164 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

[mod]This thread was split from its original discussion due to being off-topic[/mod]

Vxheous, on 23 June 2021 - 12:02 AM, said:

Brawlers will jump faster than they do now with the JJ changes, even with a single jumpjet.

brawlers dont need to jump faster. brawlers need brawling weapons that arnt anemic. brawling weapons do not kill mechs significantly faster than PPFLD weapons and thats a problem for brawlers. Especially since most brawlers are usually damaged by the time they finally get into weapons range.

and JJ buffs absolutely benefits snipers way more because it gives them more angles to attack brawlers from at long range. it lets them jump more often as well. that makes it more difficult for brawlers to hide.

again PGI chose to nerf JJs for a reason. Ignoring those reasons is not going to benefit the game.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 23 June 2021 - 02:12 AM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 23 June 2021 - 12:03 AM, said:

brawlers dont need to jump faster. brawlers need brawling weapons that arnt anemic.

But brawling weapons aren't anemic, LBXs, SRMs, small/med pulse lasers hit plenty hard, and is super heat efficient. It's the closing distance/using cover part that bad brawlers have an issue with.

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 23 June 2021 - 12:06 AM, said:

But brawling weapons aren't anemic, LBXs, SRMs, small/med pulse lasers hit plenty hard, and is super heat efficient. It's the closing distance/using cover part that bad brawlers have an issue with.

Brawlers are definitely anemic compared to PPFLD. Thats why brawling has gotten less popular in favor of midrange and sniping builds. Thats why everyone is saying brawling is weaker and its now a poking/sniping meta.

People have even said when they switch from brawling builds to PPFLD builds their match score instantly goes up. Because thats the playstyle the meta heavily favors right now.

You can still do well in a brawler, sure, but it requires significantly more setup and circumstance than it used to. It is much more difficult to do well in a brawler than it used to be. And the risk vs reward isnt really there IMO. I dont believe brawling is in equal parity with midrange/longrange. And I feel buffing jumpjets across the board rather than on a case by case basis will make that even worse.


I also agree small pulses are fine but I also dont really consider small pulses to be a brawler weapon. its more of a harassment weapon for light mechs. most mechs I would consider brawlers arnt using small pulses because the range is a bit too short. the medium pulse is more of what I consider a brawler weapon.

But I find SRMs, LBX, and the like to be fairly weak right now compared to long range PPFLD weapons. Speading damage around just doesnt kill mechs as fast as concentrating all the damage in one location. And when more people on your team run long range PPFLD builds, it becomes that much more effective, because you can focus down mechs very quickly at long range.

Long range mechs are better at focus firing because youre more likely to be able to focus fire an enemy mech with long range builds than if you have a bunch of short range builds. Just because the chances of having more mechs in range of a particular enemy increases when you have more mechs with longer range weapons. Thats what the current meta is all about.

To be fair a lot of is map dependent as well. But considering everyone votes for Canyon all the damn time now it makes it hard to want to play a brawler.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2021 - 12:51 AM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 23 June 2021 - 12:32 AM, said:

Theyre definitely anemic compared to PPFLD. Thats why brawling has gotten less popular in favor of midrange and sniping builds. Thats why everyone is saying brawling is weaker and its now a poking/sniping meta.

No, brawling damage is not anemic compared to PPFLD, people being used to being able to closer distance without being punished is what is anemic. Poking/sniping has become viable again, which means you cant just hold mindlessly while charging at people and expect a good outcome. If a brawler plays smart and closes distance with 90% of their mech still intact, they will tear the mod range trader apart, as they should. If a brawler decides he should charge over open ground for 500m, that brawler should get craved to pieces by the mid ranged trader. That is balance.

You are right though, in that brawling has a higher risk/reward vs mid ranged trading, much like pure sniping builds (massed ERLL) also tend to have higher risk/reward, specifically when it comes to quick play. Brawling requires patience, use of cover and understanding of lanes/positioning to close distance, but once that distance is closed, it's really easy to melt mechs with brawler's higher dps/heat ratios. Mid ranged trading on the other hand is more jack of all trades, and can function in pretty much any scenario/any map, which makes it an easy go to for quickplay, but it doesn't mean that overall it's stronger. Likewise with pure sniping builds like massed ERLLs, you can destroy people at long range, but if you get left behind, wolfpacked etc, you fall into a huge disadvantage (one of the reasons why while the Hellbringer Virago with 4 ERLL is a really strong build, it doesn't get played in quick play).

Edited by Vxheous, 23 June 2021 - 12:48 AM.

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 23 June 2021 - 12:38 AM, said:

No, brawling damage is not anemic compared to PPFLD, people being used to being able to closer distance without being punished is what is anemic. Poking/sniping has become viable again, which means you cant just hold mindlessly while charging at people and expect a good outcome. If a brawler plays smart and closes distance with 90% of their mech still intact, they will tear the mod range trader apart, as they should. If a brawler decides he should charge over open ground for 500m, that brawler should get craved to pieces by the mid ranged trader. That is balance.

You are right though, in that brawling has a higher risk/reward vs mid ranged trading, much like pure sniping builds (massed ERLL) also tend to have higher risk/reward, specifically when it comes to quick play. Brawling requires patience, use of cover and understanding of lanes/positioning to close distance, but once that distance is closed, it's really easy to melt mechs with brawler's higher dps/heat ratios. Mid ranged trading on the other hand is more jack of all trades, and can function in pretty much any scenario/any map, which makes it an easy go to for quickplay, but it doesn't mean that overall it's stronger. Likewise with pure sniping builds like massed ERLLs, you can destroy people at long range, but if you get left behind, wolfpacked etc, you fall into a huge disadvantage (one of the reasons why while the Hellbringer Virago with 4 ERLL is a really strong build, it doesn't get played in quick play).

then why has the meta shifted so heavily away from brawling and so obviously towards midrange and long range PPFLD?

you say brawling hasnt gotten weaker but people are definitely playing brawlers less.

I bet you if PGI released the stats of what the top builds are right now youd even see that.

And buffing jumpjets is definitely going to push things even further in favor of midrange/longrange over brawling. thats my main concern is that buffing jumpjets is going to push things too far out of favor for brawlers.

If mechs like executioner are already good enough for comp play with x3 ERPPCs then buffing its jumpjets is going to make it even better. so that kindve proves my point that sniping builds will get better. its not brawlers that benefit from better jumpjets they dont need to jump around that much.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2021 - 01:14 AM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 23 June 2021 - 01:06 AM, said:

then why has the meta shifted so heavily away from brawling and so obviously towards midrange and long range PPFLD?

you say brawling hasnt gotten weaker but people are definitely playing brawlers less.

I bet you if PGI released the stats of what the top builds are right now youd even see that.

And buffing jumpjets is definitely going to push things even further in favor of midrange/longrange over brawling. thats my main concern is that buffing jumpjets is going to push things too far out of favor for brawlers.

If mechs like executioner are already good enough for comp play with x3 ERPPCs then buffing its jumpjets is going to make it even better. so that kindve proves my point that sniping builds will get better. its not brawlers that benefit from better jumpjets they dont need to jump around that much.

I already explained it, jack of all trades, and ease of use, not actual potency when both styles are played well. We are off topic at this point.

Investment into jumpjets should give a payoff, regardless of weight class. 4 jumpjets on an assault is 8 tons, for 8 tons it should allow me to jump up onto buildings.

[Gagis]

Brawl beats midrange and long range at short range
Long range beats midrange and brawl at long range
Long range beats brawl at midrange
Midrange beats Long range at short range and mid-range
Midrange beats Brawl at long range and mid-range

QP is often mid-range, practically never long-range and sometimes short range

Edited by Gagis, 23 June 2021 - 02:39 AM.

[MechNexus]

Khobai, on 23 June 2021 - 01:06 AM, said:

then why has the meta shifted so heavily away from brawling and so obviously towards midrange and long range PPFLD?

you say brawling hasnt gotten weaker but people are definitely playing brawlers less.

I bet you if PGI released the stats of what the top builds are right now youd even see that.

And buffing jumpjets is definitely going to push things even further in favor of midrange/longrange over brawling. thats my main concern is that buffing jumpjets is going to push things too far out of favor for brawlers.

If mechs like executioner are already good enough for comp play with x3 ERPPCs then buffing its jumpjets is going to make it even better. so that kindve proves my point that sniping builds will get better. its not brawlers that benefit from better jumpjets they dont need to jump around that much.

People are playing brawlers less as they're extremely hit or miss in QP through no fault of their own. Brawling requires a coordinated push, which pugs don't really do (note that Nascar =/= push) and many maps lacked viable cover to let you get up close - This is why polar got given a massive rework as it was a death sentence if you picked a brawl mech and the vote took you there.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

a MASSIVE problem with brawl-builds in QP is quite frankly: others.

while 9+ people are picking their nose, you can't do nothing in a brawler. you wait.
and you'll probably HAVE TO wait a lot longer, till a situation develops where you can do something.
that will take several minutes and/or most of the match.

the situation is VERY different with an agressive team, but that's 1out of 20 or so.


a midrange-build is much more flexible and you can work your way around the battlefield,
getting a spot where you at least can do something.
or you can just pick lrm and 'demand' somebody get you a lock, or sit with the rest and also pick your nose.
etc etc.


I love,love,love to brawl, but it's not something to take to QP - at least when you wanna play it smart.
brawling imHo is for faction with people that trust you and you can trust - and it was glorious in scouting, until SOMEBODY killed scouting for no reason at all.
it's also sth you can bring to Sol7 - should you ever find an opponent there.


anywhoo - brawling in QP: as much as it pains me, but: just don't. taking "the easy route" is so much more rewarding than the fun-route way more often than not.

[Khobai]

MechNexus, on 23 June 2021 - 03:14 AM, said:

People are playing brawlers less as they're extremely hit or miss in QP through no fault of their own. Brawling requires a coordinated push, which pugs don't really do (note that Nascar =/= push) and many maps lacked viable cover to let you get up close - This is why polar got given a massive rework as it was a death sentence if you picked a brawl mech and the vote took you there.

What makes brawling hit or miss though? What punishes brawlers that dont have cover? Its long range snipers. When sniping is stronger it makes brawling inherently weaker.

Midrange also punishes brawlers but not to the extent where brawlers cant retaliate against them. Brawlers are generally helpless to retaliate against long range snipers though. Brawling becomes less hit or miss when sniping is in a weaker state in the meta.

Which is why im generally against the idea of buffing jumpjets. I dont see how that helps brawlers at all. The mechs that benefit most from jumpjet buffs are the mechs trying to get shots on other mechs from halfway across the map. Better jumpjets means they can get better angles on potential targets to snipe.

I definitely think the risk vs reward for brawlers is a bit off right now. I would like to see things shifted back in favor of brawling a little more. Because its much more fun than this camping/sniping meta.

Vxheous, on 23 June 2021 - 01:18 AM, said:

Investment into jumpjets should give a payoff, regardless of weight class. 4 jumpjets on an assault is 8 tons, for 8 tons it should allow me to jump up onto buildings.

another solution would just be to not have locked jumpjets.except on the S variants

locked jumpjets have always been a problem for omnimechs, especially the executioner

omnimechs have practically no advantages over battlemechs these days anyway. theres a perfect battlemech chassis for nearly any build you wanna make. and omnimechs lose their quirks if you change just one component which is crap.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2021 - 03:57 AM.

[East Indy]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 23 June 2021 - 03:28 AM, said:

a MASSIVE problem with brawl-builds in QP is quite frankly: others.

while 9+ people are picking their nose, you can't do nothing in a brawler. you wait.

I'd suggest you're really saying that a playstyle that is never the optimal choice for optimizing players won't be well-supported in a match with a lot of those players. I see it every week.

When a good portion of those 9+ players say "screw it" and pick something other than snipers and close, the game experience changes drastically. Bud Crue and his group are famous for instigating close-range engagements. I'm sure there are others. But if it's mostly A-list...indeed, you wait.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

East Indy, on 23 June 2021 - 04:05 AM, said:

I'd suggest you're really saying that a playstyle that is never the optimal choice for optimizing players won't be well-supported in a match with a lot of those players. I see it every week.

When a good portion of those 9+ players say "screw it" and pick something other than snipers and close, the game experience changes drastically. Bud Crue and his group are famous for instigating close-range engagements. I'm sure there are others. But if it's mostly A-list...indeed, you wait.

you said it yourself: group.

try the classic yourself: solo in an srm+ac orion or onionIIC - 2 of the best brawlers out there. and if you're team is passive (and it usually is, to a painful extent), you either just bite your time, or you yolo (as you're the only target out there and a small group of reds WILL gang up on you, if you move into brawling range).
both isn't fun.

I've had plenty of games since the re-install, and I can count those where my side saw an opportunity AND TOOK IT, instead of picking their noses, on one hand.
no, brawling isn't good or bad - and we optimise pretty much in FW; but brawling is a LOT more depend on your side doing something, and that's not where I see Quickplay at all. problem aren't the mechs, the weapons, or the mode.
problem is, as so often, a very passive playerbase on average. or as I sometimes mention in QP:
"mwo is maybe the only shooter where people sit around, afraid to shoot things"

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 23 June 2021 - 04:38 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 23 June 2021 - 03:34 AM, said:

What makes brawling hit or miss though? What punishes brawlers that dont have cover? Its long range snipers. When sniping is stronger it makes brawling inherently weaker.

Midrange also punishes brawlers but not to the extent where brawlers cant retaliate against them. Brawlers are generally helpless to retaliate against long range snipers though. Brawling becomes less hit or miss when sniping is in a weaker state in the meta.

Which is why im generally against the idea of buffing jumpjets. I dont see how that helps brawlers at all. The mechs that benefit most from jumpjet buffs are the mechs trying to get shots on other mechs from halfway across the map. Better jumpjets means they can get better angles on potential targets to snipe.

I definitely think the risk vs reward for brawlers is a bit off right now. I would like to see things shifted back in favor of brawling a little more. Because its much more fun than this camping/sniping meta.

Brawling isn’t any more “hit and miss” than any other play style, and I think the JJ performance increases are going to help them as much as they will help any other style of play. Just off the top of my head I can see that the jump jet improvements are going to make several of my heavy brawlers better because at the very least I will be able to drop one jet and gain more cooling, armor or firepower. In others I might add 1-2 to allow them to do things like readily get to the central platforms on River, Mining and HPG when the damn ramps are blocked. It’ll help my medium brawlers because now I might have the ability to actually give chase to Fleas and their ilk when they miraculously run up walls that my mech can’t for some reason. It’ll help my assault brawlers by just giving their typical 1 jet a bit of a boost or encourage me to add one (or more) to try things I couldn’t before (I am totally going to be running a 2 AC20 Victor with full jets and am really looking forward to messing about with more jets on the Charger Lucky#7).

Brawling is fun, as much fun as other styles of play, and the jump jet improvements are going to make it more so.

[pbiggz]

The basis of your entire argument is that MPL spam and large bore autocannons are anemic, and for that reason we shouldn't buff jumpjets.

Since the basis of your argument is false, why should anyone take your arguments against jumpjet buffs seriously?

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 23 June 2021 - 01:06 AM, said:

then why has the meta shifted so heavily away from brawling and so obviously towards midrange and long range PPFLD?

you say brawling hasnt gotten weaker but people are definitely playing brawlers less.

Cast your mind back 1 month ago. The amount of threads, posts and comments about SNPPC/AC20 combos lead to May patch seeing tuning of SNPPC.

SNPPC was a brawling weapon. SNPPC is also on the cards to get another tweak potentially which is going to be quite interesting.

If the META shifted away from Brawling as heavily as you're trying to suggest - why did SNPPC end up being the most discussed? Your points of argument are completely contradicted by actual events.


Brawling isn't dead. Many brawl mechs just received great buffs. I'm addition, as you've had to have been told many, many times - 3 parts. Weapons, Mobility and Quirks.

We're only into the first two. After we're through 3, META settles, then comments about shifts will be far more reasonable - not before. Especially when META is literally shifting every 4 weeks right now each patch as people are trying out all manner of things. To claim there is some hard shift in META in a few weeks isn't really accurate

Edited by justcallme A S H, 23 June 2021 - 12:41 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 23 June 2021 - 03:34 AM, said:

What makes brawling hit or miss though?

The same thing thst makes long range hit or miss perhaps?

- Map
- Mode
- What mechs are in your match
- What loadouts your teammates have
- What players are in your match
- What the plan is

I'm sure there are more I could come up with if I wanted. End if the day they are all the same factors that make brawling hit/miss make long range hit/miss.

Skirmish range 350-550m with 70-81km/h has always been the most reliable in MWO and that will never change as it's a all-rounder.

[1453 R]

What?

You mean a medium-range all-rounder built to be at least modestly decent in as many situations as possible rather than heavily specializing in one, single form of combat has an advantage in the mosh pit where the only certainties to be had are death and your team's Lurmboat tax?

No! It can't be!

Settle your ****, Khobai. Brawly weapons are doing just fine. If a close-range punchmonster 'Mech with large-bore autocannons and scads of surms manages to get the engagement it wants against pretty much anything else but another of its kind, that 'Mech has a punishing advantage. My dual cUAC/20 Night Gyr does not lose close fights against anything but overwhelming enemy numbers - if it gets the fight it wants it wins, and it's not even a particularly amazeballs brawler 'Mech. I've seen plenty of people running that event Timberpuppy champ with a mess of cMPLs and surms - those are deeply unpleasant if you don't see them coming, and Timberpuppies are still quick enough to get in and do their thing if the pilot is canny. Hell, give it a month-ish for the Warden pack to drop and we'll be seeing Timberpuppies with ECM and a cUAC/10 with the same mess of cMPLs. May not be Top Comp Ultra Meta (More than one kind of weapon, has fewer than thirty heat sinks), but I guarantee it'll rock the mosh pit's world to have stealthy Timberpuppies with tons of lasers running around being evil.

What you're seeing is what happens when weapons with a range greater than 300 are allowed to be good and people can remind brawlers that poking their noodles incautiously will get those noodles shot. As Ash points out, sometimes the game just doesn't line up to make your dedicated 300-or-less-ONLY brawly bastid the star of the show. Other times the game hands you a thousand damage Space Jam super tear on a platter. That's the price of playing a dedicated specialist in the mosh pit - sometimes you break your foes over your knee with the power of your specialization, and sometimes you go broke.

[Khobai]

im not saying brawlers should always be the star of the show

im all for a mixed meta with all three playstyles. I just think brawling is weak right now.

[pattonesque]

Brawling's absolutely not weak, the big AC/SRM combos and massed smaller lasers and the like are still very good. A lot of good brawling weapons got buffs, brawler mechs like the Atlas got hugely increased mobility, etc. It's in a good place.

Brawling was weak in March. I know 'cause I stubbornly decided to try to make brawlers work in the ERPPC meta and had probably my worst month ever.

[MechNexus]

I should clarify my prior position.

Brawling isn't hit or miss because it's weak - far from it. It's hit or miss due to poor map design (which is now getting sorted - nuPolar is bloody incredible, amazing work) and player behaviour. When it's given the right environment to do it's work, brawling is still a very competitive (and fun!) playstyle. In FP, where you can pick the right mech for the map and are likely in an organised group, Brawl is still working wonders. Woe upon ye who encounters a spirit bear rush.

Meanwhile, mid-long range setups may be suboptimal on CQB maps, but they're still passable, where brawl can't do a thing if the map/team didn't let them get in range, which is why mid-long range laservomit, gaussvomit, dakka and PPC setups are popular.

Hopefully as we get more map reworks that actually give brawlers room to breathe rather than hanging them out to dry, we'll see brawl more commonly used in QP. And like I said before - It's alive and well in FP.