, is the max height in game formula something PGI provided or something you guys worked out?

Edited by Nightbird, 22 June 2021 - 06:30 AM.

[1453 R]

Simply chiming in to note that I am perfectly fine, and in fact all for, assault jets having a long burn time and slow ascension, if that means they're actually worth having on the 'Mech again. I'd love for assaults to be able to use jump jets for their intended function of negotiating difficult ground or sharp elevation changes, even if it takes a while for them to do so. I'd prefer sharp, explosive jumps of course, but poptarts are aggravating and slow-burn jump jets are the best compromise to get assault 'Mechs the ability to actually care about jump jets whilst avoiding Fat Tart problems. I won't comment on the math as I'm on shift and saving my math brain for when customers inevitably ask me stupid engineering questions, but the idea of giving assaults and larger heavies longer, slower burns to allow them to access advantageous terrain without more poptart tomfuckery seems a really helpful one.

[Mochyn Pupur]

Nice, lets see those Myst Lynx legs go crunch . . . . . even more than before

[Gas Guzzler]

Kiiyor, on 21 June 2021 - 07:32 PM, said:

Super nervous about this one. Pls no return to the Dragon Slayer poptart days.

I can't imagine that becoming stronger than what is on the field right now.

[Khobai]

why do jumpjets still give diminishing returns? that is all wrong.

Because it encourages taking the bare minimum number of jumpjets required while failing to provide any incentive to max out the number of jumpjets on a mech.

It actually punishes you for taking max jumpjets. because why would anyone keep paying the same tonnage for additional jumpjets that get weaker and weaker?

that needs to be fixed. its the exact opposite of how it should be.

jumpjets should provide exponential gains so the more tonnage you devote to jumpjets the more benefit you get out of them. jumpjets should get more powerful the closer you get to the maximum number of jumpjets the mech can equip.

Edited by Khobai, 22 June 2021 - 07:55 AM.

[Nightbird]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 09:12 PM, said:

Actual jump height in game is




where:
num_JJ = Number of JJs
thrst_z = Upward Thrust
thrst_init = Initial Upward speed
burn_dur = JJ Burn duration
Mech_ton = Mech tonnage
g = gravity (in MWO it seems to be 4*9.8 = 39.2)

Did the cauldron calculate this? Here is what I got which is different from this formula:



This is all moot if activating JJs nullifies gravity or there is diminishing returns per JJ or some other weirdness in the game engine that violates even game physics.

Edited by Nightbird, 22 June 2021 - 08:45 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Nightbird, on 22 June 2021 - 06:09 AM, said:

Linear as in you get constant diminishing returns as mech tonnage goes up, why an intentional adjustment to make it worse for lights? If assault JJs should be worse than heavies, and heavies worse than mediums, why make the effort to make light JJs worse than mediums?

Also, is the max height in game formula something PGI provided or something you guys worked out?

So I'm actually fairly aligned with your concern here (proportional investment should yield proportional results). What's the ideal end state here?

[ Number of Jets * Jet Tonnage ] / Mech Tonnage = Height * a constant ?

[Nightbird]

Vlad Ward, on 22 June 2021 - 08:02 AM, said:

So I'm actually fairly aligned with your concern here (proportional investment should yield proportional results). What's the ideal end state here?

[ Number of Jets * Jet Tonnage ] / Mech Tonnage = Height * a constant ?

If all mechs can reach the same height with the same % tonnage investment, I'd be fine with it, but if we want heavier mechs to have a drawback, then make heavier mechs jump a little less high or take a bit longer to reach that height, or both.

[1453 R]

The answer is "take longer to reach that height." If I put four jets on my Timber Wolf, I should be able to reach the places four jets will get my Kit Fox. Acceleration can absolutely be slower, but four jets in the source material gets you 120 meters of jump capacity. Heavy and assault 'Mech jump jets don't get to be heavier, slower, and weaker that light and medium 'Mech jump jets. They can be heavier. They can be slower. But making them weaker too is just too much.

[Khobai]

1453 R, on 22 June 2021 - 08:55 AM, said:

The answer is "take longer to reach that height." If I put four jets on my Timber Wolf, I should be able to reach the places four jets will get my Kit Fox. Acceleration can absolutely be slower, but four jets in the source material gets you 120 meters of jump capacity. Heavy and assault 'Mech jump jets don't get to be heavier, slower, and weaker that light and medium 'Mech jump jets. They can be heavier. They can be slower. But making them weaker too is just too much.

yeah but if you give the timberwolf's jumpjets less acceleration then you also have to give it way more burn time on its jumpjets for it to reach the same height as the kitfox.

that creates a very weird situation where the larger mechs get way more burn time on their jumpjets. I dont think thats a good idea.

I think its okay for an executioner, timberwolf, and kitfox that all have 4 jumpjets to not all jump the same height.

The problem is the executioner needs to get its 8 tons worth. And right now it doesnt. And with cauldrons numbers it still doesnt.

With cauldrons numbers an executioner with 8 tons of jumpjets still only jumps as high as a 30 tonner with 1 ton of jumpjets. Its spending 8 times the tonnage on jumpjets to jump the same distance as a kitfox when it only weighs 3 times more than a kitfox. That doesnt add up.

Thats why any jumpjet formula used should factor in the tonnage spent on jumpjets. And also get rid of diminishing returns on jumpjets and instead reward mechs with exponential gains for taking more jumpjets. Right now theres little reason for a mech that can take 8-12 jumpjets to actually take that many jumpjets because the diminishing returns make it pointless. There needs to be incentive to take more jumpjets and not just settle with "just enough" jumpjets.

Edited by Khobai, 22 June 2021 - 10:14 AM.

[1453 R]

Every jump jet is worth thirty meters' distance. Larger 'Mechs require heavier, more powerful jump jets to get the same thirty meters. The tax is having to pay for the larger jump jets. No, it is NOT okay for a 'Mech with four jump jets to get significantly less distance than another 'Mech with four jump jets, irrespective of the weight involved.

Now, in a perfect world? All this floaty, controlled nonsense would go away and hitting the jump jets would be more like a rocket jump in other FPS games - your 'Mech violently explodes skyward, the whole damn thing is shaking like mad, and you reach the apex of your jump in two seconds at the absolute most. Jumping would have tactical applications in getting the hell out of Dodge - you could hit the jets to forcibly skyblast your way out of a long laser burn, or to get from the bottom of a trench to the top of it and then book for cover in short friggin' order.

But since we live in the world we live in, that sort of actual JUMP jet behavior is never happening. Since it's not, we get to try and make it so that four jets is four jets is four jets, regardless of a 'Mech's tonnage. Talking about percentages is pointless. if that means larger 'Mechs get more burn time but less initial thrust because that's how the engineers in the 'verse would have to engineer the jump systems for much larger machines, then that's what we get.