164 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 23 June 2021 - 10:21 AM, said:

But if one playstyle is hit or miss

And another playstyle isnt hit or miss

The playstyle thats hit or miss should get buffed.

Brawling isn't hit or miss, its just more map dependent. You can't buff one playstyle so its balanced on all maps, just for it to be OMGWTFBBQ OP on half the maps.

[pbiggz]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 June 2021 - 07:18 PM, said:

Brawling isn't hit or miss, its just more map dependent. You can't buff one playstyle so its balanced on all maps, just for it to be OMGWTFBBQ OP on half the maps.

As has been said many times here, brawling is a specialist role, just like knife fighting, or sniping. You are 100% effective in your given role, and minimally effective everywhere else.

Im pretty sure Khobai just doesn't know how to choose his engagements, so he gets shredded, but if you take a 100+ alpha direwolf out into the open, you're asking to die and thats how it should be.

[Kanil]

1453 R, on 23 June 2021 - 02:45 PM, said:

Selecting 'Mech, then dropping into an effectively randomized map/gamemode means you throw your sign at the same time everybody else does.

Problem with this is once you figure out that rock works better than paper and scissors most of the time, there's no point in doing anything other than throwing rock over, and over, and over again. Sure, sometimes you get a map that's so heavily tilted against you that you're just screwed, but usually rock works out, and it sure as hell is better than picking paper and just blindly hoping you get Frozen City Assault, 'cause you usually don't.

QP currently asks you one question, ("what 'mech is broadly the strongest?") and there's only ever one answer: "rock". If QP asked more questions ("what 'mech is the strongest on Canyon Domination?"), eventually you'd come up with answers for all of them, but it wouldn't be just "rock, duh."

[Khobai]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 June 2021 - 07:18 PM, said:

Brawling isn't hit or miss, its just more map dependent. You can't buff one playstyle so its balanced on all maps, just for it to be OMGWTFBBQ OP on half the maps.

if its more map dependent its hit or miss

thats what hit or miss means

that theres performance inconsistency

And while you cant make every playstyle equal on every map... the fact is there arnt enough brawling maps where brawling is consistent compared to the number of maps where other playstyles are consistent.

Kanil, on 23 June 2021 - 09:08 PM, said:

Problem with this is once you figure out that rock works better than paper and scissors most of the time, there's no point in doing anything other than throwing rock over, and over, and over again. Sure, sometimes you get a map that's so heavily tilted against you that you're just screwed, but usually rock works out, and it sure as hell is better than picking paper and just blindly hoping you get Frozen City Assault, 'cause you usually don't.

QP currently asks you one question, ("what 'mech is broadly the strongest?") and there's only ever one answer: "rock". If QP asked more questions ("what 'mech is the strongest on Canyon Domination?"), eventually you'd come up with answers for all of them, but it wouldn't be just "rock, duh."

its exactly this

Its like playing rock paper scissors but throwing scissors fails 50% of the time. theres no reason to ever choose scissors at that point. statistically youre better off just throwing rock or paper every single time.

why would I play a short range brawler thats inconsistent on a lot of maps when a midrange skirmisher is far more consistent on those same maps?

of course brawling needs a buff. even if it comes in the form of map redesigns thats still a buff.

the new polar highlands is actually a pretty good map for all three playstyles. but I really cant see every map in the game getting a redesign like that. Plus not all the recent map redesigns have been brawler friendly, the new canyon network actually hurt brawlers compared to the old one.

pbiggz, on 23 June 2021 - 07:42 PM, said:

As has been said many times here, brawling is a specialist role, just like knife fighting, or sniping. You are 100% effective in your given role, and minimally effective everywhere else.

obviously brawling is a specialist role. thats not the issue.

the issue is the performance inconsistency of brawlers compared to other specialist roles.

other specialist roles are far more consistent. and even generalists can outperform brawlers consistently.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2021 - 10:43 PM.

[Thorqemada]

1453 R, on 23 June 2021 - 02:25 PM, said:

Yikes.

Okay.

So.

First of all: An AC/20 has significantly higher DPS than a Gauss rifle. The AC/20 fires and starts cycling - not only does the Goose Waffle have a longer cycle time for lower damage, but it's got to charge for a secondish before you can shoot. Goose waffles are bad in close fights unless they're heavy geese that hit for nearly two standard geese's worth of damage. AC/20s win brawls against goose waffles. Pretty much period.

Second of all: most traditional 'sniper' weapons are in fact pretty butt at close range. The ER Large Laser, both Sphere and Clan varieties, is hot, heavy, and has an abysmal burntime which makes it easy to outmaneuver and outdamage in close. Yes, you absolutely can shoot someone with an ERLL in a scrum, but that someone's four or five medium lasers they get for the exact same weight will blow you out of the water. To say nothing of the destructive power of massed SRMs or other brawly weapons, compared to ERLLs, AC/5s or AC/2s, or the aforementioned slow-firing, easy-to-blow-up Goose Waffle. Trust. Snipers are plenty concerned with being outbrawled.

Third, they're fixing map imbalances. Maps don't necessarily favor snipers over brawlers, they just don't give the brawlers a brawl for free by spawning everybody two hundred meters apart in a Circle of Sequels. You have to exert the minimum required effort of getting close to your enemy, while longer-ranged 'Mechs are given their fair chance to extract their toll from you before you do.

So yeah.

ANyways.

@Finn: Maker meant "please don't deliberately, mechanically build for Rock Paper Scissors". A game in which X hard-counters Y hard-counters Z hard-counters X is absolute garbage - there's no skill or gameplay involved there, simply rolling the dice to see if you get to be the hammer or the nail in any given engagement. Hard-coded rock paper scissors makes for awful, awful games.

DPS...oh this attractive number that is so convincingly mathematicaly correct - in certain artificial thought out testlab scenrarios!

As these testlab scnearios not occur ingame naturaly and it is not Mano a Mano without cover to fully utilize DPS but Team vs Team with the use of superior range weapons out of cover in a salvo arrangement your argument has no base to stand on!

More is not to say...

Edited by Thorqemada, 23 June 2021 - 10:21 PM.

[Vxheous]

Thorqemada, on 23 June 2021 - 10:19 PM, said:

DPS...oh this attractive number that is so convincingly mathematicaly correct - in certain artificial thought out testlab scenrarios!

As these testlab scnearios not occur ingame naturaly and it is not Mano a Mano without cover to fully utilize DPS but Team vs Team with the use of superior range weapons out of cover in a salvo arrangement your argument has no base to stand on!

More is not to say...

It's not artificial though, because taking equally skilled teams, one with brawl and one with range, if the brawl team can get within brawl range of the ranged team, that team wins, and often will win hard. The weapon damage/heat/cooldown numbers don't lie, and you can't balance a game based on player skill, or lack of skill.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 23 June 2021 - 10:17 PM, said:

the issue is the performance inconsistency of brawlers compared to other specialist roles.

other specialist roles are far more consistent. and even generalists can outperform brawlers consistently.

I've seen many LRMBoats, ERL mechs, AC2 mechs a fail at the specialist long range role doing 150dmg game after game.

What's the actual point here you might ask?

The only constant, and note I did not say consistent, is the player. I do well in everything I play. Doesn't matter if I'm Solo dropping or Group, this map or that mode.

Why? Because I am the constant and I play with a high level of consistency. Even on Old Polar Assault, I could produce solid results most games. Of course there are games it doesn't happen, and thst applies on ALL maps and modes.

If a player is not performing they need to look at their performance first. Only after their own performance and being sure they actually played the role and mech well can they say there might be issues.

I think you should record and upload some matches of you in brawlers. I am quite confident it's not a role issue and it's player issue. This would then confirm the role is not the issue as claimed.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 23 June 2021 - 11:33 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

its the simple Evolution of the Battle ...longrange kills Brawl in 90% of all Situations...the knights helpless against Muskets ,Archers,and Canonballs ..The Katanas useless in the Battlefields of the WK2.
Brawl is only a good Niche tactic in close Areas-Urbanfinghts for example, not for each other Battlefield, Thats why modern Tanks not have big Close Range Weapons, Battleships not have more rams (ramming further a Tactic in special situations)and modern Soldiers not have longe Melee Weapons as mainweapons...a shotgun and a Knife in a closed Romm is perfect and a Sniper helpless, in each other Fights in a Open Field, the Shotgunner is dead before her seeing what kill him...take the Weapons thats perfect for you Battlefield, or search the Battlefield thats perfect for you weapon.. you not have the both Solutions ,fight as Gneralist

Quote

[color=#959595]id like to point out another play style that is heavily discriminated against.. the CASUAL playstyle.[/color]

[color=#959595]You should not need a min max build and an aimbot just to do over 100 damage.[/color]

Thats not casual , thats only no experience with Multiplayer games, or bad in aiming and Tactical awarness=learn to play better ,search for Help (here many Gropus and Players thats helps)or play Singleplayer Games..Learn and adapt by yourself to become more as 100dmg ,thats the way in each Game, not force others to play in a style thats you become more as 100dmg.Good thats MWO not have the Easy Cheat Tech for all the "im will win without work" players

thats like the real life ...im hate Hygine and im psychotic ,so not whine not to find a Girlfriend...im hate to learn so im can not cry thats im have a poor Job...the Live is to learn in each Situation for your self or lost in each situation



“There are three kinds of men. The ones that learn by readin’. The few who learn by observation.
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.”


[color=#181818]― [/color]Will Rogers

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 24 June 2021 - 02:38 AM.

[denAirwalkerrr]

>brawling dead
>me and the bois with 12 brawl IS assaults: https://www.twitch.t...298?t=02h11m44s

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 24 June 2021 - 02:26 AM.

[Nerokar]

In my opinion the problem is not the weakness of the brawlers, but combination of maps, meta and skill floor/ceiling.

While most maps are at least OK'ish for all play styles, they require more of rudimentary knowledge of the battlefield from the brawler as from pokers/sniper. Simply press "W" to engage the enemy is less punishing at long/med range mechs, compared to brawlers, as at range you still can fight back and force the enemy into cover to regroup without being in danger of the enemy push. This is, in my opinion the main reason why new player have most problems with brawlers.
Brawlers are less forgiving.

With basic knowledge of the map the situation becomes somewhat different. As the positioning is driven by meta, forcing a nice firing line with, in best case, a death field with no cover between blues and reds and limited flanking possibilities is nice for mid/long range mechs. But it limits the brawlers in their action radius. With established firing lines it becomes quite difficult to push effectively as a brawler. Even for an avg. player with some exp.

The following point, is actually not a point on its own, its a sum of the both points above: Skill floor/ceiling.

While (in my opinion) the skill ceiling is comparably high for all play styles in mwo with only outliner in from of light brawlers,
the skill floor is what makes the difference here.

It is pretty strait forward: the basics like shaking the damage off, focus damaged components and concentrate fire are somewhat equally rewarding for all play styles.

But all the environmental "skills" like knowing best ways to close in without exposing the mech, watching the back, read the battlefield, have the plan B or the escape route are much more important if you have to cover more distance before you engage.
And all this without the majority of your team around you.

So the mid/long range fighter have simply lower skill floor, with most important basics in staying with team, poke carefully and rotate from left to right sometimes. Following this, will limit the consequences somewhat.
This is not the case for a brawler. He has to bring more to the table even to be able to engage. And when engaged, the mistakes are much more punishing as at higher distances.

So how to counter this? Def. not by buffing brawlers. Low buffs would change nothing as the mechs are already trong enough and big buffs would simply shift the meta towards two brawling murder balls.

Reducing skill floor for brawlers by reworking the most punishing maps would help. And reworked Polar Highlands was a good step towards this target.

[1453 R]

Kanil, on 23 June 2021 - 09:08 PM, said:

Problem with this is once you figure out that rock works better than paper and scissors most of the time, there's no point in doing anything other than throwing rock over, and over, and over again. Sure, sometimes you get a map that's so heavily tilted against you that you're just screwed, but usually rock works out, and it sure as hell is better than picking paper and just blindly hoping you get Frozen City Assault, 'cause you usually don't.

QP currently asks you one question, ("what 'mech is broadly the strongest?") and there's only ever one answer: "rock". If QP asked more questions ("what 'mech is the strongest on Canyon Domination?"), eventually you'd come up with answers for all of them, but it wouldn't be just "rock, duh."

I suppose for me, and for Maker, it's preferable to have a "broadly the strongest" fuzzy answer than to have a specific, crystal-clear, "Play this or get teamkilled for sabotaging" Only Possible Correct Answer Ever™ answer for any given map/mode. I see "what is the strongest 'Mech in quick play?" as an answer that's allowed to flex for individual pilot's preferences, styles, and tastes-of-the-time. The answer to "what is the strongest 'Mech for a game of Domination on Canyon Network" is "a heavy brawler with jump jets." There's no give, there's no flex, there's no room to do something else. If you get to pick your 'Mech after seeing "Canyon Domination" and you take anything but a heavyweight brawler-loadout 'Mech with enough jets to clear a canyon jump (28 meters, in the 'Mechlab readout), you're playing the game wrong and your teammates will be only to happy to tell you to extinguish yourself in the nearest convenient basement.

I'd rather the single broadly applicable fuzzy answer that lets me get away with playing stuff I like playing than having a multitude of questions that each have one, single, crystal-clear Correct Answer you're never allowed to get away from.

Edited by 1453 R, 24 June 2021 - 08:52 AM.

[Kubernetes]

How are people still having this conversation and how is Khobai still not getting it? Every discussion about enabling mech selection and sometimes LRMs discusses this point. QP's lack of mech selection of after map selection means that specialist builds are gambles. Take a sniper or LRM build and drop into Solaris City. Or take a brawler to old Polar. In faction and comp you see specialist builds you would never take into Quickplay because you know the map and your teammates ahead of time.

[1453 R]

Kubernetes, on 24 June 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

How are people still having this conversation and how is Khobai still not getting it? Every discussion about enabling mech selection and sometimes LRMs discusses this point. QP's lack of mech selection of after map selection means that specialist builds are gambles. Take a sniper or LRM build and drop into Solaris City. Or take a brawler to old Polar. In faction and comp you see specialist builds you would never take into Quickplay because you know the map and your teammates ahead of time.

That's exasctly true. it's also why high-level comp play and Commodity Warfare are so impossibly boring. it's always exactly the same fight with exactly the same 'Mechs, every single time, because that's The Optimal Strategy for that map/game. I'd absolutely hate for the entire game to be that stale and predictable all the time. it's already worse than it could be because Puglandians are so terrified of using the entire map instead of just rushing to the middle and fighting on the same two and a half grid squares all the time.

[Leone]

You must not've played much Faction warfare these past week months. So many folk've been taking suboptimal builds and strategies and many a times winning with them.

~Leone.

[FinnMcKool]

Vxheous, on 23 June 2021 - 06:55 PM, said:

I'm not sure what you were attempting to reply to, but while new players may be limited in the amount of mechs they own, there is nothing stopping them from making good informed decisions about the few mechs that they could buy off the start. There is nothing stopping a new player from building a proper "generalist" mech, aka mid range jack of all trades mech, and be useful most of the time in quick play.

i was talking about having a chance to pick your mech after the map is picked,
you see i would really like to pick my mech for the map
but new players wouldn't have the advantages that i do
there are so many details about this game, its not easy
to learn how it is, i don't want to make it harder on anyone.

that said i don't disagree with anything you've said, in fact
I'm at odds with myself about all of this, but i do apricate
the work that has been done, Balance has been pretty
good considering all the ups and downs, and the unintended
consciousness, I think it will never end , but i do thank
these guys for working at it.

[Alex Morgaine]

So I put together a pair of heavy IS and clan brawlers with what junk I got laying around. Stripped some engines and weapons to keep them reliable builds, after skimming this thread. Both specifically sub 200 optimal with later additions of a longer range low tonnage support option. Brawling is definitely hard in the current meta without a sort weapon for the long range pokes early on, but 2-3 tons for a lppc or lrm5, atm3 or mrm10 doesn't seem too bad while keeping the rest of the mech pure sub 200 optimal dps. Taking down 100 tons solo with a heavy mech still in working order is always a thrill, and getting in thier face while burning them down and still being combat capable is a blast. But yeah 100% no mid/long range option and the sitting game will drive you to Rambo charges. I think what the issue is... Meta means min max, and if you min max there will be lots of min. I had one fight with 2 damage cause the enemy stayed 500 m and no matter where I tried to poke I only found longer range then my weapons. That round sucked.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 23 June 2021 - 10:17 PM, said:

if its more map dependent its hit or miss

thats what hit or miss means

that theres performance inconsistency

By this definition everything is hit or miss in this game. You have one life, and there are tons of variables.

[Y E O N N E]

Kubernetes, on 24 June 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

How are people still having this conversation and how is Khobai still not getting it? Every discussion about enabling mech selection and sometimes LRMs discusses this point. QP's lack of mech selection of after map selection means that specialist builds are gambles. Take a sniper or LRM build and drop into Solaris City. Or take a brawler to old Polar. In faction and comp you see specialist builds you would never take into Quickplay because you know the map and your teammates ahead of time.

/thread

The only solution to this issue is give people the ability to select the 'Mech after the map; no reasonable amount of equipment tuning will overcome this without invalidating something else. If we nerf mid-range alpha weapons enough that brawlers can tank their way in regularly, then nobody runs the mid-range alpha weapons; they switch to the mid-range DPS weapons instead (AKA, exactly where the game was in JAN2021).

[Alex Morgaine]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 June 2021 - 06:07 PM, said:

By this definition everything is hit or miss in this game. You have one life, and there are tons of variables.

Huh. I believe the term you are looking for is "YOLO!!!"
Would it be possible to set a faction play set of 4 mech, following standard tonnage limits and all, and set it so you can see the map and have 4 choices, instead of every mech you own? Or have be a faction-less set with 400 tons limit or something? Still only one mech but nowyou can at last set a few Mechs. You can't pick from every thing you have, but you can at last limit your "oh gee I picked poorly" crowd. Possible without heavy programming?

Edited by Alex Morgaine, 24 June 2021 - 09:09 PM.

[Kanil]

1453 R, on 24 June 2021 - 08:41 AM, said:

... If you get to pick your 'Mech after seeing "Canyon Domination" and you take anything but a heavyweight brawler-loadout 'Mech with enough jets to clear a canyon jump (28 meters, in the 'Mechlab readout), you're playing the game wrong and your teammates will be only to happy to tell you to extinguish yourself in the nearest convenient basement...

First, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I understand your point of view better now and appreciate it.

I think there's still going to be quite a lot of room for individual preference, however. The folks who mostly drive lights aren't going to switch to a heavyweight jump capable brawler when Canyon Domination comes up, and I doubt I would either. All those new ramped hills and a lack of cover on top make it sound like a great place to bring my 2xHGauss Thanatos, which is admittedly heavy and short ranged, but doesn't really have the DPS to be a proper "brawler", and is too slot starved for even a single jump jet. It's a fun little hill humper and seems well suited to the map, but it isn't "rock" so I don't use it anymore.

As for my teammates, well... another build you can put on that Thanatos is the 2xGauss stealth ****fit, which is on the short list of most selfish builds in the game, and pretty much the only one I ever see other people using... and despite that reputation, no one's ever told me to go kill myself for daring to bring a Thanatos to the battlefield.

But yeah, given the amount of different answers we see to "what 'mech is broadly the strongest?" on display in current QP, I think asking a more narrow "what 'mech is the strongest on Canyon Domination?" will still yield a pretty diverse set of 'mechs. You'd certainly see me using something other than "rock" all day, every day.